God No One Has Seen At Any Time

[JLB]

Yes, I read what you wrote, but Hebrews 1:8 isn't about Jesus being God no matter the frequency it's quoted.

Jesus clearly created the heavens and the earth.

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

• For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:15-16






JLB

 

[JLB]

The "spirit of Christ" refers to the messiah anointing.

The Spirit of Christ refers to Jesus Christ; The Anointed One.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus clearly created the heavens and the earth.

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands. Hebrews 1:8-10


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

• For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. Colossians 1:15-16






JLB

The "image of the invisible God" isn't himself the invisible God, which is why he is called an image and the Father isn't. Jesus isn't YHWH. Already supplied all of the Biblical proof to the contrary above. We will have to disagree. A human didn't create the world.

 

[Runningman]

The Spirit of Christ refers to Jesus Christ; The Anointed One.

Prove it then. So far you have an assertion, but not anything explicit about the "Spirit of Christ" exclusively refereeing to Jesus in the Old Testament. So do you cede there is nothing about Jesus saying or doing anything in the Old Testament now? Doesn't exist.

 

[JLB]

Jesus isn't YHWH.

Jesus is YHWH.

JESUS created the heavens and the earth.

Jesus is not God the Father.

Jesus is God the Son; the only begotten of the Father.

 

[JLB]

Prove it then. So far you have an assertion, but not anything explicit about the "Spirit of Christ" exclusively refereeing to Jesus in the Old Testament. So do you cede there is nothing about Jesus saying or doing anything in the Old Testament now? Doesn't exist.

I gave you scripture already to prove my statement.

He is the LORD, YHWH the LORD God who spoke through the Old Testament prophets.


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


Here is an example.


For I am the LORD your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
Isaiah 43:3


What is the name of your Savior ?

 

[Runningman]

Jesus is YHWH.

Not according to Psalm 2:7 or Psalm 110:1.

What says Jesus is YHWH? Why do you think that?

JESUS created the heavens and the earth.

Verse?

Jesus is not God the Father.

Amen. Matt 11:25 and Acts 17:24 call the father the Lord of heaven and earth and Creator.

Jesus is God the Son; the only begotten of the Father.

"God the Son" isn't scripture so I don't believe that. All of the Bibles say "Son of God" which is what I believe.

 

[Runningman]

I gave you scripture already to prove my statement.

He is the LORD, YHWH the LORD God who spoke through the Old Testament prophets.


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11

I refuted this twice. The "spirit of Christ" is demonstrably not a person.

Here is an example.


For I am the LORD your God,
The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
Isaiah 43:3


What is the name of your Savior ?

I also answered this copy and paste as well. John 3:16-17 says God saves through Jesus. Jesus is the man who God sent according to scripture. John 17:3 says the Father is the only true God.

So you don't have anything explicit about the person Jesus existing in the Old Testament, saying or doing anything?

 

[JLB]

Not according to Psalm 2:7 or Psalm 110:1.

What says Jesus is YHWH? Why do you think that?

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:7-8


“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13


Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:3-5

• Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.

JLB

 

[Runningman]

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Revelation 1:7-8

Scarcely is Revelation 1:8 assigned to Jesus except for a few versions. I don't agree that this is Jesus speaking.

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13

This is Jesus speaking, but in the context he denies being God just a few sentences earlier and refuses worship.

Revelation 22
9But he said to me, “Do not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”

Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:3-5

• Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.

JLB

Seems we are just seeing this completely different. I am quite content with my perspective on this and maintain it's the Biblically accurate perspective.

 

[JLB]

Scarcely is Revelation 1:8 assigned to Jesus except for a few versions. I don't agree that this is Jesus speaking.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:1-8


“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13


Your whole Theological position is one of simply denying what the scriptures so plainly teach us.




JLB

 

[Runningman]

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:1-8

And it's not a quote by Jesus. Jesus isn't the Almighty according to scripture.

For example.

Jesus isn't Lord God Almighty in Revelation 21

22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13

Correct and then a few verses earlier Jesus denied beyond God. I believe you're employing proof texts that are not supported by the broader context. Do you see that now?

Your whole Theological position is one of simply denying what the scriptures so plainly teach us.

JLB

How about John 17:3 where Jesus said his Father is the only true God? Do you believe that?

 

[JLB]

And it's not a quote by Jesus. Jesus isn't the Almighty according to scripture.

For example.

Jesus isn't Lord God Almighty in Revelation 21

22But I saw no temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

Is a man’s son that he begets fully human?

By saying the Son is Almighty God doesn’t diminish the Father as being Almighty God.


“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13


Jesus is also called the Alpha and Omega, here in Revelation 22, just as He is in Revelation 1.




JLB

 

[Runningman]

Is a man’s son that he begets fully human?

By saying the Son is Almighty God doesn’t diminish the Father as being Almighty God.


“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13


Jesus is also called the Alpha and Omega, here in Revelation 22, just as He is in Revelation 1.




JLB

Then can you prove Revelation 1:8 is a quote by Jesus? Most Bibles do not assign red lettering to that verse because it doesn't make sense and it clearly isn't Jesus speaking in the context.

 

[GodsGrace]

If it weren't for the glaringly painful lack of Biblical support for Jesus saying or doing anything in state pre-existent to being human I may give that consideration. I also am not too keen on how you selected a version of Ephesians 4:10 that says "universe" but that word isn't in the actual text.

For the record, I do believe Jesus came down from heaven in the sense that he he existed in the bosom of the Father, or heart of the Father, as some versions of John 1:18 say. That's to mean Jesus pre-existed in God's heart, His plans and foreknowledge, before God's word manifested a human. There isn't a good reason to build a doctrine about humans literally pre-existing their physical life.

If there were even one example of Jesus literally pre-existing, even uttering a single word or doing something, in the Old Testament I may be inclined to see this differently. Alas, there is no such proof.

OK.
The above is the post to which I wanted to respond.

Your second paragraph explains the Trinity.

So I was wondering why you think you're not a Trinitarian because you're intelligent and I'm sure you've thought of everything.

Just a question: Do you think that we Trinitarians believe that Jesus existed before His birth as Jesus?

And you're right, The word UNIVERSE did not exist in biblical times.
In Genesis 1 where it states the heavens and the earth, the heavens means the universe.
They didn't know about the universe back then. They called everything they saw the heavens.

 

[GodsGrace]

Then can you prove Revelation 1:8 is a quote by Jesus? Most Bibles do not assign red lettering to that verse because it doesn't make sense and it clearly isn't Jesus speaking in the context.

Just saw this above.

The message to the 7 churches is Jesus speaking.

Revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Rev 1:7 states He is coming in the clouds. WHO is coming back in the clouds?

Isaiah 41:4 "I the Lord God am first, and with the last, I am He".
WHO is the above speaking? Is it God?

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who WAS and who is TO COME,
the Almighty".
My NASB has it in red. WHO is the above speaking of?

 

[Runningman]

Just saw this above.

The message to the 7 churches is Jesus speaking.

Revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Rev 1:7 states He is coming in the clouds. WHO is coming back in the clouds?

Isaiah 41:4 "I the Lord God am first, and with the last, I am He".
WHO is the above speaking? Is it God?

Rev 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who WAS and who is TO COME,
the Almighty".
My NASB has it in red. WHO is the above speaking of?

But the message Jesus spoke to the church wasn't from himself because God and Jesus aren't the same person even if they actually do have things in common.

For example, verse 1 of Revelation introduces this information so it's clear Jesus is the messenger:

Revelation 1
1This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John,

After that, the message to each of the 7 churches concludes with something like, "He who has an ear like him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." That wouldn't be Jesus' message to the churches, but God's message.

 

[Runningman]

So I was wondering why you think you're not a Trinitarian because you're intelligent and I'm sure you've thought of everything.

I started out as a Trinitarian many years ago in high school. Didn't believe it at first, but I had a willingness and eventually accepted it. I remember never having debated it before until suddenly one day someone challenged me on it. I had to discover the hard way it's utterly indefensible. As someone who is strict about sola scriptura, that was crushing. Eventually I found myself asking God what's true because I needed to know for closure and let's just say He made it clear that Jesus is His beloved Son who He sent. What the Bible had been saying all along was suddenly opened to me. From that point forward I just got it.

Just a question: Do you think that we Trinitarians believe that Jesus existed before His birth as Jesus?

Who Jesus actually is isn't standardized. Some say the Son of Man is not the Son of God or that Jesus isn't the same person as the Spirit of Jesus. Just comes across as an attempt to keep the goal posts moving. From my perspective, the man Jesus (Yeshua) is still a man and always will be. He is the Son of Man and the Son of God.

 

[Randy]

And you're right, The word UNIVERSE did not exist in biblical times.
In Genesis 1 where it states the heavens and the earth, the heavens means the universe.
They didn't know about the universe back then. They called everything they saw the heavens.

Scholars who are members of a translation teams would inform one that word for word translations are not the same as meaning-to-meaning translations between Koine Greek and english.

Context comes into play just as it does in english.
Is He right or wrong?
Take the next right.
A right angle.

The most common meaning and usage of this word, https://biblehub.com/greek/aio_nas_165.htm , is all time in all time periods or forever in English.

In the context of made or creation its meaning changes to all things.

We wouldn't read through whom He "made" the forever.
A few translations do read through whom He made the ages.
While others read through whom He made the worlds or universe.

Hebrews 1:2
but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.

We wouldn't read that the forever was formed at God's command.
Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

But there is certainly more clear witness in the NT to the Son who was before the world began to those who are willing to hear which is all that is needed to refute a belief that Jesus's life began as a man even setting aside the nature found in the Son.

 

[JLB]

Then can you prove Revelation 1:8 is a quote by Jesus? Most Bibles do not assign red lettering to that verse because it doesn't make sense and it clearly isn't Jesus speaking in the context.

“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8


Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.

I thought you understood this.

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”
Revelation 22:12-13

The book of Revelation is just that, it reveals who Jesus Christ is.


Jesus is YHWH, the LORD.

The LORD of the Old Testament who spoke through the mouth of the prophets.

He is the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last.


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10-11


“Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts:
I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God. Isaiah 44:6

And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation 1:17-19














JLB