God of the Bible is not all loving.

[journeymanisnothing]

Yeah, my grand kids call me Papa too.

I love hearing it and if they spend the night I don't have to sleep with one eye open, because none of my grandchildren are depraved.

Man does not create his own brain.

I guess that's why I said, "...use the brains God gave us."
See, even in something as ridiculous as this you can't seem to comprehend a silly joke I made.
I really don't know how to take you Freddy.
I can tell you this much about myself. If a person can't understand what I am saying to them without any Bible discussion at all I don't bother reading the rest of what they say.
I hope you're aware now that I don't need scripture reference to prove God created our brains. A slow reading course would help. It helped me.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Agreed... but that is not an example of God changing His mind. God laid out what He would do and He did it.

Fine, but what about His plan to wipe out mankind before the flood ?
"And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." (Gen 6:7)
Had Noah not "found grace in His eyes", God would have destroyed everything He had made.
So God changed His mind.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Fine, but what about His plan to wipe out mankind before the flood ?
"And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." (Gen 6:7)
Had Noah not "found grace in His eyes", God would have destroyed everything He had made.
So God changed His mind.

Anthropomorphism. God didn't change His Mind, He knew everything that would happen, and all things that would exist IF the fall didn't happen. Every possibility.

Recall, God is infinite in being, the time-space-continuum exists IN God. God spans past present and future, and everything surrounding that.

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built! (1 Ki. 8:27 NKJ)

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:17 NKJ)

[Which is why Calvin & crew were wrong to suppose God must predestine events to ensure they happen. God knows what happened even before things began. He tweaks history to accomplish His plans. God predestines His elect to be saved BECAUSE some might not make it if He did not, and He will not tolerate the loss of one of those He knows are His. But He does not predestine unto damnation]

In other words, God sits at the End of History and can look back at everything that happened, and if there was anything that didn't culminate in what He wanted, He simply tweaked history to correct it. That's not predestination. He is not causing events. God SPANS and CONTAINS all history, and everything surrounding that bubble.

9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying,`My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. (Isa. 46:9-11 NKJ)

The proof God knew the fall would occur, and that the FLOOD wasn't Him changing His mind, is seen in the DNA of every "kind" of life. God put DNA code that gets activated only in an environment that would exist AFTER the flood.

Ponder all God created from micro to macro, and the infinite intellectual capacity of God will be illustrated before your eyes. Its mind boggling.

I am convinced God took 6 24 hour days to create heavens and earth, because He wanted to savor every moment, and create the 7-day week model for us.

God didn't want to take more time than 6 days, that wouldn't be perfect.

He could easily create the "New Heavens and New Earth" in an "instant of time":

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
(2 Pet. 3:10-13 NKJ)

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Anthropomorphism. God didn't change His Mind, He knew everything that would happen, and all things that would exist IF the fall didn't happen. Every possibility.

Not only did he know but he made things happen according to the "law of His faith" or called a "labor of His love "..
"Let there be" and that seen "was God good."

Philippians 2:13-14 informs us. That it is God who works in dying mankind to "both" give them ears hear the will and empower us to do it to His good pleasure . Jesus the Son of man empowered by the father not seen did it with delight

Some like Jonah kicked against the prick and wanted to die knowing God would have mercy . Because of the preaching of the gospel he was sent to do and moved.

Philippians 2:13-1413 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Remember he is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires no one can turn him. He mightily makes or heart soft with the water of his living abiding word Ask your ownself. Who makes your heart soft today ?

Job 23:13-16 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

 

[GodsGrace]

I don't have too. A wise person will use a dictionary to avoid spurious statements.

We can't walk around with a dictionary under our arm.
As we speak to our fellow humans, we ASSUME that they know what some words mean.
Love would be one of them.
IF more info is needed, THEN you can explain what TYPE of love a person means.

Anyone can peruse online and they're free. Took me 1 minute.
The Greek word agape (LOVE) is often translated “love” in the New Testament. How is “agape love” different from other types of love? The essence of agape love is goodwill, benevolence, and willful delight in the object of love.

True.
But if I just love my husband, I certainly have good will toward him,
I'll be benevolent to him, and I will delight in him.
See? It's easy FF. You just like to make it difficult.
And anyway, agape means God's love...a love that comes from God.
(and we mess up that type of love too).

So does God take "willfull delight" and "benevolence" to those He sends to hell. LMAO... I think NOT.

We seem to be serving two different Gods.
Mine sends no one to hell.
Mine feels sorrow for those that end up not serving Him and serving satan instead.
Romans 6 We are slaves to the one we serve. The one we serve. It's our choice.

Proof verses would be nice and explanation of why I am wrong.

Coming up.

 

[Fastfredy0]

ut what about His plan to wipe out mankind before the flood ?
"And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." (Gen 6:7)

God did destroy man during the flood. It was a "do over". You're trying to make a case on a technicality.
I gave you tons of verses to refute your claim. God cannot be all knowing and yet change His mind. God cannot be PERFECT and change His mind. I explained the apparent contradictions saying they're anthropomorphic and saying God does not lie of contradict Himself so He can say He'll do "X" and then do "Y" instead.
I doubt you can find any theologian that thinks God chances His mind (not that that is proof, but you're in a vast minority).

 

[GodsGrace]

I have come to believe all that befalls a believer Good or Bad isn't a coincidence .

God allows it .for a blessing and also to grow us.

PTSD has had me question my purpose .

Money or a good job can give meaning but it ultimately what I find to fill that hole with PTSD and find meaning won't be remembered when I am but some VA marked headstone . What I do for Jesus does. I can control little in that .

I can't plan tomorrow like God can

Jason,
God allowing something....
and God predestinating something...
are 2 totally different ideas.

You're trying to go to a reformed church with non-reformed beliefs (as least some of them).
This is a recipe for no good ending.
You can't go to a church where you agree with the theology?
There must be dozens by you.

 

[Fastfredy0]

We can't walk around with a dictionary under our arm.
As we speak to our fellow humans, we ASSUME that they know what some words mean.
Love would be one of them.
IF more info is needed, THEN you can explain what TYPE of love a person means.

Again, you avoid the definition of LOVE when talking about LOVE and thus are timid to lay a foundation for discussion. Love is a volition to favor. You therefore can to a degree measure LOVE quantitatively by seeing how much a person favors someone or something.
Since God says LOVE is a bond of unity (Col. 3:14) one can measure LOVE by measuring how much to entities are united. Obviously, you can't beat the LOVE of God if one is IN CHRIST. Simple ... yet you avoid the definition because it tends to lay waste to your assertions.

True.
But if I just love my husband, I certainly have good will toward him,
I'll be benevolent to him, and I will delight in him.
See? It's easy FF. You just like to make it difficult.
And anyway, agape means God's love...a love that comes from God.
(and we mess up that type of love too).

Well, God has shown us aspects of His love. Col 3:14, 1 Corinthians 13:6 ... so, though God's love is different to some degree than ours, there is a similarity and you refuse to define LOVE or consider God's words when you characterizes LOVE because it doesn't fit your narrative IMO.

We seem to be serving two different Gods.

Hmmm, that would imply that at least one of us is going to hell. *giggle* I think you mean to say our theology differs on some points.

We seem to be serving two different Gods.
Mine sends no one to hell.
Mine feels sorrow for those that end up not serving Him and serving satan instead.

Your feelings and interpretations don't determine what God does. Personally, I vote that everyone goes to heaven, buy my desires don't determine anything.

Romans 6 We are slaves to the one we serve. The one we serve. It's our choice.

Agreed ... we all choose to serve sin unless God causes us to change of minds. John 1:12-13


The thread is: God of the Bible is not all loving
If you're going to discuss the topic of the thread you need to define God's Love and define ALL LOVING. ALL LOVING is not a biblical term so define it as you will. For example, God loves everyone to some degree so if that your definition of ALL LOVING then I would agree. If your definition of ALL LOVING is God loves everyone the same (those in hell and heaven the same) then I disagree.
I don't know what your talking about if you won't define what your talking about.

 

[jasonc]

Jason,
God allowing something....
and God predestinating something...
are 2 totally different ideas.

You're trying to go to a reformed church with non-reformed beliefs (as least some of them).
This is a recipe for no good ending.
You can't go to a church where you agree with the theology?
There must be dozens by you.

No one church will I agree with .

The arminists here in general have no accountability.meaning as is the case with a church that the pastor died.thr replacements ran it to the ground .

My church worked with them. That large church sided with the pastors of two other non reformed church often he died .that changed .it was to teach the lost .

You really don't know that God calls people to churches if you say that .

Like I said you don't attend any reformed church to actually hear .only my church and one other goes to the abortion clinic to stop the murder .

That's our thing. Other churches do that .we also sing old hymns versus this Rock based worship and solid theology .other churches can and do but it is here i go.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Not only did he know but he made things happen according to the "law of His faith" or called a "labor of His love "..
"Let there be" and that seen "was God good."

Philippians 2:13-14 informs us. That it is God who works in dying mankind to "both" give them ears hear the will and empower us to do it to His good pleasure . Jesus the Son of man empowered by the father not seen did it with delight

Some like Jonah kicked against the prick and wanted to die knowing God would have mercy . Because of the preaching of the gospel he was sent to do and moved.

Philippians 2:13-1413 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Remember he is of one mind and always does whatsoever his soul desires no one can turn him. He mightily makes or heart soft with the water of his living abiding word Ask your ownself. Who makes your heart soft today ?

Job 23:13-16 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:

If you are saying God "made things happen" because He permitted it occur, I agree. Satan was acting on his own when he tempted Eve, and Adam on his own when he chose to rebel with his wife. Yet God permitted these events occur.

But if you say "He made it happen" causing Satan to rebel, causing Eve and Adam to rebel, I strongly disagree.

But the tension exists in scripture. It is said "God sends the strong delusion" but as we study the context, we learn the "sending" occurred when "He who now restrains" satanic deception is "taken out of the way", the Holy Spirit no longer prevents the full manifestation of the power of Satan to deceive people via a "deluding influence" (NAS) [ἐνέργειαν πλάνης , satanic "energy of error" that gives people experiences that "teach lies"].


So God is sending it, but not causing it:

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(2 Thess. 2:6-12 NKJ)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Anthropomorphism. God didn't change His Mind, He knew everything that would happen, and all things that would exist IF the fall didn't happen. Every possibility.

Then He knew He would change His mind.

Recall, God is infinite in being, the time-space-continuum exists IN God. God spans past present and future, and everything surrounding that.
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain You. How much less this temple which I have built! (1 Ki. 8:27 NKJ)
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col. 1:17 NKJ)
[Which is why Calvin & crew were wrong to suppose God must predestine events to ensure they happen. God knows what happened even before things began. He tweaks history to accomplish His plans. God predestines His elect to be saved BECAUSE some might not make it if He did not, and He will not tolerate the loss of one of those He knows are His. But He does not predestine unto damnation]
In other words, God sits at the End of History and can look back at everything that happened, and if there was anything that didn't culminate in what He wanted, He simply tweaked history to correct it. That's not predestination. He is not causing events. God SPANS and CONTAINS all history, and everything surrounding that bubble.

Agreed.

9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying,`My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. (Isa. 46:9-11 NKJ)

The proof God knew the fall would occur, and that the FLOOD wasn't Him changing His mind, is seen in the DNA of every "kind" of life. God put DNA code that gets activated only in an environment that would exist AFTER the flood.

That DNA was carried forward by all the creatures of the old world that were included on the ark.

Ponder all God created from micro to macro, and the infinite intellectual capacity of God will be illustrated before your eyes. Its mind boggling.
I am convinced God took 6 24 hour days to create heavens and earth, because He wanted to savor every moment, and create the 7-day week model for us.
God didn't want to take more time than 6 days, that wouldn't be perfect.
He could easily create the "New Heavens and New Earth" in an "instant of time":
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.
11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
(2 Pet. 3:10-13 NKJ)

I pray for Jesus' quick return.

 

[Hopeful 2]

God did destroy man during the flood. It was a "do over". You're trying to make a case on a technicality.

Thus, the case is made.

I gave you tons of verses to refute your claim. God cannot be all knowing and yet change His mind. God cannot be PERFECT and change His mind. I explained the apparent contradictions saying they're anthropomorphic and saying God does not lie of contradict Himself so He can say He'll do "X" and then do "Y" instead.
I doubt you can find any theologian that thinks God chances His mind (not that that is proof, but you're in a vast minority).

Why can't He know that He would change His mind ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, that is my stance. God is the First Cause of all things. The proof is simple.

I agree with you.

Premise 1: God knows everything (aside: Open Theists disagree) ... I can give proof verses if requested

Agreed.

Premise 2: God does not change ... I can give proof verses if requested

Agreed.

Premise 3: Even God cannot know what nothing will do. Nothing comes from nothing ( Greek: οὐδὲν ἐξ οὐδενός; Latin: ex nihilo nihil fit)

Don't understand the above.
You stated that God knows EVERYTHING.
I agree.
Everything means everything.
I proffer that we don't even understand what NOTHING is.
But surely God does because He knows everything.

Conclusion: Since God has always known everything (otherwise He would not be immutable if His knowledge changed)

Agreed.
God has always known everything.

and since God knew everything when we were nothing (before the foundation of the earth)

Agreed.
God always knew everything.

then God's knowledge is dependent upon what He causes

Disagree.
God knows EVERYTHING....
even what He does NOT cause directly (secondary causes).
Are you saying that God does not know how secondary causes are going to turn out UNLESS He Himself predestinates or decrees what is to happen?

Then...
How do you mean GOD KNOWS EVERYTHING?
You're limiting God's knowledge to only the things HE directly causes to happen.
Since You also believe in secondary causes, then God is limited in His knowledge and He is
not omniscient.

Since God is omniscient, your conclusion is wrong.

(we are His instruments; His secondary causes of whatever).

I'd say, and correct me if I'm wrong, that reformed theology teaches that God predestinates and decrees everything that is to happen. At least this is what Calvin believed. Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5.
And this is what the Westminster Confession teaches. Chapter 3: God's Eternal Decisions - Paragraph 1
And this is what the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith teaches: Chapter 3: God's Decree - Paragraph 1

So before God created time He knew He would cause Moses to pray and God knew how He would react. God does it for our benefit for it is better to give than receive and God is always better than us and thus we never give God anything; we can't give Him anything for then He would not be immutable, then we would be better in giving than God in receiving.

Huh?
WHY would anyone pray that believes God has already predestinated/decreed everything?
Does Piper pray for his children's salvation?

If he does, then I'd say he's not a real calvinist.
Of course John Calvin did say that real calvinists pray.
He gave the reasons, but they make no sense.

I do agree that we pray most times for our own benefit.
Thanks-giving, praise, worship, etc.

... we don't do anything independent of God .... Acts 17:28 in Him we live and breathe and have our being ... this also show in the verse that says all things would cease to exist if God were to stop causing them to exist (I'm to lazy to find the verse but could if needed).

Agreed.

This also explains Job 35:7-8 which says God does not react to what we do because God reacts to what He causes us to do.
Sorry, this is deep in the weeds.

God reacts to what He causes us to do....
So, I make my friend be happy by buying her a new car...
and then I react to her reaction which I knew would be happiness.

Ooooook.

... because God causes you to pray ... your sanctification is caused by God ... I can give plenty of verses to show this. Man is NEVER the cause of God doing anything.

Agreed.
But, I'd say except in the matter of prayer.
If someone is healed from a sickness because of prayer, it's because God KNEW they would pray and He would heal them. But it's not that God predestinated either the sickness or the prayer or the healing.
He just KNEW all this would happen.
Omniscient remember?

God controls you and not the other way around.

Neither controls neither.
100%.

God controls how He wanted the universe to be set up.
He made a nice home for us here on earth. The big Garden of Eden.
Plants, animals, humans - everything.
He even made a plan for us to get saved due to the fall that was coming.

Man controls whether or not he wishes to be saved.
God leaves this up to each one of us.
Love.....
Love cannot be forced or it is NOT love.
Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, As I live, declares the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die, O house of Israel?

1 Timothy 2:4
[God]desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,
(all people...the way it's understood by the reformed: TYPES of people).

God cannot have a perfect world if man is in anyway controlling things. Granted, man thinks he operates independently. (aside: usually this argument is countered with the problem of evil which both sides have issues with and I'm not going to go there.... this is deep enough into the woods)

In fact, we do not have a perfect world.

You're looking at things from man's point of view and that is the wrong vantage point. God is in charge and His point of view and His purpose is the only thing that matters. You need to ask "What is God's purpose" and then you will have your answer.

What IS His purpose?
This was never discussed.
I'd like a reply to this.


and...

I was reading my Italian bible the other evening and I noticed something....

2 Corinthians 4:4
3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,

Here's the only topic I'd like you to answer.
Q: Verse 4 states that satan blinds the minds of the unbelieving.

Does God blind the minds from birth...
or does satan blind the minds of those that are unbelieving?

 

[GodsGrace]

The spirit of lies .

Is God power not enough to do what?

There is no sufferings after this life .Hell is daily sufferings we experience living in dead bodies. Its appointed to all men to suffer and die once not to suffer and suffer with no end in sight lake Limbo or Purgatory

Yoked with Christ the daily burdens of hell is made light with a future living faith that goes beyond the grave

Tthe unbelievers return to dust and thier temporal spirit returns to Father who gave it under the letter of the Law "death never" to rise to new life .

We either have an eternal soul and spirit or we don't.

It cannot be that some persons have a soul that will live on and
some persons have a soul that will end at death.

Every human being is the same in composition:
Body
Soul
Spirit

 

[GodsGrace]

No one church will I agree with .

The arminists here in general have no accountability.meaning as is the case with a church that the pastor died.thr replacements ran it to the ground .

My church worked with them. That large church sided with the pastors of two other non reformed church often he died .that changed .it was to teach the lost .

You really don't know that God calls people to churches if you say that .

Like I said you don't attend any reformed church to actually hear .only my church and one other goes to the abortion clinic to stop the murder .

That's our thing. Other churches do that .we also sing old hymns versus this Rock based worship and solid theology .other churches can and do but it is here i go.

I'll give you this Jason,
The reformed church is hanging tight----I respect them for this.
I believe this is also true for the Assy of God.
The rest are breaking up. At least the big denominations; I don't know all of them.
Ditto for the CC. I sit here in shock at what's going on.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Then He knew He would change His mind.

Agreed.

That DNA was carried forward by all the creatures of the old world that were included on the ark.

I pray for Jesus' quick return.

Either He did change His Mind, and therefore DNA wasn't first created with the code to adapt to life after the flood, or He did NOT change His Mind, and therefore programmed DNA to adapt after the Flood. Can't have both.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Either He did change His Mind, and therefore DNA wasn't first created with the code to adapt to life after the flood, or He did NOT change His Mind, and therefore programmed DNA to adapt after the Flood. Can't have both.

Why would Noah's original DNA be insufficient for life after the flood ?
You present a straw-man argument.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Why would Noah's original DNA be insufficient for life after the flood ?
You present a straw-man argument.

All life, insect plant animal, have DNA code that is activated by the environment that would only exist AFTER the flood. Prior to the flood, the entire earth was like a green house, equal temperature. Creation.com says plants were more than 10x in abundance then, then now. Coal proves that.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

We either have an eternal soul and spirit or we don't.

It cannot be that some persons have a soul that will live on and
some persons have a soul that will end at death.

Every human being is the same in composition:
Body
Soul
Spirit

Born again believers do have a soul that will not die . Natural uncovered mankind under the letter of the law "death" has no future hope after the grave .

The temporal spirit which again is subject to the letter (death)

Thou shall not not or you will die and the corrupted flesh returns to the dust and temporal spirit returns to God who again gave it under the letter of the law "death"

Catholics, have turned death into suffering, wondering. . . sufferings, wondering with no end in sight in a place called Limbo of Purgatory .

 

[Mr. G Lee]

But if you say "He made it happen" causing Satan to rebel, causing Eve and Adam to rebel, I strongly disagree.

God is not evil.

I would think God who is Light and not only that he can only create it temporal (Sun and Moon)

He created a evil (darkness) to he could form light (the gospel)

Times he would send lying spirit (lift his hand of mercy) and bring a evil nation against the Jew when they refused to hear God .

2 Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil against thee.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.