God of the Bible is not all loving.

[Mr. G Lee]

Perhaps you can help me, then. I have never been able to consciously choose any of the beliefs that I have, and I would like to be able to do that. If you think that you can consciously choose to believe things, I wonder if you might explain how you do it. What do you do at the last moment to instantly change your one state of belief to another? What is it that you do that would allow you to say, "OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I choose to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

Conversion is the work of Gods labor of love that works in to both hear the will and empower dying mankind to do it according to his good pleasure Jesus the Son of man did it with delight some murmur

Philippians 2: 1314 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

God who brings to our memory the former things he has taught us consciously works in us as his labor of love .

John 14 25-26 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Memory one of the better gifts. He brings each other to memory that we might lift each other up.. The mutual spirit of faith

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

 

[Fastfredy0]

We couldn't discuss FREE WILL because you didn't like my definition of it.
Now we can't discuss LOVE because, somehow, I didn't explain it to your liking.

Agreed ... you either don't give a definition or give an incomplete definition. Definition - A statement of the meaning of a word, phrase, or term, as in a dictionary entry.
As best I can recall, when it came to FREE WILL (a term not found in the Bible save in regard to giving) you refuse to expound on what man was FREE from when making a choice for salvation.

I am ASSUMING God is merciful?

The question is not whether God is merciful; we both agree to that. The context of the discussion requires an explanation of who God is merciful to. You seem to think that because God is merciful He is merciful to everyone without exception IMO. There is not verse to support that claim and much empirical data to show it is false.

I NEVER said anyone could be saved by works.
I NEVER said someone could be saved without God.
Try reading Romans 1 and 2 and then come here and tell us all what is spoke about...
Without bringing any presupposed ideas to it.
Very bad exegesis BTW...

You said people can somehow be saved without knowledge of Christ. The bible says people are saved by faith in Christ and you say there's another method, said method you never outlined when asked for specifics.
You say I have bad exegesis and yet you teach a second gospel of salvation. Paul in Galatians does not speak kindly of such doctrines.

Sincerely FF, you need to stop reading all those scholarly books and get back to reading the Word of God...the bible.

I do both and I leverage the knowledge of others like the Bereans did



Re: Pervenient Grace

Many of your terms are not found in the bible.

Agreed, many terms are use to summaries doctrines in scripture. There is no scripture to back up the doctrine of Pervenient Grace. It is made up to try to explain how man can seek God even though the Bible says NO ONE SEEKS GOD (and other issues dealing with the depravity of man).

My conclusion is quoting
1 John 4:8 stating that GOD IS LOVE.

This lacks foundation?

Yes, it lacks foundation. God is love is true. But you won't define what LOVE is. I gave you a hint.... look up AGAPE. Then look up verses that describe the characteristics of God's love. The title of the thread is "God of the Bible is not all loving" but you refuse to define LOVE and thus your arguments lack foundation.
Aside: there is also the need to define all in ALL Loving as that is not a biblical term ... but I'd settle for you defining LOVE. I defined it. You can start there and tell me where I am wrong or you disagree.
Aside2: Your arguments depend to some degree or your refusing to define what your talking about

I don't know ANYONE on this forum, or any other forum, that believes he has saved himself.

*giggle* ... you believe you saved yourself. God did His part and then left it up to you and you decided via your own Free Will to believe. Thus you were the determining factor in your salvation and deserve to be praised for your independent show of righteousness. I, on the other hand, believe my faith is a gift that God gave me that caused me to be saved. I did not believe on my own like you, God is the cause of my faith. I believe in monergistic salvation and you go by the buddy system (synergism).

You spit in the face of Our Lord which such comments.
As if His sacrifice was useless, of no worth.
Unbelievable.

You take partial credit for your salvation. I take no credit for my salvation.
*spitting* is a spurious argument (ad hominum for dramatic affect) .... probably a ToS violation... but you probably mean well.

Again, you must not read what members state.
Who said we control God?
Why make such outlandish comments?

You imply that you control God when you say that God saves you according to your 'independent' decision to believe. God sets things up for you to be saved and then puts you in control such that your FREE WILL (decision independent of God) controls whether or not God saves you. You are the determining factor as to whether or not God adopts you. Your WORK of independently believing (salvific faith) saved you. Assuming your doctrine is correct, you control God; you cause God to save you by your decision to believe. Congrats
The logical conclusion of your doctrine is what is outlandish.

 

[Hopeful 2]

... but who caused Moses and Hezekiah to pray? Perhaps you're deist and propose that people and things operate on their own. Scripture (Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]) says our wicked and righteous acts do not affect God which leads one to conclude that God caused them to pray and then decided to react to what God had caused).
Job 23:13 But He is unchangeable, and who can turn Him? And what He wants to do, that He does. Your interpretation of Moses and Hezekiah's prayers causes God to react contradictd scripture.

If citing, and agreeing with, the fact that men have the option of loving God or not, makes me a deist", then I am a deist.

My definition is from the dictionary. You are welcome to give your definition of EMOTIONAL as long as you use a legitimate source and we can go with that.

You have used the definition you found to make a suspect decision.
God does have emotions.

God does and has done so many times.
1 Samuel 15:29 Also the Splendor and Glory and Eminence of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”
Job 23:13 But He is unchangeable, and who can turn Him? And what He wants to do, that He does.
Malachi 3:6a For I the Lord do not change;
... I could list a many more verses. To know God better one must study God's attributes.

God has "changed His mind" on a few occasions, so either 1 Sam.'s author was wrong, or his words only applied in certain contexts.
I'll go with the latter.

You have not defined EMOTIONAL. I did define it and using my definition from the dictionary I believed I proved God is NOT EMOTIONAL because God does not change and to be EMOTIONAL means to change one's feelings. Now, if you want to supply your definition of EMOTIONAL, then we could go with that. If your definition varies from mine then I might even agree with you.

If unemotional means unable or unwilling to show love, the definition doesn't apply to God.
It is written..."And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased." (Luke 3:22)

 

[Alfred Persson]

You need to study the "hypostatic union". There are attributes of Christ that are not divine. For example, Christ is not bodily omnipresent. Christ's human nature is not all knowing (“But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the father” (Mark 13:32)).
So your mentioning the characteristics of Christ's human nature is irrelevant.

We disagree. Not much sense continuing as we perceive God using different standards.

I am not confusing the natures, not even discussing them.

Your disagreement is odd, its obvious we are talking about whence emotion springs from, the Person (not nature). If your "nature" were on life support, in a brain dead body....it would feel no emotion.

God subsists in Three Divine Persons, not three emotionless machines.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Agreed ... you either don't give a definition or give an incomplete definition. Definition - A statement of the meaning of a word, phrase, or term, as in a dictionary entry.
As best I can recall, when it came to FREE WILL (a term not found in the Bible save in regard to giving) you refuse to expound on what man was FREE from when making a choice for salvation.

Free will is to do the will of the unseen father and finish it.

The spiritual food our daily bread the disciples knew not of .J

John 4:33-34King James Version33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat?Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

The born again believers that were empowered to both first hear and moved to do the good will of God Jesus the Son of man did not murmur empowered by the Father his burden was made lighter. Jonah used as a example of the three day and night demonstration. Did the will and did murmur he wanted to die .

God is not served by the flesh of dying mankind in any way shape or form

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Who moved you?

 

[Fastfredy0]

God has "changed His mind" on a few occasions, so either 1 Sam.'s author was wrong, or his words only applied in certain contexts.
I'll go with the latter.

If God can change His mind then all His promises are suspect.
If God can change His mind then the following verse is a lie: 1 Samuel 15:29 Also the Splendor and Glory and Eminence of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”

Note: I cite verses, you do not.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I am not confusing the natures, not even discussing them.

You seem to be doing so IMO. You state attributes of Christ's human nature and use them to support your ideas of the attributes of His divine nature ... maybe we have a communication problem.

God subsists in Three Divine Persons, not three emotionless machines.

I didn't say God doesn't have emotions. I said God is not emotional. God does not change and therefore whatever His emotional state is, it does not change. EMOTIONAL implies a change in emotions and therefore I submit God is not EMOTIONAL.

Long Winded Thought on the Subject
The immutability of God implies the IMPASSIBILITY of God. This means that God is without "passions" – emotions or feelings. Less thoughtful believers protest against the doctrine, since they misapply biblical passages that seem to describe a God who experiences emotions such as grief, joy, and wrath (Psalm 78:40; Isaiah 62:5; Revelation 19:15). Passages that appear to ascribe emotions to God are anthropopathic.

The view that God experiences emotions like men appear to entail a number of contradictions: A man may become angry against his will in the sense that he does not choose to become angry, and he does not choose to experience whatever causes the anger, but that the "trigger" incites this emotion in him against his preference. This applies to human experiences of joy, fear, grief, and so on. However, this cannot be true with God even if he were to experience emotions, because such lack of self-control contradicts his omniscience, sovereignty (He controls all events), and immutability (He is not merry one moment and sad another for God is eternal; He has no succession of moments).

Since God is omniscient, he cannot be surprised, and this at least eliminates certain ways of experiencing emotions.

Perhaps the reply is that all facts are simultaneously present to God, so that the insult that angers him is always happening "now" [God has no succession of moments]. But this would imply that God must be angry about this one insult throughout eternity, and not just when it happens. If so, then God's emotions would not offer us the kind of interactivity that proponents of divine emotions are after. In any case, suppose something happens that alleviates this anger. Of course, the only way is forgiveness through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But since God knows Christ's sacrifice just as well as the man's insult, we are at a loss as to whether he is ever angry or not. The mental experiment results in absurdity, because the truth is that God is not like man. Isaiah 58:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.

Then, if an action of mine can cause anger in God in a similar way that I can cause anger in a man, then this means that I can cause anger in God by my power. To the degree that he lacks self-control, he is helpless against my efforts to cause anger in him. Likewise, if an action of mine can produce joy in God in a similar way that I can produce joy in a man, then this means that I have the ability to produce joy in God at will. In this manner, I would exercise a significant measure of control over God. But this contradicts his sovereignty [independence] and immutability. (Job 35:7-8a; Job 22:2-3; Romans 11:34-35; Isaiah 40:13; Acts 17:25, see Aseity (independence) of God)
The matter becomes much more complex when we take into account that he knows all the thoughts and actions of his creatures in all of history simultaneously. But it is enough to consider all the billions of people who anger him at any point in time, and the thousands or at least hundreds of people who please him at the same time. How is it possible for him to be angry with two billion people in a sense like man's anger and pleased with two hundred people, also in the human sense, at the same time? If the answer is that God's mind is immense, so that he is not subject to human limitations, then our point is also established.

Therefore, some form of divine impassibility is necessary. If God is angered by our sins, it is only because he wills to be angered by them, and not because his mental state is subject to our will or beyond his control. Even if God has emotions, they are under his control, and they will never compromise his divine attributes. And since they cannot compromise the divine attributes, this also means that even if he has emotions, he does not have them in a way that is similar to man. But then we wonder why we would still call them emotions. Thus at least in this sense and to this extent, we must affirm that God is without passions.

Love also is not an emotion in the Bible, but a volition. His love is uncaused (uninfluenced) as God is independent (Ephesians 1:4). Since God loves His people in Christ, it is not regulated by their fruitfulness, but is the same at all times. Because He loves them in Christ, the Father loves them as Christ. The time will come when His prayer will be answered, “that the world may know that thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved Me” (John 17:23).

Jesus experienced emotions, but what can we infer from this? He also experienced hunger and fatigue (Matthew 21:18; Luke 4:2; John 4:6), but this only proves that the Son of God took upon himself a human nature. Just as Jesus in his divine nature did not experience hunger or fatigue, he in his divine nature did not experience emotions. Only his human nature experienced hunger, fatigue, and emotions. Those instances when he experienced emotions were indeed disturbances of the mind (Mark 14:34), and since Hebrews 4:15 says that he never sinned, we conclude that not every disturbance of the mind is sinful. - Vincent Cheung

 

[Mr. G Lee]

You seem to be doing so IMO. You state attributes of Christ's human nature and use them to support your ideas of the attributes of His divine nature ... maybe we have a communication problem.


I didn't say God doesn't have emotions. I said God is not emotional. God does not change and therefore whatever His emotional state is, it does not change. EMOTIONAL implies a change in emotions and therefore I submit God is not EMOTIONAL.

Long Winded Thought on the Subject
The immutability of God implies the IMPASSIBILITY of God. This means that God is without "passions" – emotions or feelings. Less thoughtful believers protest against the doctrine, since they misapply biblical passages that seem to describe a God who experiences emotions such as grief, joy, and wrath (Psalm 78:40; Isaiah 62:5; Revelation 19:15). Passages that appear to ascribe emotions to God are anthropopathic.

The view that God experiences emotions like men appear to entail a number of contradictions: A man may become angry against his will in the sense that he does not choose to become angry, and he does not choose to experience whatever causes the anger, but that the "trigger" incites this emotion in him against his preference. This applies to human experiences of joy, fear, grief, and so on. However, this cannot be true with God even if he were to experience emotions, because such lack of self-control contradicts his omniscience, sovereignty (He controls all events), and immutability (He is not merry one moment and sad another for God is eternal; He has no succession of moments).

Since God is omniscient, he cannot be surprised, and this at least eliminates certain ways of experiencing emotions.

Perhaps the reply is that all facts are simultaneously present to God, so that the insult that angers him is always happening "now" [God has no succession of moments]. But this would imply that God must be angry about this one insult throughout eternity, and not just when it happens. If so, then God's emotions would not offer us the kind of interactivity that proponents of divine emotions are after. In any case, suppose something happens that alleviates this anger. Of course, the only way is forgiveness through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. But since God knows Christ's sacrifice just as well as the man's insult, we are at a loss as to whether he is ever angry or not. The mental experiment results in absurdity, because the truth is that God is not like man. Isaiah 58:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord.

Then, if an action of mine can cause anger in God in a similar way that I can cause anger in a man, then this means that I can cause anger in God by my power. To the degree that he lacks self-control, he is helpless against my efforts to cause anger in him. Likewise, if an action of mine can produce joy in God in a similar way that I can produce joy in a man, then this means that I have the ability to produce joy in God at will. In this manner, I would exercise a significant measure of control over God. But this contradicts his sovereignty [independence] and immutability. (Job 35:7-8a; Job 22:2-3; Romans 11:34-35; Isaiah 40:13; Acts 17:25, see Aseity (independence) of God)
The matter becomes much more complex when we take into account that he knows all the thoughts and actions of his creatures in all of history simultaneously. But it is enough to consider all the billions of people who anger him at any point in time, and the thousands or at least hundreds of people who please him at the same time. How is it possible for him to be angry with two billion people in a sense like man's anger and pleased with two hundred people, also in the human sense, at the same time? If the answer is that God's mind is immense, so that he is not subject to human limitations, then our point is also established.

Therefore, some form of divine impassibility is necessary. If God is angered by our sins, it is only because he wills to be angered by them, and not because his mental state is subject to our will or beyond his control. Even if God has emotions, they are under his control, and they will never compromise his divine attributes. And since they cannot compromise the divine attributes, this also means that even if he has emotions, he does not have them in a way that is similar to man. But then we wonder why we would still call them emotions. Thus at least in this sense and to this extent, we must affirm that God is without passions.

Love also is not an emotion in the Bible, but a volition. His love is uncaused (uninfluenced) as God is independent (Ephesians 1:4). Since God loves His people in Christ, it is not regulated by their fruitfulness, but is the same at all times. Because He loves them in Christ, the Father loves them as Christ. The time will come when His prayer will be answered, “that the world may know that thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved Me” (John 17:23).

Jesus experienced emotions, but what can we infer from this? He also experienced hunger and fatigue (Matthew 21:18; Luke 4:2; John 4:6), but this only proves that the Son of God took upon himself a human nature. Just as Jesus in his divine nature did not experience hunger or fatigue, he in his divine nature did not experience emotions. Only his human nature experienced hunger, fatigue, and emotions. Those instances when he experienced emotions were indeed disturbances of the mind (Mark 14:34), and since Hebrews 4:15 says that he never sinned, we conclude that not every disturbance of the mind is sinful. - Vincent Cheung

Thanks for that .I was reminded years ago. I did a search on the verse where in one translation it seems to be a commandment "be angry yet not sin" and another translation "in your anger do not sin" The second would seem to be the right choice . fallen mankind is angry. . God has set eternity in our hearts mankind can be angered not being what we were made to live forever .

Mankind's anger does not bring about the righteous life he desires of us

James 1:9 My dear brothers and sisters, always be more willing to listen than to speak. Keep control of your anger. Anger does not help you live the way God wants.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You seem to be doing so IMO. You state attributes of Christ's human nature and use them to support your ideas of the attributes of His divine nature ... maybe we have a communication problem.

Answer this first, then I can address the rest. Do your emotions spring from your flesh. For example, if you lose a leg and arm, is your love for others diminished?

Hitler had human nature. Why aren't we all Hitler? We have the same nature.

Or do your emotions spring from your Person? Do human beings with the same human nature have different emotions to the same things?

Can you concede there is a difference between "Nature" (the Machine) and "The Ghost or Spirit running the Machine", the Person?

 

[GodsGrace]

... but who caused Moses and Hezekiah to pray? Perhaps you're deist and propose that people and things operate on their own. Scripture (Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]) says our wicked and righteous acts do not affect God which leads one to conclude that God caused them to pray and then decided to react to what God had caused).
Job 23:13 But He is unchangeable, and who can turn Him? And what He wants to do, that He does. Your interpretation of Moses and Hezekiah's prayers causes God to react contradictd scripture.

The above is so confusing that I don't know how anyone that knows the bible as well as you do cannot see this....:
Moses and Hezekiah Pray.
You believe God CAUSED them to pray.
You state that perhaps the other member thinks people and things operate on their own.
You say that God cannot be affected by anything because He is sovereign.
So God CAUSED them to pray and then God reacted to what HE caused them to do.
Question:
Why do we pray at all then?
Jesus prayed all the time...He taught the Apostles how to pray when asked.
IF God predestines everything and decrees everything....
WHY would Jesus have taught the Apostles to pray?

What does the following mean:
James 5:16
13Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.
14Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
17Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.
18Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.

The reformed always make it sound like God is playing games with us.
According to you, God decrees that we pray...
so that He can then SEEM to accomplish much SINCE THE PRAYERS ARE EFFECTIVE.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

Answer this first, then I can address the rest. Do your emotions spring from your flesh. For example, if you lose a leg and arm, is your love for others diminished?

Hitler had human nature. Why aren't we all Hitler? We have the same nature.

Or do your emotions spring from your Person? Do human beings with the same human nature have different emotions to the same things?

Can you concede there is a difference between "Nature" (the Machine) and "The Ghost or Spirit running the Machine", the Person?

We are not talking about the nature of the dying flesh the temporal seen .We have a born again nature Paul as Saul before his conversion would of been right up there with Hitler under the authority of the father of lies.the author of the murdering spirit. . begins his serial killing with the murder Cain

 

[jasonc]

The above is so confusing that I don't know how anyone that knows the bible as well as you do cannot see this....:
Moses and Hezekiah Pray.
You believe God CAUSED them to pray.
You state that perhaps the other member thinks people and things operate on their own.
You say that God cannot be affected by anything because He is sovereign.
So God CAUSED them to pray and then God reacted to what HE caused them to do.
Question:
Why do we pray at all then?
Jesus prayed all the time...He taught the Apostles how to pray when asked.
IF God predestines everything and decrees everything....
WHY would Jesus have taught the Apostles to pray?

What does the following mean:
James 5:16
13Is anyone among you suffering? Then he must pray. Is anyone cheerful? He is to sing praises.
14Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord;
15and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
16Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.
17Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.
18Then he prayed again, and the sky poured rain and the earth produced its fruit.

The reformed always make it sound like God is playing games with us.
According to you, God decrees that we pray...
so that He can then SEEM to accomplish much SINCE THE PRAYERS ARE EFFECTIVE.

I wonder if you have God let you struggle and then answer and realize all the time he held you .answered a prayer after you realized only he could .

But God doesn't do that .
He can't know us and let us flounder ..nah he wouldn't do that .he has to wait for us to figure out to ask .

You get caught up into this hill .

 

[Mr. G Lee]

I wonder if you have God let you struggle and then answer and realize all the time he held you .answered a prayer after you realized only he could .

But God doesn't do that .
He can't know us and let us flounder ..nah he wouldn't do that .he has to wait for us to figure out to ask .

You get caught up into this hill .

If a person is Yoked with Christ the daily burdens are lighter.Christ having given us eternal life we now have a living hope beyond the grave. Many are slow learners as myself or what you called flounders but all have the same confidence till there last breath .

Philippians 1:5-6 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

In that way we would never outgrow the need for the milk of the word. . . it as it is written teaches us he is gracious and long sufferings.

Milk produces strong bones of faith that we might do the will the meat of the Father.(LOL)

We pray give us this day our daily bread that we might be empowered to do His will.

Have some milk with the bacon.. mix mercy with grace the breaking of the fast Like David in the Psalms. . . when I awake you are still there good morning wake up call the eye opener

1 Peter 2:1-3King James Version Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

 

[jasonc]

If a person is Yoked with Christ the daily burdens are lighter.Christ having given us eternal life we now have a living hope beyond the grave. Many are slow learners as myself or what you called flounders but all have the same confidence till there last breath .

Philippians 1:5-6 For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

In that way we would never outgrow the need for the milk of the word. . . it as it is written teaches us he is gracious and long sufferings.

Milk produces strong bones of faith that we might do the will the meat of the Father.(LOL)

We pray give us this day our daily bread that we might be empowered to do His will.

Have some milk with the bacon.. mix mercy with grace the breaking of the fast Like David in the Psalms. . . when I awake you are still there good morning wake up call the eye opener

1 Peter 2:1-3King James Version Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

I was addressing only her.

She gets so caught up in her view which is not far from mine .that she forgets at times that yes God allows ,he already knows .

It's possible that God being outside of time .

Imagine it's the year 1949.my mother isn't born yet .her mother and father are asking God for another child .

Said child is born .this child decided to pray for a son or daughter in 1972.i arrive in 1973 did God cease existing outside of time .we can ask something God doesnt already know and have an answer ?

God certainly can use mans will to get His plans to go forth .my dad died .my brother John, being way more freewil then probably most here ,said

God seemed to have ordained my dad being saved by his son in his timing and orchestrated it via me,his brother ,to lead John ,to Christ ,then dad via a friend

After which I later said why how reformed of you to say that John . My pastor a full five pointer preached that service .

God created men to reject him . He controlled that decision .He didn't have to .He didn't and doesn't need his creation to complete him .if God never created man .His existence wouldn't be less .

That said .wondering ignores the problem that God said how he will save . Any other way outside of that creates a problem .either a He wasn't interested in saving the nations outside of Israel then or b he foreknew that they wouldn't want him .since we have no record of any outside of the bible coming to Israel we can only speculate .she often mentions some idea of a great spirit .

No culture has any proper view of God unless it's grounded in his Word .

I don't agree with the reformed view of God not wanting to .but I understand it . He let them . But again,I also know that when He did decide to reveal himself few truly reject him .he broke my will to bend me to repent .

In no way would I believe what I do on the Trinity without divine revelation.

 

[jasonc]

I have come to believe all that befalls a believer Good or Bad isn't a coincidence .

God allows it .for a blessing and also to grow us.

PTSD has had me question my purpose .

Money or a good job can give meaning but it ultimately what I find to fill that hole with PTSD and find meaning won't be remembered when I am but some VA marked headstone . What I do for Jesus does. I can control little in that .

I can't plan tomorrow like God can

 

[Fastfredy0]

We have the same nature.

Or do your emotions spring from your Person? Do human beings with the same human nature have different emotions to the same things?

I don't understand the distinction you are making between human NATURE and being a PERSON. You have not defined the terms.

Can you concede there is a difference between "Nature" (the Machine) and "The Ghost or Spirit running the Machine", the Person?

I don't understand the terms in the question ... they're not familiar to me.

 

[Hopeful 2]

If God can change His mind then all His promises are suspect.
If God can change His mind then the following verse is a lie: 1 Samuel 15:29 Also the Splendor and Glory and Eminence of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”

Note: I cite verses, you do not.

Did not God change His mind when Moses pled for the Israelites in the dessert ?
Ex 32:9-10..."And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation."
Ex 32:14..."And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
The Lord also changed His mind about even creating man.
Gen 6:6..."And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart."
The Lord again changed His mind about making Saul king.
1 Sam 15:11..."It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the Lord all night."
1 Sam 15:35..."And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the Lord repented that he had made Saul king over Israel."

If God can't/won't ever change His mind, what is the point of asking for any change in our God given circumstances ?

BTW, the context of 1 Sam 15:29 was only the punishment Saul earned by rebelling from God.
It was that punishment that Samuel was talking about that God would not repent of.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So God CAUSED them to pray and then God reacted to what HE caused them to do.

Yes, that is my stance. God is the First Cause of all things. The proof is simple.
Premise 1: God knows everything (aside: Open Theists disagree) ... I can give proof verses if requested
Premise 2: God does not change ... I can give proof verses if requested
Premise 3: Even God cannot know what nothing will do. Nothing comes from nothing ( Greek: οὐδὲν ἐξ οὐδενός; Latin: ex nihilo nihil fit)
Conclusion: Since God has always known everything (otherwise He would not be immutable if His knowledge changed) and since God knew everything when we were nothing (before the foundation of the earth) then God's knowledge is dependent upon what He causes (we are His instruments; His secondary causes of whatever). So before God created time He knew He would cause Moses to pray and God knew how He would react. God does it for our benefit for it is better to give than receive and God is always better than us and thus we never give God anything; we can't give Him anything for then He would not be immutable, then we would be better in giving than God in receiving.

... we don't do anything independent of God .... Acts 17:28 in Him we live and breathe and have our being ... this also show in the verse that says all things would cease to exist if God were to stop causing them to exist (I'm to lazy to find the verse but could if needed). This also explains Job 35:7-8 which says God does not react to what we do because God reacts to what He causes us to do.
Sorry, this is deep in the weeds.

Question:
Why do we pray at all then?

... because God causes you to pray ... your sanctification is caused by God ... I can give plenty of verses to show this. Man is NEVER the cause of God doing anything. God controls you and not the other way around. God cannot have a perfect world if man is in anyway controlling things. Granted, man thinks he operates independently. (aside: usually this argument is countered with the problem of evil which both sides have issues with and I'm not going to go there.... this is deep enough into the woods)

IF God predestines everything and decrees everything....
WHY would Jesus have taught the Apostles to pray?

You're looking at things from man's point of view and that is the wrong vantage point. God is in charge and His point of view and His purpose is the only thing that matters. You need to ask "What is God's purpose" and then you will have your answer.

The reformed always make it sound like God is playing games with us.

*giggle* ... not sure what you mean. God has to simplify things so us "dummies" can have an infinitesimal knowledge of God

According to you, God decrees that we pray...
so that He can then SEEM to accomplish much SINCE THE PRAYERS ARE EFFECTIVE.

Yes .... and I've given proof above like Job 35:7-8. You probably can't explain away my proofs. You assume that we pray and thus control God at times.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Did not God change His mind when Moses pled for the Israelites in the dessert ?

I can give 20ish verses saying God does not change His mind.
You're right that there are verses that apparently show God changes His mind ... so we have a problem with scripture.
We assume/know God does not contradict Himself and He does not lie so the solution to the apparent contradictory verses is they are anthropomorphic. This is implied by the fact that the verses saying God does not change His mind (He's immutable) are didactic and verses that say God changes his mind are usually part of a narrative. That's my explanation and the explanation of many others. Now you give your explanation of the verses that contradict each other in regards to God changing His mind.

If God can't/won't ever change His mind,

If God changes His mind then He is not all knowing or He is dumb. If God changes His mind then He is not a perfect being for He has made a mistake. If God changes His mind then His promises are not trustworthy and we have reason to question His faithfulness. You say God can change His mind and if so you have created a lot of issues with our understanding of God's supposed perfect nature.

Long Winded Proof
Verses about God’s Immutability

1. Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that He should tell or act a lie, neither the son of man, that He should feel repentance or compunction [for what He has promised]. Has He said and shall He not do it? Or has He spoken and shall He not make it good?
2. 1 Samuel 15:29 Also the Splendor and Glory and Eminence of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”
3. Psalm 33:10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nought; He makes the thoughts and plans of the peoples of no effect. 11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the thoughts of His heart through all generations. [God’s purposes never change]
4. Job 23:13 But He is unchangeable, and who can turn Him? And what He wants to do, that He does.
5. Psalm 33:11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever, The thoughts and plans of His heart through all generations.
6. Psalm 89:33-37
7. Psalm 102:27 But you remain the same, and your years will never end
8. Proverbs 19:21 Many plans are in a man’s mind, But it is the Lord’s purpose for him that will stand (be carried out).
9. Malachi 3:6a For I the Lord do not change;
10. Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts has sworn [an oath], saying, “Just as I have intended, so it has certainly happened, and just as I have planned, so it will stand—
11. Isaiah 41:4b ‘I, the Lord—the first, and with the last [existing before history began, the ever-present, unchanging God]—I am He.’”
12. Isaiah 43:10; 44:6; 48:12 … He is the first and the last
13. Isaiah 46:10 ‘My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose’,
14. Ezekiel 24:14 I the Lord have spoken; it is coming and I will act. I will not relent, and I will not have compassion and I will not be sorry; in accordance with your ways and in accordance with your deeds I will judge and punish you,” says the Lord God.’”
15. Romans 1:23a and exchanged the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God
16. Romans 1:29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]
17. Romans 11:29 For God's gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]
18. Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
19. 1 Timothy 1:17 Now to the King of the ages [eternal], immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.
20. Hebrew 1:11 they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, 12 like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end.”
21. Hebrews 6:17 Accordingly God also, in His desire to show more convincingly and beyond doubt to those who were to inherit the promise the unchangeableness of His purpose and plan, intervened (mediated) with an oath.
22. Hebrews 7:16b who has become a priest, not on the basis of a physical and legal requirement in the Law [concerning his ancestry as a descendant of Levi], but on the basis of the power of an indestructible and endless life.
23. Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
24. James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.
25. God cannot be affected by, nor respond to, anything external to him. “God willeth not one thing now, and another later; but once, and at once, and always, he willeth all things that he willeth; not again and again, nor now this, now that; nor willeth afterwards, what before he willed not, nor willeth not, what before he willed; because such a will is mutable; and no mutable thing is eternal”
26. Ramifications in relation to God. If self-existence should change, it would become dependent existence; eternity would become time; perfection imperfection; and therefore God would become not-God. Immutability assures us that none of God’s perfection change.
27. Ramifications in relation to us. Immutability offers comfort and assurance that God’s promises will not fail (Malachi 3:6; 2 Timothy 2:13). Immutability reminds us that God’s attitudes toward sin, for example, do not change. Therefore, God can never be coaxed or compromised into changing.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't understand the distinction you are making between human NATURE and being a PERSON. You have not defined the terms.



I don't understand the terms in the question ... they're not familiar to me.

I apologize. Upon reviewing all the possible meanings of "nature" its clear I should have explained better. We are discussing God, and emotions; Where emotions are from:

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity (Latin: Trinitas, lit. 'triad', from Latin: trinus 'threefold') is the central doctrine concerning the nature of God in most Christian churches, which defines one God existing in three coequal, coeternal, consubstantial divine persons: God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit, three distinct persons (hypostases) sharing one essence/substance/nature (homoousion).-Wikipedia

In my argument, "Nature" is the "essence" or "substance" of God. Its not the source of His emotions. God's nature is not the Persons of the Trinity, all three of whom have emotions.

Our bodies are the "substance or essence" of our "human nature", but our emotions don't spring from it. Our emotions spring from our "Person", the "soul in the body" that is "us".

That is why we aren't all Hitler, even though we all have the same human bodies, our souls are different.

So, Christ in the flesh showing emotion, passion...is God the Person showing emotion, passion. His human body is irrelevant.

I can say this because of "hypostatic" union, there is only One Person who is Jesus, God the Son. But He subsists in two different natures, human and divine. But these are not the source of His emotions, of who He is.

Now that I have defined the terms, do you agree God the Person has shown emotions that have passion, even though God's substance is "immutable"?