journeyman
Member
I love you now Padre Pio, because my Lord and Savior and your Lord had something to say to me about how smart I thought I was. After he showed what he meant by Love I think you shoulld stay here to learn more about my God.
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Being serious is absolutely necessary in a serious discussion.Re: what/who is the ultimate revelation of God
Could I get serious? That's not a pleasant way to exchange ideas ...
Some that HAVE heard of Christ are dead.I grant Christ is the greatest revelation of God as He is God. But much of the population is dead and have never heard of Christ and for them I would say 'nature' is the ultimate revelation of God.
If you can't see the aspect of the discussion then I don't think you are being serious (giggle)
Well, we haven't defined revelation. I think you are confining it to scripture and if the is the agreed definition, then I agree revelation is complete. But there is personal revelation as scripture says Christ is in us and leads us, the degree of leading is debated. I believe when a Christian dies revelation will increase greatly: Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
Agreed ... My definition of love did not include these attributes.
We both agree to your statement though the underlying causes we would disagree... but that evades the point I made which is that it is obvious that God does not favor (love) people in hell.
Sorry. What point didn't I address?Aside: You have a habit of not addressing my points directly (if at all)
The context in which you use the term "image of God" indicated to me that you had a non-biblical understanding of the term ... but that is another tangent that is not applicable to this thread IMO.
Re: Give a biblical definition or use my definition.
Well, if you can't define the words that are the subject of the thread then we will just talk past each other.
Note: I defined the salient words in the question of the thread as I think it is essential to the understanding of one's answers, but that's just me. (giggle)
I've studied the subject. Christians are divided and there answers are obtuse. I grant that you think you know the answer.
Maybe. You would not define LOVE when I asked so it's hard to know. If you won't define what you mean then the discussion will inevitably "go off the rails".
The word ELECT appears in the bible.Well, one or both of us don't know accurately what the ELECT means. You saying you're right and I'm wrong is a statement without foundation.
I can give instruction as to how the trip is avoided but that once again is not relevant to the thread. The thread is to discuss whether or not GOD IS ALL LOVING ... not how to avoid hell.
Man's love for his fellow man is again not pertinent to the thread. You accuse me of derailing yet it is you that posts doctrinal statements that are either irrelevant or you fail to show the relevance.
OK Let's define God's Love....I thought we Christians all agree that God is Love.You won't even define GOD'S LOVE when asked even though that is the topic at hand. The foundation of arguments about a topic depend on an understanding of the topic which includes an understanding of the terms being discussed. You avoid that. I, on the other hand, define agape love and quote the bible to show aspects of God's love and then apply it to the question at hand. Try it .... you will save a lot of time being wasted on talking past each other because of a lack of common understanding of what is being discussed.
I agree wondering .The word ELECT appears in the bible.
We are God's elect.
God has elected us.
God has chosen us....that's all elect means.
The question is HOW does God choose/elect us?
We have to remember that God is not only LOVE, He is also Merciful and Just.
God is merciful so He gives to everyone the opportunity to become saved.
Call it prevenient grace - that certain amount of grace that is given to everyone so they might know that God exists.
(Romans 1:19..)
God is love so He planned for our salvation from before time began, knowing that Adam would fail.
He gave us a way of escape.
God is Just and being a just God, He give to each person what they deserve. In order to deserve being far from God, they must themselves choose this - it has to be what the person wants. Knowing what the consequences are - each person will have to willingly accept them.
So we are ELECT based on whether or not we choose to follow in God's way.
We choose to follow Jesus.
That doesn't mean we save ourselves....
It's silly to have to hear this from reformers all the time...
I think it's very well combined.
IF God is All Loving, then HE doesn't want to send anyone to hell...
Proving that it's the person that chooses to go there.
God could only pass over some if He were NOT loving.
But we know that God so loved the world....meaning His creation.
Enough so that He leaves it to us to want to be with Him.
My point is that we're made in the image of God.
God has love for us.
So we're to have love for others.
Jesus 2nd Great Command.
If we can love our neighbor (which is what Jesus commands)....
then it must surely mean that God loves us.
OK Let's define God's Love....I thought we Christians all agree that God is Love.
God love the entire world:
John 3:16
God love His creation is spite of sin:
Romans 5:8
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
1 John 4:9-10
9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Ephesians 1:4
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself,
I think you need to read the Bible and ask God to illuminate your mind, circumcise your heart and open your ears so you will know the meaning of love. This is what the Bible says, God demonstrated his love towards us that while we were sinners Christ Jesus died for our sins.( Romans 5:8). God sacrifice his Son Jesus to die on the Cross, he was buried and rose again after 3 days for the forgiveness of the sins of mankind. God wants to restore mankind to Him and because he loves us and did not want us to be separated from him, he made a way to do that thru the death and burial and resurrection of his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but by Him(John 14:6). God loves us that he willingly sacrificed His Son to die on the cross so that your sins and mine and the sins of mankind can be forgiven and be given Eternal Life. Now God doesn't want you to be separated from Him, he doesn't want you to go to hell. He was telling us that in order for our sins can be forgiven is to believe in His Son Jesus and accept him as our Savior and Lord. John 3:16 said, For God so loved the world that he gave his One and Only Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have Eternal Life. Don't lose heaven because of someone's idea or your wrong beliefs. God can not force you to love and worship him. God has given people so many times to repent and receive his offer of salvation thru His Son Jesus. Take that opportunity right now, his Son Jesus Christ is coming back again. When he comes back he will take with him all those people who repent of their sins, believe and accept Jesus as their Savior and Lord. The Tribulation is a terrible time a person can be in and that is coming very soon. If you read Matthew 24 everything that is happening now is written there even the coming of the Son of God, the Lord and Savior of all those who believe and accept him as their Savior and Lord of their life. Ephesians 2:4-5, 8-9, "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved... For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.. God loves you no matter what, he knows you are being carried away with your emotions. God is a God of many second chances. Just tell him, God, I am sorry and to help you understand. Jesus loves you. God loves you, he always has and he will always love you. Praying for you and family to know the Saving Knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. God bless you always.A God that will burn his own children in hell just because they do not worship him is not a loving God at all... In fact he is a narcissist.
Even my mom is much more loving than the God of the Bible in more ways than I can type here.
... because to say otherwise is to contradict the word of God. Consider:God's love is "passionless" = unemotional cold distant...How can you say that?
That cannot be true as your definition does not include what God has Chosen Us for.God has chosen us....that's all elect means.
You refuse to define LOVE so further discussion based on a lack of foundation is pointless.We have to remember that God is not only LOVE
He is merciful ... but not to everyone without exception. You premise does not prove this aspect of your definition of God's mercy. You are simple assuming without foundation.God is merciful so He gives to everyone the opportunity to become saved.
There term is not found in the Bible. It's used by Arminians to cover the massive whole in their theology.Call it prevenient grace
Again, you won't define love so your conclusion lacks foundation.God is love so He planned for our salvation
You think you deserve to be saved? You've earned it? Wow.God is Just and being a just God, He give to each person what they deserve.
This contradicts scripture. Job 41:11; 1 Corinthians 4:7; Ephesians 2:8-9. You may be embarrassed when you boast to God about your part in saving yourself.In order to deserve being far from God, they must themselves choose this
Circular logic. God chooses us because we chose him and we choose Him because He chose us ....So we are ELECT based on whether or not we choose to follow in God's way.
???? you're contradicting yourself. See previous quote. LOLThat doesn't mean we save ourselves....
It's silly to have to hear this from reformers all the time...
Again, you refused to define ALL LOVING. Your statement, if true, shows God does not get what He wants; that we control God when it comes to salvation. God is our puppet in the matter of salvation and we are God's as we soverneignly determine what God must do when it come to our salvation. Again, reason to boast. If God loved everyone and wants them to be in heaven He simply has those who will not believe die in child birth; so simple a solution that even I thought of it.IF God is All Loving, then HE doesn't want to send anyone to hell...
I doubt you know what "made in God's image" means. I abuse the term to fit your theology. There's only 2 of 3 verses defining Image of God in man and it does not apply.My point is that we're made in the image of God.
That's not a definition of LOVE. It sentences using the word love. Look up AGAPE to start. Then find verses that DIRECTLY offer what God's love is ... like "love is a bond of unity"OK Let's define God's Love....I thought we Christians all agree that God is Love.
God love the entire world:
John 3:16
God love His creation is spite of sin:
Romans 5:8
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Passion and love go together. If God's love is passionless, then humans have ability God does not have. God manifests Himself in the flesh, and eats, drinks....does everything a man might do. Some think this demeans the deity, I do not. It shows He can experience reality just as His creatures do, we cannot experience life in a manner that is impossible for God.... because to say otherwise is to contradict the word of God. Consider:
Premise 1: God does not change (immutable)
Premise 2: The dictionary defines "emotion" as "disturbance, excitement; the affective aspect of consciousness; a state of feeling; a psychic and physical reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling and physiologically involving changes that prepare the body for immediate vigorous action."
Conclusion: God cannot be emotional as by definition emotion is a change and that contradicts the immutability of God which is found in the Bible.
God is not affected by what men do: Job 35:7-8, Acts 17:25
The Divine nature cannot be increased; for whatsoever receives anything than what it had in itself before (i.e. love, worship), must necessarily receive it from another, because nothing can give to itself that which it hath not. But God cannot receive from another what he hath not already, because whatsoever other things possess is derived from him, and, therefore, contained in him, as the fountain contains the virtue in itself which it conveys to the streams; so that God cannot gain anything. Stephen Charnock The Existence and Attributes
Aside: Man tends to cast God in the Image of Man when it comes to describing God.
Moses' prayers deterred God from destroying the Israelis in the desert. (Num 21:7)... because to say otherwise is to contradict the word of God. Consider:
Premise 1: God does not change (immutable)
Premise 2: The dictionary defines "emotion" as "disturbance, excitement; the affective aspect of consciousness; a state of feeling; a psychic and physical reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling and physiologically involving changes that prepare the body for immediate vigorous action."
Conclusion: God cannot be emotional as by definition emotion is a change and that contradicts the immutability of God which is found in the Bible.
God is not affected by what men do: Job 35:7-8, Acts 17:25
The Divine nature cannot be increased; for whatsoever receives anything than what it had in itself before (i.e. love, worship), must necessarily receive it from another, because nothing can give to itself that which it hath not. But God cannot receive from another what he hath not already, because whatsoever other things possess is derived from him, and, therefore, contained in him, as the fountain contains the virtue in itself which it conveys to the streams; so that God cannot gain anything. Stephen Charnock The Existence and Attributes
Aside: Man tends to cast God in the Image of Man when it comes to describing God.
You got a verse for that? God is love, but not an emotional (changing love) as God does not change and therefore by definition God is not emotional. Now, He may have an unchanging emotion, but that is unlike us; we are emotional.Passion and love go together.
Humans can do many things God cannot do like lying or changing ... so what is your point?If God's love is passionless, then humans have ability God does not have.
I think you are conflating Christ human nature with His divine nature.Some think this demeans the deity, I do not. It shows He can experience reality just as His creatures do, we cannot experience life in a manner that is impossible for God.
I think you are conflating Christ human nature with His divine nature.How He compartmentalizes His omniscience etc., must be similar to how Christ (who knew all things) could honestly ask "how touched me."
A valid point. There are verses that seem to indicate God is emotional. My side would classify such verses as athropormorphic in order to explain other verses that would contradict such verses.A Passionless God contradicts every scripture where God professes His love, and His anger.
... because to say otherwise is to contradict the word of God. Consider:
Premise 1: God does not change (immutable)
Premise 2: The dictionary defines "emotion" as "disturbance, excitement; the affective aspect of consciousness; a state of feeling; a psychic and physical reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling and physiologically involving changes that prepare the body for immediate vigorous action."
Conclusion: God cannot be emotional as by definition emotion is a change and that contradicts the immutability of God which is found in the Bible.
How does Stephen Charnock prove what he states?God is not affected by what men do: Job 35:7-8, Acts 17:25
The Divine nature cannot be increased; for whatsoever receives anything than what it had in itself before (i.e. love, worship), must necessarily receive it from another, because nothing can give to itself that which it hath not. But God cannot receive from another what he hath not already, because whatsoever other things possess is derived from him, and, therefore, contained in him, as the fountain contains the virtue in itself which it conveys to the streams; so that God cannot gain anything. Stephen Charnock The Existence and Attributes
Aside: Man tends to cast God in the Image of Man when it comes to describing God.
... but who caused Moses and Hezekiah to pray? Perhaps you're deist and propose that people and things operate on their own. Scripture (Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]) says our wicked and righteous acts do not affect God which leads one to conclude that God caused them to pray and then decided to react to what God had caused).Moses' prayers deterred God from destroying the Israelis in the desert. (Num 21:7)
Hezekiah's prayers deterred God from allowing him to die. (2 Kings 20)
My definition is from the dictionary. You are welcome to give your definition of EMOTIONAL as long as you use a legitimate source and we can go with that.Your definition of "emotion" is not all inclusive.
God does and has done so many times.And who says God is "immutable" ?)
You have not defined EMOTIONAL. I did define it and using my definition from the dictionary I believed I proved God is NOT EMOTIONAL because God does not change and to be EMOTIONAL means to change one's feelings. Now, if you want to supply your definition of EMOTIONAL, then we could go with that. If your definition varies from mine then I might even agree with you.God so loved His Son that He announces it to many, aloud.
God's love for Jesus was emotional.
His love for the truly repentant is also emotional.
God may have emotions but whatever God's emotions are, they DO NOT CHANGE as God has told us He does not change. To be EMOTIONAL is to change one emotions and therefore God is not emotional.God does not change in attributes ...
not in what we would describe as emotions.
God shows emotion throughout the bible, as YOU say many times.
I did not give a definition of hate or anger. My definition l assume differs from yours. The only word I defined was God's Love on this thread.You state that God is angry with mankind and you state that God hates much of mankind.
I'd say that anger and hate fall under the category of emotions - using your own definition.
I agree ... God's emotions vary from ours. I don't know of any verse that directly says God's emotions are different or the same as ours.The bible teaches that God does have different emotions....
at least in the best way we can describe it as finite beings.
A conclusion for which you give not evidence.How does Stephen Charnock prove what he states?
The bible seems to disgree with his opinion.
Of course Infinite God is immutable. The evidence you ignore, is the incarnation of Christ:You got a verse for that? God is love, but not an emotional (changing love) as God does not change and therefore by definition God is not emotional. Now, He may have an unchanging emotion, but that is unlike us; we are emotional.
Humans can do many things God cannot do like lying or changing ... so what is your point?
God is a perfect being.... to the degree man can do something that God cannot do, that characteristic on man's part must be inferior by definition (or God is not a perfect Being which cannot be tolerated).
I think you are conflating Christ human nature with His divine nature.
I think you are conflating Christ human nature with His divine nature.
A valid point. There are verses that seem to indicate God is emotional. My side would classify such verses as athropormorphic in order to explain other verses that would contradict such verses.
I won't address the rest as you didn't directly address how a immutable God and have mutable emotions.
This is what I stated:That cannot be true as your definition does not include what God has Chosen Us for.
You refuse to define LOVE so further discussion based on a lack of foundation is pointless.
He is merciful ... but not to everyone without exception. You premise does not prove this aspect of your definition of God's mercy. You are simple assuming without foundation.
Faith cometh by hearing... billions are dead having never heard of Christ who is the focus of our faith and therefore God is not 'merciful' to everyone without exception per obvious empirical evidence. (I know, you've said people can be saved by works who had not heard of God. This contradicts scripture.
There term is not found in the Bible. It's used by Arminians to cover the massive whole in their theology.
My conclusion is quotingAgain, you won't define love so your conclusion lacks foundation.
You think you deserve to be saved? You've earned it? Wow.
This contradicts scripture. Job 41:11; 1 Corinthians 4:7; Ephesians 2:8-9. You may be embarrassed when you boast to God about your part in saving yourself.
Also, scripture says God is not influence by what you do ... Job 35:7-8 ... yet you propose that you can influence God. WOW!
Again, you refused to define ALL LOVING. Your statement, if true, shows God does not get what He wants; that we control God when it comes to salvation. God is our puppet in the matter of salvation and we are God's as we soverneignly determine what God must do when it come to our salvation. Again, reason to boast. If God loved everyone and wants them to be in heaven He simply has those who will not believe die in child birth; so simple a solution that even I thought of it.
I doubt you know what "made in God's image" means. I abuse the term to fit your theology. There's only 2 of 3 verses defining Image of God in man and it does not apply.
That's not a definition of LOVE. It sentences using the word love. Look up AGAPE to start. Then find verses that DIRECTLY offer what God's love is ... like "love is a bond of unity"
I apologize for not taking the time your post deserves. I was rushed. Disregard #135.You got a verse for that? God is love, but not an emotional (changing love) as God does not change and therefore by definition God is not emotional. Now, He may have an unchanging emotion, but that is unlike us; we are emotional.
Humans can do many things God cannot do like lying or changing ... so what is your point?
God is a perfect being.... to the degree man can do something that God cannot do, that characteristic on man's part must be inferior by definition (or God is not a perfect Being which cannot be tolerated).
I think you are conflating Christ human nature with His divine nature.
I think you are conflating Christ human nature with His divine nature.
A valid point. There are verses that seem to indicate God is emotional. My side would classify such verses as athropormorphic in order to explain other verses that would contradict such verses.
I won't address the rest as you didn't directly address how a immutable God and have mutable emotions.
Eternal sufferings beyond or last breath is needed to develop the oral traditions of angels, used the same a patron saints . . . gods without form coming down in the likeness of menThe traditional and annihilationist views about hell are expressions, respectively, of the sanctity-of-life and quality-of-life ethical standpoints. After all, the grounds that God would have for annihilating someone would be the low quality of life in hell. If a person will not receive salvation, and if God will not extinguish one made in His image because He values life, then God's alternative is quarantine, and hell is certainly that. Thus the traditional view, being a sanctity-of-life and not a quality-of-life position, is morally superior to annihilationism" (The Apologetics Study Bible, p. 1292).
I think that is a very strong argument against annihilationism.
You need to study the "hypostatic union". There are attributes of Christ that are not divine. For example, Christ is not bodily omnipresent. Christ's human nature is not all knowing (“But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the father” (Mark 13:32)).Of course Infinite God is immutable. The evidence you ignore, is the incarnation of Christ:
Jesus wept. (Jn. 11:35 NKJ)
We disagree. Not much sense continuing as we perceive God using different standards.This is not "conflating" divine and human nature because PASSION etc is not about "nature", its about the PERSON.
Not a problem.I apologize for not giving my full attention to your responses. I can make the time.