God of the Bible is not all loving.

[journeymanisnothing]

I love you now Padre Pio, because my Lord and Savior and your Lord had something to say to me about how smart I thought I was. After he showed what he meant by Love I think you shoulld stay here to learn more about my God.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 1Jn.4:8

 

[GodsGrace]

Re: what/who is the ultimate revelation of God

Could I get serious? That's not a pleasant way to exchange ideas ...

Being serious is absolutely necessary in a serious discussion.

I grant Christ is the greatest revelation of God as He is God. But much of the population is dead and have never heard of Christ and for them I would say 'nature' is the ultimate revelation of God.
If you can't see the aspect of the discussion then I don't think you are being serious (giggle)

Some that HAVE heard of Christ are dead.
But that's such a harsh way of saying it.
Not saved. Not born again. Not knowing God....much better.
For these persons I don't even think nature is a revelation of God or they'd believe. Maybe not.
The aspect is that I'm talking about those that believe in God. Jesus is the ultimate revelation.
To the others, it doesn't matter.

Well, we haven't defined revelation. I think you are confining it to scripture and if the is the agreed definition, then I agree revelation is complete. But there is personal revelation as scripture says Christ is in us and leads us, the degree of leading is debated. I believe when a Christian dies revelation will increase greatly: Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Yes. I'm limiting revelation to what is revealed in God's Word. I did mention Personal Revelation, maybe not to you.
But this continues and God can always reveal something new to us about Himself.
As to when we die...
I do think that revelation will be complete. As the scripture that you posted states:
Then we shall see face to face.
Then I shall know fully.
As even we shall be fully known.

Agreed ... My definition of love did not include these attributes.

I think the only definition of love is 1 John 4:8
God IS love.
Every other kind of love is disordered.
(due to the sin nature - it disorders everything).
For instance, you can honor someone you do not love.
(a Marine sergeant for instance).

We both agree to your statement though the underlying causes we would disagree... but that evades the point I made which is that it is obvious that God does not favor (love) people in hell.

I have to agree that God cannot love those that serve satan.
He loves ALL to the degree that He created all...
but at some point a person will become unloved.

Yes, the underlying cause of why they're in hell we WILL disagree on.
But I would like for you to define JUSTICE and then tell me how God could be just in your theology.

Aside: You have a habit of not addressing my points directly (if at all)

Sorry. What point didn't I address?

The context in which you use the term "image of God" indicated to me that you had a non-biblical understanding of the term ... but that is another tangent that is not applicable to this thread IMO.

Every aspect of the image of God that He gave to us can be shown to be biblical.
You should visit that thread of mine. I'm not sure anyone referred it to the bible understanding of God.
The Scripture, I mean. Maybe you could do that?

Re: Give a biblical definition or use my definition.

Well, if you can't define the words that are the subject of the thread then we will just talk past each other.
Note: I defined the salient words in the question of the thread as I think it is essential to the understanding of one's answers, but that's just me. (giggle)



I've studied the subject. Christians are divided and there answers are obtuse. I grant that you think you know the answer.



Maybe. You would not define LOVE when I asked so it's hard to know. If you won't define what you mean then the discussion will inevitably "go off the rails".

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, one or both of us don't know accurately what the ELECT means. You saying you're right and I'm wrong is a statement without foundation.

The word ELECT appears in the bible.
We are God's elect.
God has elected us.
God has chosen us....that's all elect means.

The question is HOW does God choose/elect us?

We have to remember that God is not only LOVE, He is also Merciful and Just.

God is merciful so He gives to everyone the opportunity to become saved.
Call it prevenient grace - that certain amount of grace that is given to everyone so they might know that God exists.
(Romans 1:19..)

God is love so He planned for our salvation from before time began, knowing that Adam would fail.
He gave us a way of escape.

God is Just and being a just God, He give to each person what they deserve. In order to deserve being far from God, they must themselves choose this - it has to be what the person wants. Knowing what the consequences are - each person will have to willingly accept them.

So we are ELECT based on whether or not we choose to follow in God's way.
We choose to follow Jesus.

That doesn't mean we save ourselves....
It's silly to have to hear this from reformers all the time...

I can give instruction as to how the trip is avoided but that once again is not relevant to the thread. The thread is to discuss whether or not GOD IS ALL LOVING ... not how to avoid hell.

I think it's very well combined.
IF God is All Loving, then HE doesn't want to send anyone to hell...
Proving that it's the person that chooses to go there.

God could only pass over some if He were NOT loving.
But we know that God so loved the world....meaning His creation.
Enough so that He leaves it to us to want to be with Him.

Man's love for his fellow man is again not pertinent to the thread. You accuse me of derailing yet it is you that posts doctrinal statements that are either irrelevant or you fail to show the relevance.

My point is that we're made in the image of God.
God has love for us.
So we're to have love for others.
Jesus 2nd Great Command.
If we can love our neighbor (which is what Jesus commands)....
then it must surely mean that God loves us.

You won't even define GOD'S LOVE when asked even though that is the topic at hand. The foundation of arguments about a topic depend on an understanding of the topic which includes an understanding of the terms being discussed. You avoid that. I, on the other hand, define agape love and quote the bible to show aspects of God's love and then apply it to the question at hand. Try it .... you will save a lot of time being wasted on talking past each other because of a lack of common understanding of what is being discussed.

OK Let's define God's Love....I thought we Christians all agree that God is Love.

God love the entire world:
John 3:16

God love His creation is spite of sin:
Romans 5:8
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 4:9-10
9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Ephesians 1:4
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself,

 

[journeymanisnothing]

The word ELECT appears in the bible.
We are God's elect.
God has elected us.
God has chosen us....that's all elect means.

The question is HOW does God choose/elect us?

We have to remember that God is not only LOVE, He is also Merciful and Just.

God is merciful so He gives to everyone the opportunity to become saved.
Call it prevenient grace - that certain amount of grace that is given to everyone so they might know that God exists.
(Romans 1:19..)

God is love so He planned for our salvation from before time began, knowing that Adam would fail.
He gave us a way of escape.

God is Just and being a just God, He give to each person what they deserve. In order to deserve being far from God, they must themselves choose this - it has to be what the person wants. Knowing what the consequences are - each person will have to willingly accept them.

So we are ELECT based on whether or not we choose to follow in God's way.
We choose to follow Jesus.

That doesn't mean we save ourselves....
It's silly to have to hear this from reformers all the time...



I think it's very well combined.
IF God is All Loving, then HE doesn't want to send anyone to hell...
Proving that it's the person that chooses to go there.

God could only pass over some if He were NOT loving.
But we know that God so loved the world....meaning His creation.
Enough so that He leaves it to us to want to be with Him.



My point is that we're made in the image of God.
God has love for us.
So we're to have love for others.
Jesus 2nd Great Command.
If we can love our neighbor (which is what Jesus commands)....
then it must surely mean that God loves us.


OK Let's define God's Love....I thought we Christians all agree that God is Love.

God love the entire world:
John 3:16

God love His creation is spite of sin:
Romans 5:8
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

1 John 4:9-10
9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Ephesians 1:4
4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself,

I agree wondering .
We ask for Gods' forgiveness and then live in the Vine because we know there's nothing we can do without him.

Adam and Eve walked around naked. That's with toddlers do because they're not ashamed. A deceiver lied to Eve. That's all. It's like a father telling his small child don't do this, then sometime later a deceiver comes along and says, you won't die, your dad just doesn't want your teeth to fall out because it's candy.

 

[gsarwjc]

A God that will burn his own children in hell just because they do not worship him is not a loving God at all... In fact he is a narcissist.

Even my mom is much more loving than the God of the Bible in more ways than I can type here.

I think you need to read the Bible and ask God to illuminate your mind, circumcise your heart and open your ears so you will know the meaning of love. This is what the Bible says, God demonstrated his love towards us that while we were sinners Christ Jesus died for our sins.( Romans 5:8). God sacrifice his Son Jesus to die on the Cross, he was buried and rose again after 3 days for the forgiveness of the sins of mankind. God wants to restore mankind to Him and because he loves us and did not want us to be separated from him, he made a way to do that thru the death and burial and resurrection of his Son Jesus Christ. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but by Him(John 14:6). God loves us that he willingly sacrificed His Son to die on the cross so that your sins and mine and the sins of mankind can be forgiven and be given Eternal Life. Now God doesn't want you to be separated from Him, he doesn't want you to go to hell. He was telling us that in order for our sins can be forgiven is to believe in His Son Jesus and accept him as our Savior and Lord. John 3:16 said, For God so loved the world that he gave his One and Only Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have Eternal Life. Don't lose heaven because of someone's idea or your wrong beliefs. God can not force you to love and worship him. God has given people so many times to repent and receive his offer of salvation thru His Son Jesus. Take that opportunity right now, his Son Jesus Christ is coming back again. When he comes back he will take with him all those people who repent of their sins, believe and accept Jesus as their Savior and Lord. The Tribulation is a terrible time a person can be in and that is coming very soon. If you read Matthew 24 everything that is happening now is written there even the coming of the Son of God, the Lord and Savior of all those who believe and accept him as their Savior and Lord of their life. Ephesians 2:4-5, 8-9, "But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved... For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.. God loves you no matter what, he knows you are being carried away with your emotions. God is a God of many second chances. Just tell him, God, I am sorry and to help you understand. Jesus loves you. God loves you, he always has and he will always love you. Praying for you and family to know the Saving Knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. God bless you always.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God's love is "passionless" = unemotional cold distant...How can you say that?

... because to say otherwise is to contradict the word of God. Consider:

Premise 1: God does not change (immutable)
Premise 2: The dictionary defines "emotion" as "disturbance, excitement; the affective aspect of consciousness; a state of feeling; a psychic and physical reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling and physiologically involving changes that prepare the body for immediate vigorous action."
Conclusion: God cannot be emotional as by definition emotion is a change and that contradicts the immutability of God which is found in the Bible.

God is not affected by what men do: Job 35:7-8, Acts 17:25

The Divine nature cannot be increased; for whatsoever receives anything than what it had in itself before (i.e. love, worship), must necessarily receive it from another, because nothing can give to itself that which it hath not. But God cannot receive from another what he hath not already, because whatsoever other things possess is derived from him, and, therefore, contained in him, as the fountain contains the virtue in itself which it conveys to the streams; so that God cannot gain anything. Stephen Charnock The Existence and Attributes

Aside: Man tends to cast God in the Image of Man when it comes to describing God.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God has chosen us....that's all elect means.

That cannot be true as your definition does not include what God has Chosen Us for.

We have to remember that God is not only LOVE

You refuse to define LOVE so further discussion based on a lack of foundation is pointless.

God is merciful so He gives to everyone the opportunity to become saved.

He is merciful ... but not to everyone without exception. You premise does not prove this aspect of your definition of God's mercy. You are simple assuming without foundation.
Faith cometh by hearing... billions are dead having never heard of Christ who is the focus of our faith and therefore God is not 'merciful' to everyone without exception per obvious empirical evidence. (I know, you've said people can be saved by works who had not heard of God. This contradicts scripture.

Call it prevenient grace

There term is not found in the Bible. It's used by Arminians to cover the massive whole in their theology.

God is love so He planned for our salvation

Again, you won't define love so your conclusion lacks foundation.

God is Just and being a just God, He give to each person what they deserve.

You think you deserve to be saved? You've earned it? Wow.

In order to deserve being far from God, they must themselves choose this

This contradicts scripture. Job 41:11; 1 Corinthians 4:7; Ephesians 2:8-9. You may be embarrassed when you boast to God about your part in saving yourself.
Also, scripture says God is not influence by what you do ... Job 35:7-8 ... yet you propose that you can influence God. WOW!

So we are ELECT based on whether or not we choose to follow in God's way.

Circular logic. God chooses us because we chose him and we choose Him because He chose us ....

That doesn't mean we save ourselves....
It's silly to have to hear this from reformers all the time...

???? you're contradicting yourself. See previous quote. LOL

IF God is All Loving, then HE doesn't want to send anyone to hell...

Again, you refused to define ALL LOVING. Your statement, if true, shows God does not get what He wants; that we control God when it comes to salvation. God is our puppet in the matter of salvation and we are God's as we soverneignly determine what God must do when it come to our salvation. Again, reason to boast. If God loved everyone and wants them to be in heaven He simply has those who will not believe die in child birth; so simple a solution that even I thought of it.

My point is that we're made in the image of God.

I doubt you know what "made in God's image" means. I abuse the term to fit your theology. There's only 2 of 3 verses defining Image of God in man and it does not apply.

OK Let's define God's Love....I thought we Christians all agree that God is Love.

God love the entire world:
John 3:16

God love His creation is spite of sin:
Romans 5:8
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

That's not a definition of LOVE. It sentences using the word love. Look up AGAPE to start. Then find verses that DIRECTLY offer what God's love is ... like "love is a bond of unity"

 

[Alfred Persson]

... because to say otherwise is to contradict the word of God. Consider:

Premise 1: God does not change (immutable)
Premise 2: The dictionary defines "emotion" as "disturbance, excitement; the affective aspect of consciousness; a state of feeling; a psychic and physical reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling and physiologically involving changes that prepare the body for immediate vigorous action."
Conclusion: God cannot be emotional as by definition emotion is a change and that contradicts the immutability of God which is found in the Bible.

God is not affected by what men do: Job 35:7-8, Acts 17:25

The Divine nature cannot be increased; for whatsoever receives anything than what it had in itself before (i.e. love, worship), must necessarily receive it from another, because nothing can give to itself that which it hath not. But God cannot receive from another what he hath not already, because whatsoever other things possess is derived from him, and, therefore, contained in him, as the fountain contains the virtue in itself which it conveys to the streams; so that God cannot gain anything. Stephen Charnock The Existence and Attributes

Aside: Man tends to cast God in the Image of Man when it comes to describing God.

Passion and love go together. If God's love is passionless, then humans have ability God does not have. God manifests Himself in the flesh, and eats, drinks....does everything a man might do. Some think this demeans the deity, I do not. It shows He can experience reality just as His creatures do, we cannot experience life in a manner that is impossible for God.

How He compartmentalizes His omniscience etc., must be similar to how Christ (who knew all things) could honestly ask "how touched me."

The Proof-texting model is prone to error, entering the Bible with a preconceived idea and then marshaling "proofs" for the idea, is the opposite of exegesis:

Its obvious YHWH wants to experience life as His creatures do, in verse 8 God manifest as a man eats food Abraham cooked for Him:

1 Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.
4 "Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree.
5 "And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant." They said, "Do as you have said."
6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, "Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes."
7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it.
8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate.
(Gen. 18:1-8 NKJ)


A Passionless God contradicts every scripture where God professes His love, and His anger.


God is infinite. It is written we will be in Him and He in us, one.

20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
(Jn. 17:20-21 NKJ)

God will live in us, and we in Him. Perfect fellowship, communion. Loneliness impossible.

I believe God will share life with every one of us, as a friend companion. We will enjoy serving Him, but it will be because it brings us joy to do so. AND God will be our friend, our Father, showing us things that amaze and entertain, and enjoying our reactions to things He shows us as a Father does his child.

Why else would a creator of infinite intelligence create such a vast universe that will be populated by billions? God wants to share life with us, enjoy it with us:

But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." (1 Cor. 2:9 NKJ)

For this reason we must be holy, perfect in holiness as He is. He cannot abide with sin. Therefore, He gives us a new heart and spirit that rejoices in the light of God, in holiness truth and righteousness, and the former delusions and perversions will not come to mind, nor appear in the heart. God makes all things new:

17 "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. (Isa. 65:17 NKJ)

God will do this, because He wants to experience passion as fully as His creatures do.

 

[Hopeful 2]

... because to say otherwise is to contradict the word of God. Consider:

Premise 1: God does not change (immutable)
Premise 2: The dictionary defines "emotion" as "disturbance, excitement; the affective aspect of consciousness; a state of feeling; a psychic and physical reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling and physiologically involving changes that prepare the body for immediate vigorous action."
Conclusion: God cannot be emotional as by definition emotion is a change and that contradicts the immutability of God which is found in the Bible.

God is not affected by what men do: Job 35:7-8, Acts 17:25

The Divine nature cannot be increased; for whatsoever receives anything than what it had in itself before (i.e. love, worship), must necessarily receive it from another, because nothing can give to itself that which it hath not. But God cannot receive from another what he hath not already, because whatsoever other things possess is derived from him, and, therefore, contained in him, as the fountain contains the virtue in itself which it conveys to the streams; so that God cannot gain anything. Stephen Charnock The Existence and Attributes

Aside: Man tends to cast God in the Image of Man when it comes to describing God.

Moses' prayers deterred God from destroying the Israelis in the desert. (Num 21:7)
Hezekiah's prayers deterred God from allowing him to die. (2 Kings 20)
Your definition of "emotion" is not all inclusive.
(And who says God is "immutable" ?)
God so loved His Son that He announces it to many, aloud.
God's love for Jesus was emotional.
His love for the truly repentant is also emotional.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Passion and love go together.

You got a verse for that? God is love, but not an emotional (changing love) as God does not change and therefore by definition God is not emotional. Now, He may have an unchanging emotion, but that is unlike us; we are emotional.

If God's love is passionless, then humans have ability God does not have.

Humans can do many things God cannot do like lying or changing ... so what is your point?
God is a perfect being.... to the degree man can do something that God cannot do, that characteristic on man's part must be inferior by definition (or God is not a perfect Being which cannot be tolerated).

Some think this demeans the deity, I do not. It shows He can experience reality just as His creatures do, we cannot experience life in a manner that is impossible for God.

I think you are conflating Christ human nature with His divine nature.

How He compartmentalizes His omniscience etc., must be similar to how Christ (who knew all things) could honestly ask "how touched me."

I think you are conflating Christ human nature with His divine nature.

A Passionless God contradicts every scripture where God professes His love, and His anger.

A valid point. There are verses that seem to indicate God is emotional. My side would classify such verses as athropormorphic in order to explain other verses that would contradict such verses.

I won't address the rest as you didn't directly address how a immutable God and have mutable emotions.

 

[GodsGrace]

... because to say otherwise is to contradict the word of God. Consider:

Premise 1: God does not change (immutable)
Premise 2: The dictionary defines "emotion" as "disturbance, excitement; the affective aspect of consciousness; a state of feeling; a psychic and physical reaction (as anger or fear) subjectively experienced as strong feeling and physiologically involving changes that prepare the body for immediate vigorous action."
Conclusion: God cannot be emotional as by definition emotion is a change and that contradicts the immutability of God which is found in the Bible.

God does not change in attributes ...
not in what we would describe as emotions.
God shows emotion throughout the bible, as YOU say many times.
You state that God is angry with mankind and you state that God hates much of mankind.
I'd say that anger and hate fall under the category of emotions - using your own definition.

The bible teaches that God does have different emotions....
at least in the best way we can describe it as finite beings.

Psalm 7:11
11God is a righteous judge,
And a God who has indignation every day.

God has RIGHTEOUS indignation.

1 Kings 11:9
9Now the LORD was angry with Solomon because his heart was turned away from the LORD, the God of Israel, who had appeared to him twice,


This is from Desiring God by John Piper:

So often we think of God as non-enthusiastic or even gloomy. The exact opposite is true: He loves to be God, He takes great pleasure in all that He does, and He is enthusiastic about serving His people and working for their welfare. For example, God says in Jeremiah 32:41: "I will rejoice in doing them good." Jesus said in John 15:11, "These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you." And Paul writes in 1 Timothy 1:11 of "the glorious gospel of the blessed God." Blessed means happy. So Paul is saying: "the glorious gospel of the happy God."

God is infinitely happy because he is infinitely glorious. And, the good news is that he invites us to enter into his happiness. Here is what Piper writes in The Pleasures of God (p. 26): "It is good news that God is gloriously happy. No one would want to spend eternity with an unhappy God. If God is unhappy then the goal of the gospel is not a happy goal, and that means it would be no gospel at all. But, in fact, Jesus invites us to spend eternity with a happy God when he says, ‘Enter into the joy of your master' (Matthew 25:23). Jesus lived and died that his joy-God's joy-might be in us and our joy might be full (John 15:11; 17:13). Therefore the gospel is ‘the gospel of the glory of the happy God.'"

source: https://www.desiringgod.org/article...xample, God says in,God." Blessed means happy.

God is not affected by what men do: Job 35:7-8, Acts 17:25

The Divine nature cannot be increased; for whatsoever receives anything than what it had in itself before (i.e. love, worship), must necessarily receive it from another, because nothing can give to itself that which it hath not. But God cannot receive from another what he hath not already, because whatsoever other things possess is derived from him, and, therefore, contained in him, as the fountain contains the virtue in itself which it conveys to the streams; so that God cannot gain anything. Stephen Charnock The Existence and Attributes

Aside: Man tends to cast God in the Image of Man when it comes to describing God.

How does Stephen Charnock prove what he states?
The bible seems to disgree with his opinion.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Moses' prayers deterred God from destroying the Israelis in the desert. (Num 21:7)
Hezekiah's prayers deterred God from allowing him to die. (2 Kings 20)

... but who caused Moses and Hezekiah to pray? Perhaps you're deist and propose that people and things operate on their own. Scripture (Job 35:7 “If you are righteous, what do you give God, Or what does He receive from your hand? 8 “Your wickedness affects only a man such as you, And your righteousness affects only a son of man [but it cannot affect God, who is sovereign]) says our wicked and righteous acts do not affect God which leads one to conclude that God caused them to pray and then decided to react to what God had caused).
Job 23:13 But He is unchangeable, and who can turn Him? And what He wants to do, that He does. Your interpretation of Moses and Hezekiah's prayers causes God to react contradictd scripture.

Your definition of "emotion" is not all inclusive.

My definition is from the dictionary. You are welcome to give your definition of EMOTIONAL as long as you use a legitimate source and we can go with that.

And who says God is "immutable" ?)

God does and has done so many times.
1 Samuel 15:29 Also the Splendor and Glory and Eminence of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind.”
Job 23:13 But He is unchangeable, and who can turn Him? And what He wants to do, that He does.
Malachi 3:6a For I the Lord do not change;
... I could list a many more verses. To know God better one must study God's attributes.

God so loved His Son that He announces it to many, aloud.
God's love for Jesus was emotional.
His love for the truly repentant is also emotional.

You have not defined EMOTIONAL. I did define it and using my definition from the dictionary I believed I proved God is NOT EMOTIONAL because God does not change and to be EMOTIONAL means to change one's feelings. Now, if you want to supply your definition of EMOTIONAL, then we could go with that. If your definition varies from mine then I might even agree with you.

 

[Fastfredy0]

God does not change in attributes ...
not in what we would describe as emotions.
God shows emotion throughout the bible, as YOU say many times.

God may have emotions but whatever God's emotions are, they DO NOT CHANGE as God has told us He does not change. To be EMOTIONAL is to change one emotions and therefore God is not emotional.

You state that God is angry with mankind and you state that God hates much of mankind.
I'd say that anger and hate fall under the category of emotions - using your own definition.

I did not give a definition of hate or anger. My definition l assume differs from yours. The only word I defined was God's Love on this thread.

The bible teaches that God does have different emotions....
at least in the best way we can describe it as finite beings.

I agree ... God's emotions vary from ours. I don't know of any verse that directly says God's emotions are different or the same as ours.

How does Stephen Charnock prove what he states?
The bible seems to disgree with his opinion.

A conclusion for which you give not evidence.
In a similar way I can say the Bible agree with Charnock. Like you, I would be offering a conclusion without evidence.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You got a verse for that? God is love, but not an emotional (changing love) as God does not change and therefore by definition God is not emotional. Now, He may have an unchanging emotion, but that is unlike us; we are emotional.


Humans can do many things God cannot do like lying or changing ... so what is your point?
God is a perfect being.... to the degree man can do something that God cannot do, that characteristic on man's part must be inferior by definition (or God is not a perfect Being which cannot be tolerated).





I think you are conflating Christ human nature with His divine nature.



I think you are conflating Christ human nature with His divine nature.



A valid point. There are verses that seem to indicate God is emotional. My side would classify such verses as athropormorphic in order to explain other verses that would contradict such verses.

I won't address the rest as you didn't directly address how a immutable God and have mutable emotions.

Of course Infinite God is immutable. The evidence you ignore, is the incarnation of Christ:

Jesus wept. (Jn. 11:35 NKJ)

The Garden of Eden which shows God likes experiencing life compartmentalizing His Omniscience:

8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the LORD God called to Adam and said to him, "Where are you?" (Gen. 3:8-9 NKJ)

God ate and drank human food:

8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate. (Gen. 18:8 NKJ)

15 So when they had eaten breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me more than these?" He said to Him, "Yes, Lord; You know that I love You." He said to him, "Feed My lambs." (Jn. 21:15 NKJ)

This is not "conflating" divine and human nature because PASSION etc is not about "nature", its about the PERSON.

As Jesus is God, the fact He showed emotions disproves your passionless God theory.

Back to the Scripture, God appeared to Abraham and ATE the food he cooked. He certainly tasted it, knew if it was good or not.

He must have enjoyed it. Abraham survived the experience!! (ha ha).

While it is correct God immutable does not change, God is LIMITLESS, THAT you forget when you limit what God can experience.

By limiting God's the ability to experience life as if He were one of His creatures, you deny God is limitless.

God clearly likes living among His creatures, among humans and talking with them. He even wrestled Jacob:

24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.
25 Now when He saw that He did not prevail against him, He touched the socket of his hip; and the socket of Jacob's hip was out of joint as He wrestled with him.
26 And He said, "Let Me go, for the day breaks." But he said, "I will not let You go unless You bless me!"
27 So He said to him, "What is your name?" He said, "Jacob."
28 And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."
29 Then Jacob asked, saying, "Tell me Your name, I pray." And He said, "Why is it that you ask about My name?" And He blessed him there.
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
(Gen. 32:24-30 NKJ)

This is important. God's Kingdom will be us IN God, and He IN us, but not as a "tyrant", but as our loving Father He will always be with us, enjoying life WITH us.

From Genesis we conclude God knows how to make life perfect for us. His is always present, yet we can still have private moments just as Adam and Eve did. It will be perfect.

God wants BILLIONS of humans in His Kingdom, that is why the Millennial Kingdom exists, to repopulate the earth so it reaches numbers God intended.

He will never leave us or forsake us, it will be wonderful. We have a semblance of that now with the dwelling of the Holy Spirit, but then it will be as though we see God "face to face" and commune with Him, in perfect light and love.

 

[GodsGrace]

That cannot be true as your definition does not include what God has Chosen Us for.

This is what I stated:
God has chosen us....that's all elect means.
Because I didn't state WHAT God has chosen us FOR,
does not change the fact that election means TO CHOOSE.
A President is elected....
He is chosen.

If you want to discuss the REASON for God choosing persons, I'd be happy to get into that too.
But I think you know the answer...

You refuse to define LOVE so further discussion based on a lack of foundation is pointless.

So, we're back to that.
We couldn't discuss FREE WILL because you didn't like my definition of it.
Now we can't discuss LOVE because, somehow, I didn't explain it to your liking.

He is merciful ... but not to everyone without exception. You premise does not prove this aspect of your definition of God's mercy. You are simple assuming without foundation.

I am ASSUMING God is merciful?
How many verses to you want?

“The Lord, the Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abounding in goodness and truth, keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin …” Exodus 34:6-7.

“Therefore know that the Lord your God, He is God, the faithful God who keeps covenant and mercy for a thousand generations with those who love Him and keep His commandments …” Deuteronomy 7:9.

“With the merciful You will show Yourself merciful …” 2 Samuel 22:26.

“All the paths of the Lord are mercy and truth, to such as keep His covenant and His testimonies.” Psalm 25:10.

“But You, O Lord, are a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering and abundant in mercy and truth.” Psalm 86:15.

“Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; mercy and truth go before Your
face.” Psalm 89:14.

“The Lord is gracious and full of compassion, slow to anger and great in mercy. The Lord is good to all, and His tender mercies are over all His works.” Psalm 145:8-9.

“Through the Lord’s mercies we are not consumed, because His compassions fail not. They are new every morning; great is Your faithfulness.” Lamentations 3:22-23.

“Who is a God like You, pardoning iniquity and passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.” Micah 7:18-19.

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” John 3:16.

“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved) …” Ephesians 2:4-5.

“And Jesus, when He came out, saw a great multitude and was moved with compassion for them, because they were like sheep not having a shepherd. So He began to teach them many things.” Mark 6:34.

“Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.” Hebrews 2:17-18.

“Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.” Hebrews 4:14-16.


There's a lot more...

Faith cometh by hearing... billions are dead having never heard of Christ who is the focus of our faith and therefore God is not 'merciful' to everyone without exception per obvious empirical evidence. (I know, you've said people can be saved by works who had not heard of God. This contradicts scripture.

I NEVER said anyone could be saved by works.
I NEVER said someone could be saved without God.
Try reading Romans 1 and 2 and then come here and tell us all what is spoke about...
Without bringing any presupposed ideas to it.
Very bad exegesis BTW...

Sincerely FF, you need to stop reading all those scholarly books and get back to reading the Word of God...the bible.

There term is not found in the Bible. It's used by Arminians to cover the massive whole in their theology.

Many of your terms are not found in the bible.
TOTAL DEPRAVITY
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION
LIMITED ATONEMENT
IRRESISTIBLE GRACE
PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS

You may say the above describe concepts...
fine, that's what prevenient grace describes,
the concept that God's grace if for everyone.

Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The difference is that THIS is true...
whereas T.U.L.I.P. is not found anywhere in scripture.
Grace runs throughout scripture.
It is a free gift from God.
A gift is offered but is not forced upon anyone, as the reformed believe as in Irresistible Grace.
A gift must be accepted, freely.

Again, you won't define love so your conclusion lacks foundation.

My conclusion is quoting
1 John 4:8 stating that GOD IS LOVE.

This lacks foundation?

You think you deserve to be saved? You've earned it? Wow.

This contradicts scripture. Job 41:11; 1 Corinthians 4:7; Ephesians 2:8-9. You may be embarrassed when you boast to God about your part in saving yourself.
Also, scripture says God is not influence by what you do ... Job 35:7-8 ... yet you propose that you can influence God. WOW!

The above does not even deserve a response.
You're totally unaccepting of what a person states.

I don't know ANYONE on this forum, or any other forum, that believes he has saved himself.
This is preposterous and I will no longer reply to it.

You spit in the face of Our Lord which such comments.
As if His sacrifice was useless, of no worth.
Unbelievable.

Again, you refused to define ALL LOVING. Your statement, if true, shows God does not get what He wants; that we control God when it comes to salvation. God is our puppet in the matter of salvation and we are God's as we soverneignly determine what God must do when it come to our salvation. Again, reason to boast. If God loved everyone and wants them to be in heaven He simply has those who will not believe die in child birth; so simple a solution that even I thought of it.

Again, you must not read what members state.
Who said we control God?
Why make such outlandish comments?

I doubt you know what "made in God's image" means. I abuse the term to fit your theology. There's only 2 of 3 verses defining Image of God in man and it does not apply.




That's not a definition of LOVE. It sentences using the word love. Look up AGAPE to start. Then find verses that DIRECTLY offer what God's love is ... like "love is a bond of unity"

Thanks for the advice...
But I'll stick to what I know that scripture states.

 

[Alfred Persson]

You got a verse for that? God is love, but not an emotional (changing love) as God does not change and therefore by definition God is not emotional. Now, He may have an unchanging emotion, but that is unlike us; we are emotional.


Humans can do many things God cannot do like lying or changing ... so what is your point?
God is a perfect being.... to the degree man can do something that God cannot do, that characteristic on man's part must be inferior by definition (or God is not a perfect Being which cannot be tolerated).





I think you are conflating Christ human nature with His divine nature.



I think you are conflating Christ human nature with His divine nature.



A valid point. There are verses that seem to indicate God is emotional. My side would classify such verses as athropormorphic in order to explain other verses that would contradict such verses.

I won't address the rest as you didn't directly address how a immutable God and have mutable emotions.

I apologize for not taking the time your post deserves. I was rushed. Disregard #135.

God has emotions, all Persons do. Only Machines do not have emotions. God's use of Anthropomorphism does not require the "simile" has no root in reality..

4 "You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth;
5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. (Exod. 20:4-6 NKJ)

"I (am) a Jealous God" is translated in the TEV version "I tolerate no rivals". God demands "exclusive devotion." Just as a man would demand exclusive devotion from his wife. There is emotion involved.

His "jealousy" is perfect, without imperfection that would make it wrong. Compare David's "perfect hatred" for those that hate God:

21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You? And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
22 I hate them with perfect hatred; I count them my enemies. (Ps. 139:21-22 NKJ)

Although "perfect", its still emotion. How can you have "unemotional" hate or jealousy?


Your "analogy of lying" is different than claiming God does not have passion.
God cannot lie because of His impeccable character, He will never choose to . Hypothetically nothing is impossible for God.

If we were discussing nature, then I'd be "conflating". However, we are discussing what PERSONS do apart from their nature. There, as the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, the passion and love He shows others, proves the point.


I apologize for not giving my full attention to your responses. I can make the time.

 

[Mr. G Lee]

The traditional and annihilationist views about hell are expressions, respectively, of the sanctity-of-life and quality-of-life ethical standpoints. After all, the grounds that God would have for annihilating someone would be the low quality of life in hell. If a person will not receive salvation, and if God will not extinguish one made in His image because He values life, then God's alternative is quarantine, and hell is certainly that. Thus the traditional view, being a sanctity-of-life and not a quality-of-life position, is morally superior to annihilationism" (The Apologetics Study Bible, p. 1292).

I think that is a very strong argument against annihilationism.

Eternal sufferings beyond or last breath is needed to develop the oral traditions of angels, used the same a patron saints . . . gods without form coming down in the likeness of men

One manner of communing with the invisible entities . Our Father in heaven . Not or angels or patron saints .One invisible entity .One power.

Its appointed in dying that we come to a end of sufferings, , the daily pangs of hell ,Yoked with Christ He makes the sufferings lighter with a future hope beyond the grave

 

[Fastfredy0]

Of course Infinite God is immutable. The evidence you ignore, is the incarnation of Christ:

Jesus wept. (Jn. 11:35 NKJ)

You need to study the "hypostatic union". There are attributes of Christ that are not divine. For example, Christ is not bodily omnipresent. Christ's human nature is not all knowing (“But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the father” (Mark 13:32)).
So your mentioning the characteristics of Christ's human nature is irrelevant.

This is not "conflating" divine and human nature because PASSION etc is not about "nature", its about the PERSON.

We disagree. Not much sense continuing as we perceive God using different standards.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I apologize for not giving my full attention to your responses. I can make the time.

Not a problem.