My point is that with the eye witness accounts, and the effects belief (in Christ), have had on some I know, and others I never met, it is not difficult to adhere to the same beliefs.
God of the Bible is not all loving.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Not much to believe in there.
They have a job to do.
But none of them would be necessary if everyone obeyed God.
I had nothing to do with it, as it was before my time.
If this nation had turned to God, we would not be going to wars.
I know.
Just like God destroyed armies several times sent to destroy Jerusalem in the OT...but God did it without using men.
So God gets the glory instead of weapons manufacturers.
So if we lived holy ,everyone isn't gonna get saved and let alone not fight .that's the point .God also told the apostles to arm themselves and to ask for money .
Buy a sword and scrip and food .they didn't need it until then .there is no promise of Godly deliverencd from bodily death but a function of Govt is to have laws and also to defend themselves .
The bible doesn't tell me how to tear apart my Tacoma to fix things nor how to operate a CDL class vehicle .
Sure wars are causes by sin but I'm a Jew .
My family being refugees left the Ukraine then Russia from pograms.
In the past plenty of christians were murdered in the colonial fighting of France ,Spain and Britain.
It's why the pilgrims came here and the Quakers .
Sadly the pilgrims decided to go south at times but the reasons for the first amendment is a digression .
You can't run a state on that idea.
Death to witchres?
Adultery,fornication and what not?
In fact the pharisees were judged by Jesus who told them I will send you apostles ,prophets and etc and you will slay them so that you will know in the day of judgement that I am The Lord.
No deliverence for Paul ,Stephen and James ,Peter they died as martyrs .
Does your standard apply only to God, or to you as well? Would you love those who despise you, rob rape and murder your children, defile your home with abominations?
Suppose they don't know you exist, but live in your house and do things you hate and find disgusting. Would you still love them?
PS. Your argument is a straw man, God doesn't burn his own children in hell, ever. He burns Satan's children there. He is all loving to His children. While He does not desire the devil's children die, He'd rather they repent and live, they are the children of the devil, not His.
They made their own choice.
He would be a tyrant if He overruled their choice. Not an all loving God of truth, justice and the right way.
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But not in your post #7 to which my post #58 was directed. You had written that "someone who wants to believe, no miracles are necessary". Regarding that comment I asked if you were suggesting that beliefs can be obtained by simply choosing to have them? You replied "Of course" in your post #65. In my post #66 I simply asked if you might demonstrate such an ability.
But how do they get there after they are judged and found to not be included in the Book of Life?
Re: what/who is the ultimate revelation of God
I grant Christ is the greatest revelation of God as He is God. But much of the population is dead and have never heard of Christ and for them I would say 'nature' is the ultimate revelation of God.
If you can't see the aspect of the discussion then I don't think you are being serious (giggle)
Aside: You have a habit of not addressing my points directly (if at all)
Re: Give a biblical definition or use my definition.
Note: I defined the salient words in the question of the thread as I think it is essential to the understanding of one's answers, but that's just me. (giggle)
Could I get serious? That's not a pleasant way to exchange ideas ...
I grant Christ is the greatest revelation of God as He is God. But much of the population is dead and have never heard of Christ and for them I would say 'nature' is the ultimate revelation of God.
If you can't see the aspect of the discussion then I don't think you are being serious (giggle)
Well, we haven't defined revelation. I think you are confining it to scripture and if the is the agreed definition, then I agree revelation is complete. But there is personal revelation as scripture says Christ is in us and leads us, the degree of leading is debated. I believe when a Christian dies revelation will increase greatly: Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
Agreed ... My definition of love did not include these attributes.
We both agree to your statement though the underlying causes we would disagree... but that evades the point I made which is that it is obvious that God does not favor (love) people in hell.
Aside: You have a habit of not addressing my points directly (if at all)
The context in which you use the term "image of God" indicated to me that you had a non-biblical understanding of the term ... but that is another tangent that is not applicable to this thread IMO.
Re: Give a biblical definition or use my definition.
Well, if you can't define the words that are the subject of the thread then we will just talk past each other.
Note: I defined the salient words in the question of the thread as I think it is essential to the understanding of one's answers, but that's just me. (giggle)
I've studied the subject. Christians are divided and there answers are obtuse. I grant that you think you know the answer.
Maybe. You would not define LOVE when I asked so it's hard to know. If you won't define what you mean then the discussion will inevitably "go off the rails".
That doesn't happen, Christ gives ETERNAL life upon belief in Him, not temporary life for a time. Also, no one can snatch the believer out of God's Saving Hands, "no one" includes the believer. Once in His hands, you are His and He does not lose you. Even if you must be purged of all sin in Hell fire, "once saved always saved"::
27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
30 "I and My Father are one." (Jn. 10:27-30 NKJ)
No child saved by grace goes to hell, that is only reserved for willful sinners. Do not be deceived, no one can enter God's Kingdom, including the children of God, until they will repent:
7 Now therefore, it is already an utter failure for you that you go to law against one another. Why do you not rather accept wrong? Why do you not rather let yourselves be cheated?
8 No, you yourselves do wrong and cheat, and you do these things to your brethren!
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
(1 Cor. 6:7-10 NKJ)
Paul spoke this to BELIEVERS, not unbelievers.
But I am confident the believer enslaved to sin and delusion will immediately in Hades, repent just as did the Rich Man in HADES. They "live according to God in the Spirit" in hell, until the Rapture. But those who die unbelievers, and repent after the Rapture, rise on Judgment Day to life.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-5:1 NKJ)
All who obey Christ's voice while in Hell will rise to the "resurrection of life"
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
(Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)
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Of course not, the majority appear to be cast into the lake of fire on Judgment Day:
And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:15 NKJ)
One must recall the final generation of earth is exceedingly sinful, many followers of the Beast. Notice how John phrases this, "anyone not found" does imply SOME were found, but they weren't the majority.
"Anyone not having a ticket, couldn't see the show" = some had tickets, but not most.
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Same everyone has had since Adam sinned; we must choose right over wrong:
"If you do well, will you not be accepted? (Gen. 4:7 NKJ)
Right is believing in Jesus, the only Name given whereby we can be saved.
Wrong is rejecting God's offer of salvation. Woe to all who do that.
Adam and Eve went to hell when they died. Only believers in Jesus can avoid hell. But in hell the gospel (timeless) was preached to them, and they now live according to God in the Spirit, separated from all terrors and torments of hell:
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)
The righteous dead before Christ, especially the saints under the law, immediately went to "PARADISE" or "third heaven" (Abraham's bosom, Lazarus) because their souls were "gathered to their people" by angels:
8 Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people (Gen. 25:8 NKJ)
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. (Lk. 16:22 NKJ)
43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)
But that was possible ONLY because when they died the timeless gospel of Christ was preached to them, and they gladly believed and were saved "by grace through faith."
All saved by grace in Christ go to the same place when they die.
But because willful sinners cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, willfully sinning believers go to hell to be purged of all slavery to sin. I am confident it happens nearly instantly, and then they "live according to God in the Spirit" until the rapture, or judgment day if they lived after the rapture, rising with the righteous written in the book of life.
Its better to not willfully sin, and avoid all that unpleasantness. Then when you die, you immediately go into the presence of the LORD with the other saints.
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If everyone was holy, nobody would need to fight.
Where did Jesus ask the disciples to ask for money ?
Government is not holy, so they can't depend on God for their deliverance...either physically or Spiritually.
So what ?
Your avatar said you were a Christian.
They went south well before coming here.
What idea ?
We are not in the OT anymore.
So far, that is true. But what has that got to do with anything in my post ?
They had already been delivered, from sin.
The vessel counts for nothing.
You are confusing Gehenna (lake of fire) with "hades". You aren't alone, ever since Catholics skewed eschatology Prots and everyone else continue in the same error.
Christ warned about Gehenna, not Hades, unfortunate most versions also confuse them, translating both as "hell". Young's Literal does not:
YLT Matt. 5:22 but I -- I say to you, that every one who is angry at his brother without cause, shall be in danger of the judgment, and whoever may say to his brother, Empty fellow! shall be in danger of the sanhedrim, and whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire.
YLT Matt. 5:29 'But, if thy right eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
YLT Matt. 5:30 'And, if thy right hand doth cause thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast from thee, for it is good to thee that one of thy members may perish, and not thy whole body be cast to gehenna.
YLT Matt. 10:28 'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
YLT Matt. 18:9 'And if thine eye doth cause thee to stumble, pluck it out and cast from thee; it is good for thee one-eyed to enter into the life, rather than having two eyes to be cast to the gehenna of the fire.
YLT Matt. 23:15 'Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye go round the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen -- ye make him a son of gehenna twofold more than yourselves.
YLT Matt. 23:33 'Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
YLT Mk. 9:43 'And if thy hand may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee maimed to enter into the life, than having the two hands, to go away to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
YLT Mk. 9:45 'And if thy foot may cause thee to stumble, cut it off; it is better for thee to enter into the life lame, than having the two feet to be cast to the gehenna, to the fire -- the unquenchable --
YLT Mk. 9:47 And if thine eye may cause thee to stumble, cast it out; it is better for thee one-eyed to enter into the reign of God, than having two eyes, to be cast to the gehenna of the fire --
YLT Lk. 12:5 but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.
Christ's "prophecy/parable" the Pharisees (Rich Man) would not repent even if dead Lazarus was resurrected as a witness to them, does not depict Hades as a place of eternal torment. Abraham calls him "child/son", and both he and the redeemed with him wanted to comfort the Rich Man but could not. Like everyone else in Hades, he will rise on judgment day. Hades is NOT the place of eternal torment.
It is where the unsaved dead go to hear the gospel preached (perhaps for the first time), and make their decision.
Its also where willfully sinning Christians are liberated from slavery to sin they couldn't defeat in life.
The wicked go to the lowest sheol/hell, where they wait for judgment day and to be cast into the lake of fire/gehenna.
Gehenna is a place of PHYSICAL torment, wicked souls imprisoned in abominable corpses that will burn in eternal fire, and their worms will not die out. They misused the body God gave for evil pleasure, therefore the body now communicates the wrath of an offended God to the soul trapped within.
NKJ Isaiah 66:24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa. 66:24 NKJ)
But not all suffer in gehenna eternally. Some only for an instant and then they are annihilated, "burned up":
You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts. (Mal. 4:3 NKJ)
So Christ warned about fearing Gehenna, not Hades:
YLT Matthew 10:28 'And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna. (Matt. 10:28 YLT)
Well, one or both of us don't know accurately what the ELECT means. You saying you're right and I'm wrong is a statement without foundation.
I can give instruction as to how the trip is avoided but that once again is not relevant to the thread. The thread is to discuss whether or not GOD IS ALL LOVING ... not how to avoid hell.
Man's love for his fellow man is again not pertinent to the thread. You accuse me of derailing yet it is you that posts doctrinal statements that are either irrelevant or you fail to show the relevance. You won't even define GOD'S LOVE when asked even though that is the topic at hand. The foundation of arguments about a topic depend on an understanding of the topic which includes an understanding of the terms being discussed. You avoid that. I, on the other hand, define agape love and quote the bible to show aspects of God's love and then apply it to the question at hand. Try it .... you will save a lot of time being wasted on talking past each other because of a lack of common understanding of what is being discussed.
God's love is "passionless" = unemotional cold distant...How can you say that?
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (Jn. 3:16 NKJ)
3 The LORD has appeared of old to me, saying: "Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love; Therefore with lovingkindness I have drawn you.
4 Again I will build you, and you shall be rebuilt, O virgin of Israel! You shall again be adorned with your tambourines, And shall go forth in the dances of those who rejoice.
5 You shall yet plant vines on the mountains of Samaria; The planters shall plant and eat them as ordinary food.
6 For there shall be a day When the watchmen will cry on Mount Ephraim,`Arise, and let us go up to Zion, To the LORD our God.'"
7 For thus says the LORD: "Sing with gladness for Jacob, And shout among the chief of the nations; Proclaim, give praise, and say,`O LORD, save Your people, The remnant of Israel!'
8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, And gather them from the ends of the earth, Among them the blind and the lame, The woman with child And the one who labors with child, together; A great throng shall return there.
9 They shall come with weeping, And with supplications I will lead them. I will cause them to walk by the rivers of waters, In a straight way in which they shall not stumble; For I am a Father to Israel, And Ephraim is My firstborn. (Jer. 31:3-9 NKJ)
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (Eph. 2:4-7 NKJ)
My favorite song
"Because he loves me," says the LORD, "I will rescue him; I will protect him, for he acknowledges my name. (Ps. 91:14 NIV)
Hi Alfred Persson
That's right and we find that proven in the Revelation account. Where we are told that death and hades will give up the dead that are in them when the second resurrection comes.
God bless,
Ted
Most Christians interpret the Lake of fire (aka Second Death from which there is no resurrection), as either a place that consumes (annihilates the wicked), or "eternal torment" which they prove by referring to Revelation 20:10 "The devil...was cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet are. And they will be tormented ....forever".
However, that binary construct fails the symbolism, which can symbolize both. Everyone is not as sinful as the devil and false prophet, nor can everyone receive the same penalty if they are judged "each one according to his works."
Moreover, it is written those cast into the lake will receive "their lot or destiny, their part" (3313 μέρος meros, Re. 21:8)
"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part (3313 μέρος meros) in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:8 NKJ)
So they receive what their works deserve. Therefore, we must conclude with the ancient Rabbis of Christ's day, that Gehenna fire will consume some of those cast into it, body and soul. While they debated whether this destruction of the corpse they were raised in (like the TV show the Living Dead, only it doesn't walk around), also destroyed the soul, NT scripture answers that question, God alone has immortality (1 Tim. 6:16):
The bodies consumed by the lake of fire which become ashes are destroyed with the souls within them, both are "burned up":
You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts. (Mal. 4:3 NKJ)
They are dead, they will not live; They are deceased, they will not rise. Therefore You have punished and destroyed (08045 שָׁמַד shamad) them, And made all their memory to perish. (Isa. 26:14 NKJ)
08045 שָׁמַד shamad {shaw-mad'}
Meaning: 1) to destroy, exterminate, be destroyed, be exterminated 1a) (Niphal) 1a1) to be annihilated, be exterminated 1a2) to be destroyed, be devastated 1b) (Hiphil) 1b1) to annihilate, exterminate 1b2) to destroy
What Paul the apostle and other Jewish Rabbis believed in the days of Christ:
The sinners of Israel with their bodies and the sinners of the Gentiles with their bodies descend to Gehinnom and are judged there for twelve months. After twelve months their bodies are destroyed, and their souls burnt and scattered by a wind under the soles of the feet of the righteous; as it is said, "Ye shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet" (Mal. iv. 3). But the sectaries, informers, epicureans who denied the Torah and denied the Resurrection, they who separated themselves from the ways of the community, they who set their dread in the land of the living, and they who, like Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his associates, sinned and caused the multitude to sin (cf. r Kings xiv. 16), will descend to Gehinnom and be judged there generations on generations; as it is said, "They shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched" (Is. lxvi. 24). Gehinnom will cease but they will not cease (to suffer); as it is said, "Their form shall be for Sheol to consume that there be no habitation for it" (Ps. xlix. 14). Concerning them said Hannah, "They that strive with the Lord shall be broken to pieces" (I Sam. ii. Jo). R. Isaac b. Abin said, Their faces will be black like the bottom of a pot' (R.H. 16b et seq.).
"We gather from this extract that in the first century one of the principal Schools, influenced by a verse from Daniel, assigned the utterly wicked to eternal punishment; but the other School found such a doctrine incompatible with Divine mercy. Sinners must be penalized. They undergo twelve months of pain and then suffer annihilation because they are unworthy of entrance into Gan Eden. They who have been exceptionally wicked stay in Gehinnom for `generations on generations.' That this expression does not signify eternity is clear from the statement that Gehinnom will cease.' They will not, after their sufferings there, undergo extinction, but will continue in existence as conscious entities—how and where is not explained—in a perpetual state of remorse."-Everyman's Talmud, Abraham Cohen, Schocken Books, (1995 reprint).
While the Rabbis couldn't decide if the wicked souls died when their abominable resurrection bodies were consumed by the fire, it logically follows that is the case even if we don't factor in only God is immortal, not souls. The resurrection body is God's chosen vessel of wrath fitted to punish according to works. It follows the soul ceases when the punishment ends. Those not guilty of eternal sins (like the Devil), shouldn't be punished or suffer for eternity.
This is confirmed by scripture because it warns there is "eternal torment" for accepting the Mark of the Beast (Rev. 14:9-11).
That requires all guilty of works of lesser evil must receive "less than eternal torment" or the warning of "eternal torment" is without force.
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Bible never says God murdered his Own Son or any of his followers. Those are the only Childrren he has.
Let your mom know our God who created both of you said,
Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Mt.10:35 NIV
Jesus said this because his teachings divide even those withn the same house, like Cain and Abel.
So if you love your mom as much as you think, share my post with her before my Savior, whom you seem to despise for ni reason. She might want to change her mind.