God the Father and Jesus the Lord:

[dadof10]

What do you think about the crystal clear declaration by Thomas in Jn. 20:28? It is obvious that Thomas is speaking to Jesus, and Jesus accepts his declaration. You must reconcile ALL of Scripture, not just pet verses.

Hi dadof10

So obviously, this is one of your pet verses, right ?

It wouldn't be if someone would simply give me a logical answer...

What about John 20:17 ? It is a part of the context you know ! And John 20:17 can not contradict John 20:28, nor can John 20:28 contradict John 20:17 --

This is not one, though....

Jn. 20:17 CLEARLY states that YHWH is Jesus' God. It's undeniable. Jesus REPEATEDLY calls the God of Israel, YHWH, His God throughout Scripture.

Jn. 20:28 CLEARLY shows Thomas calling Jesus YHWH because Thomas says "my God", and a Jew's God is YHWH.

So it is clear, that Thomas was talking "about" God, whom raise Jesus from the dead !

So your solution to these seemingly contradictory verses is to bring your bias into the text and explain away one CLEAR verse in favor of another? If you will notice, Trinitarians say BOTH concepts are true. Jesus is both God and man. He has two natures, one human and one divine. We RECONCILE the two passages, we don't accept one and make ridiculous claims about the other.

Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing." 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (John (RSV) 20)

It could not be more obvious that Jesus and Thomas are having an intimate, one-on-one conversation. If I read this to any 10 year old, and asked "who is Thomas talking about", his answer would invariably be "Jesus". That's assuming the 10 year old had no preconceived bias.

 

[dadof10]

**BUMP for Shad**

I don't have much time, but wish to touch on this quickly.

Jason, I am only talking about clear verses. You trinitarians always use ambiguous verses to make up your own doctrine.

Define "clear verses". I see Jn. 20:28 as one of the clearest verses in Scripture. Thomas simply says "my lord and my God" directly to Jesus, and Jesus replies directly to Him, "You have BELIEVED because you have seen..."

Where is the ambiguity?

 

[Free]

Hi Free:

I understand why you posted what you did. I fully believe that shad didn't mean exactly what you think he meant. I think he was thinking in line with defending his opening post. I believe he misread you. Then you misread him, in thinking that he might believe that in some way God is not Lord over all.

Take this up with him !

I merely was pointing out, that the word "Lord" has a specific meaning. And it is used in different ways throughout scripture. This is why I quoted Acts 2:34 where King David referenced two Lord's.

Nonetheless, the word "Lord" means - over, in its simpliest terms.

Wow MM! Are you reading anything at all? The OP states nothing about God being Lord over all and Jesus being Lord only of the body of Christ. You are making assumptions about what shad is saying.

I have tried taking it up with him but in accordance with his usual manner, he has completely failed to address my posts and relied on you, for whatever reason. If you are not going to read what is posted, then please stay out of someone else's conversation.

Hi Free :

Please, either take it up with shad, or let it lie there like a fallen tree in the forest. And what is wrong with another poster accepting my comments ? It just means that in some way I was helpful, don't you agree ?

Once again, you are not reading what I wrote or you are not understanding. Am I not clear?

I am not trying to take this up with you or anyone, I have made it abundantly clear that I am trying to engage shad. So please stop telling me take it up with shad.

And I have no problem with accepting another posters' comments. I clearly stated "If you are not going to read what is posted then please stay out of someone else's conversation." You didn't read my post to him where he made it clear that he was saying that only Jesus was Lord and not the Father and made an assumption about what shad was saying.

 

[MarkT]

The scientifically minded logical theologians gave us the trinity, but there's no spirituual truth in it. It's their human understanding. But the true servants of God receive a better understanding. They seek insight.

God called his own name to be his Son; our Father, hallowed be thy name.

 

[Mysteryman]

What do you think about the crystal clear declaration by Thomas in Jn. 20:28? It is obvious that Thomas is speaking to Jesus, and Jesus accepts his declaration. You must reconcile ALL of Scripture, not just pet verses.

Hi dadof10

So obviously, this is one of your pet verses, right ?

It wouldn't be if someone would simply give me a logical answer...

What about John 20:17 ? It is a part of the context you know ! And John 20:17 can not contradict John 20:28, nor can John 20:28 contradict John 20:17 --

This is not one, though....

Jn. 20:17 CLEARLY states that YHWH is Jesus' God. It's undeniable. Jesus REPEATEDLY calls the God of Israel, YHWH, His God throughout Scripture.

Jn. 20:28 CLEARLY shows Thomas calling Jesus YHWH because Thomas says "my God", and a Jew's God is YHWH.

[quote:3ozpo1sd] So it is clear, that Thomas was talking "about" God, whom raise Jesus from the dead !

So your solution to these seemingly contradictory verses is to bring your bias into the text and explain away one CLEAR verse in favor of another? If you will notice, Trinitarians say BOTH concepts are true. Jesus is both God and man. He has two natures, one human and one divine. We RECONCILE the two passages, we don't accept one and make ridiculous claims about the other.

Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side; do not be faithless, but believing." 28 Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." (John (RSV) 20)

It could not be more obvious that Jesus and Thomas are having an intimate, one-on-one conversation. If I read this to any 10 year old, and asked "who is Thomas talking about", his answer would invariably be "Jesus". That's assuming the 10 year old had no preconceived bias.[/quote:3ozpo1sd]


Hi dadof10

First, it was God whom raised Jesus from the dead, and Thomas knew this. This is why Thomas said - "My Lord and My God".

The scripture speaks of babes in the Word, for they are unskillful in the scriptures.

The rest of scripture supports this, that God raised his son from the dead. Do I need to bring forth those verses for you ?

Why Thomas doubted, and why he is called doubting Thomas, is because he needed to see before he totally believed. Greater are those who believe yet have not seen, that God raised his Son from the dead.

 

[Free]

Then please tell me who is being referred to by 'Lord' in the following passages:

Rev 4:11 "Worthy are you, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they existed and were created."

Ok, I know this is talking about God the Father clearly. My explanation was not adequate but I also said that in OT they did not know about Jesus clearly and Jesus and His disciples made it clear abundantly in the New Testament. Please dont nitpick over my incomplete explanation.

Of course I'm going to "nitpick." You cannot be serious about debating anything if you're not clear, concise, and complete in what you are arguing. Don't leave anything open to assumption on the part of your readers/opponents.

What do you mean by "in OT they did not know about Jesus clearly and Jesus and His disciples made it clear abundantly in the New Testament?"

God is also called LORD because He is the LORD of everything and every creation including Jesus. Jesus is our Lord because God put Him in charge of us His servants.

Rev 17:14, They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful. (ESV)

Rev 19:13-16, 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and 14he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. (ESV)

PS, I just took one of your verses, so please dont come after me over trivial things. I ask you to speak like an adult.

I have done nothing but speak as an adult.

 

[Free]

The scientifically minded logical theologians gave us the trinity, but there's no spirituual truth in it. It's their human understanding. But the true servants of God receive a better understanding. They seek insight.

So says your human understanding. ;)

 

[LaCrum]

First, it was God whom raised Jesus from the dead, and Thomas knew this. This is why Thomas said - "My Lord and My God".

Actually it was the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11) who rose Jesus from the dead, not God the Father.

 

[Mysteryman]

First, it was God whom raised Jesus from the dead, and Thomas knew this. This is why Thomas said - "My Lord and My God".

Actually it was the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11) who rose Jesus from the dead, not God the Father.

Hi :

Galatians 1:1 -- "God the Father, who raised him from the dead"

 

[watchman F]

First, it was God whom raised Jesus from the dead, and Thomas knew this. This is why Thomas said - "My Lord and My God".

Actually it was the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11) who rose Jesus from the dead, not God the Father.

Hi :

Galatians 1:1 -- "God the Father, who raised him from the dead"

This is exactly my point you both have scripture that apparently say opposing things you both hold to one verse while ignoring/denying the validity of the other. Why??? Why do you do this? If the Bible says it, then it is true. You cannot argue scripture against scripture it is absurd. The Fact is that the holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father. These verses do not say opposing thing they both say the same thing. God the Father, and the Holy Spirit are the same.

 

[Mysteryman]

First, it was God whom raised Jesus from the dead, and Thomas knew this. This is why Thomas said - "My Lord and My God".

Actually it was the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11) who rose Jesus from the dead, not God the Father.

Hi :

Galatians 1:1 -- "God the Father, who raised him from the dead"

This is exactly my point you both have scripture that apparently say opposing things you both hold to one verse while ignoring/denying the validity of the other. Why??? Why do you do this? If the Bible says it, then it is true. You cannot argue scripture against scripture it is absurd. The Fact is that the holy Spirit is the Spirit of God the Father. These verses do not say opposing thing they both say the same thing. God the Father, and the Holy Spirit are the same.[/quote]
-------------------------------------

Hi watchman:

Actually, Romans 8:11 and Galatians 1:1 are not opposing each other whatsoever. I was merely pointing out to Lacrum that there is a verse which states - God the Father.

God is the God and Father of or our Lord Jesus Christ. God is the Holy Spirit. But you still need to realize, that when the phrase - "the Spirit of God" is used, it is a remnant , or portion of God. Romans 8:11 states- "The Spirit" of/from him (Christ) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you" . In Romans 8:10 it tells us, that we have "Christ in you". The Spirit of Christ is from the Holy Spirit. Christ is not the Holy Spirit. God is the Holy Spirit. God is Spirit, the Holy Spirit. God raised his Son from the dead, who is the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, who is also his Father. So Romans 8:11 and Galatians 1:1 are in harmony with one another.

 

[shad]

Of course I'm going to "nitpick." You cannot be serious about debating anything if you're not clear, concise, and complete in what you are arguing. Don't leave anything open to assumption on the part of your readers/opponents.

You dont seem to be reading what MM says and he already added my missing explanation. That's why I am saying you are not speaking like an adult. It seems you are only interested in arguing.

What do you mean by "in OT they did not know about Jesus clearly and Jesus and His disciples made it clear abundantly in the New Testament?"

Ok this was another poor explanation. The Bible is using the word for both but they differentiating with LORD for God and Lord for Jesus.
But Trinitarians are mixing them up by saying they are both God because they are both called Lord.

Rev 17:14, They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful. (ESV)

In context it is talking about earthly lords and earthly kings. Of course Jesus is over them all.

 

[shad]

Rev 19:13-16, 13 He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. 14 And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. 15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and 14he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16 On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords. (ESV)

The same as the above.

I have done nothing but speak as an adult.

That is your opinion. I hope you are not just interested in arguing and fighting like a teenager.

 

[Free]

Of course I'm going to "nitpick." You cannot be serious about debating anything if you're not clear, concise, and complete in what you are arguing. Don't leave anything open to assumption on the part of your readers/opponents.

You dont seem to be reading what MM says and he already added my missing explanation. That's why I am saying you are not speaking like an adult. It seems you are only interested in arguing.

On the contrary, this is a debate forum and proper debate includes actually addressing peoples' arguments, as well as clearly and as completely as possible defining your own. Although I find it all too convenient that MM merely "added your missing explanation" as opposed to providing you a way out with your line of argument, I guess I'll take your word for it that that is what you meant. As long as you can now see what happens when you aren't clear in posting your arguments.

Rev 17:14, They will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful. (ESV)

In context it is talking about earthly lords and earthly kings. Of course Jesus is over them all.

It is a title used of God in the OT being applied to Christ.

That is your opinion. I hope you are not just interested in arguing and fighting like a teenager.

Stick to the arguments and do not insinuate I nor anyone else who disagrees with you is a teenager.

 

[shad]

I guess I'll take your word for it that that is what you meant. As long as you can now see what happens when you aren't clear in posting your arguments.

I am sorry Free, I am only being honest. I dont claim to be perfect in discussion. You dont have to be so argumentative just because my explanation is incomplete every now and then. Yes, you can expect me to not be so eloquent and perfect in arguments.

Stick to the arguments and do not insinuate I nor anyone else who disagrees with you is a teenager.

Ok.

 

[shad]

It is a title used of God in the OT being applied to Christ.

Please show me where. Thanks.

 

[dadof10]

{Summarization of "Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma", Dr. Lugwig Ott, pp 128-132}

Gotta love the classics.

 

[dadof10]

Once again, you are not reading what I wrote or you are not understanding. Am I not clear?

Crystal...

 

[dadof10]

First, it was God whom raised Jesus from the dead, and Thomas knew this. This is why Thomas said - "My Lord and My God".

Whom was this statement addressed to?

The scripture speaks of babes in the Word, for they are unskillful in the scriptures.

There is nothing "unskillful" in taking the plain words of Scripture at face value. I am ignoring the Ad Homs in the other Trinity thread, but I will not ignore them any more here. Please stop.

The rest of scripture supports this, that God raised his son from the dead. Do I need to bring forth those verses for you ?

Straw man. No one is denying that God raised Jesus from the dead. Thomas and Jesus were in the middle of a personal conversation. "Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"" ANSWERED HIM..., MM. Not "Thomas exclaimed..." or "Thomas fell into a trance and said to God...", NO "Thomas said to him..." Simple, huh?

 

[francisdesales]

Gotta love the classics.

When all else fails! Rather than proof text, I thought this might be more useful, but so far, I'm being ignored.

Do these guys think this is the first time such conversations have been held???