God will not convict believers of sin!

[Willie T]

The guilt and shame of your sin drives you to the forgiveness of God. That's the intention. You have a horrible misunderstanding of this matter if you think this is about wallowing in the shame and guilt of your sin. It's about honestly and humbly acknowledging that guilt and shame and then getting it wiped away through confession and repentance and the forgiveness of God. But the church has conveniently side stepped the conviction part in what I sense is at best a lack of faith in God's power to heal sin, and at worst an arrogance that doesn't want to acknowledge personal responsibility for sin. The church's attitude in general is one of 'let's not talk about how sinful we are, let's just talk about how great God is', not knowing that you can't separate the two. A genuine brokenness and sorrow over sin is the essential foundation for living in the forgiveness God gives. In our modern 'PC' era it's taboo to talk about sin guilt and taking personal responsibility for that sin.

What does my signature say? All that is straight out of the Bible.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

On the matter of having to feel all this guilt.... How much guilt is enough guilt?

How much? Whatever it takes to get you to the forgiveness of God and the healing balm of his Holy love given when we confess our sins and repent of them.

What if the guilt you feel isn't sufficient in the eyes of God.... or, if you didn't stay in that mode quite long enough?

This is what I was talking about when I said the church lacks faith in the healing forgiveness of God. By faith we accept that when we are truly sorry for our sins, and out of sorrow and brokenness we ask for God's forgiveness and believe that 'he is faithful and just to forgive us that sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness'. That is when you can tell satan to talk to the hand. But that hardly means you absolutely won't feel the pangs of what you have done wrong even knowing you've been truly forgiven by God.

I have to go back to my brain surgeries, and so I'm reminding myself here to post some excerpts from the prophet Ezekiel about what will happen in his people in this New Covenant concerning this matter of sin awareness and guilt. And it's hardly what the church is teaching today (in general).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What does my signature say? All that is straight out of the Bible.

The problem is when that truth causes a believer to become arrogant and no longer conscious of sin and ends up turning the grace of God into a license to sin without shame or sorrow. A kind of 'eh, God's got it covered' attitude. That's that flippant attitude I was talking about. Life change does not come from that kind of attitude. Life change comes from heartfelt brokenness and sorrow over sin leading to a humble, purposeful seeking of the forgiveness of God.

 

[Willie T]

If we were Spanish, God would be saying..."canta y no llores!" But we feel we have to cry enough to (I can't believe you actually said this...) do, "Whatever it takes to get you to the forgiveness of God".

Well, I'm already living in the forgiveness of God.

 

[Willie T]

The problem is when that truth causes a believer to become arrogant and no longer conscious of sin and ends up turning the grace of God into a license to sin without shame or sorrow. A kind of 'eh, God's got it covered' attitude. That's that flippant attitude I was talking about. Life change does not come from that kind of attitude. Life change comes from heartfelt brokenness and sorrow over sin leading to a humble, purposeful seeking of the forgiveness of God.

Oh, you are SO far from understanding His love... He does not ask us to grovel to "earn" His love.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If we were Spanish, God would be saying..."canta y no llores!" But we feel we have to cry enough to (I can't believe you actually said this...) do, "Whatever it takes to get you to the forgiveness of God".

Well, I'm already living in the forgiveness of God.

If you really do live in that forgiveness you do. But this is the point I was making. Grace is not a license to sin because you've already been forgiven.

This is a deep subject worthy of much more detail, but what is happening is you are showing the horrible misunderstanding of grace that grips the church at this present time.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh, you are SO far from understanding His love... He does not ask us to grovel to "earn" His love.

Again, you are simply ignorant of the truth about this and are relating the misguided indoctrination about it that so many have. It isn't about earning his love.

As time permits (I'm already late getting back to work) we can talk about the particular beliefs of the present grace movement in the church that are so terribly wrong. Where satan has been busy working is developing the kind of erroneous arguments about and against true grace that you have been sharing in this thread.

 

[Willie T]

How much? Whatever it takes to get you to the forgiveness of God and the healing balm of his Holy love given when we confess our sins and repent of them.


This is what I was talking about when I said the church lacks faith in the healing forgiveness of God. By faith we accept that when we are truly sorry for our sins, and out of sorrow and brokenness we ask for God's forgiveness and believe that 'he is faithful and just to forgive us that sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness'. That is when you can tell satan to talk to the hand. But that hardly means you absolutely won't feel the pangs of what you have done wrong even knowing you've been truly forgiven by God.

I have to go back to my brain surgeries, and so I'm reminding myself here to post some excerpts from the prophet Ezekiel about what will happen in his people in this New Covenant concerning this matter of sin awareness and guilt. And it's hardly what the church is teaching today (in general).

(Please <EXPAND> the "quote")
:shock

 

[Northman]

I'm wondering, did his despair bring him to God's forgiveness or did he take some kind of comfort that he can stay in the thing that is causing his despair and everything will be okay? Serious question.

Pretty sure it wasnt about any one thing at all, but rather what he was hearing on every single thing he did wrong. The paragraph I mentioned was the second paragraph of identity crisis, though by his description the last quoted sentence was much more vulgar.

I dont even think that is the right question to ask in his case. What we discussed was what the guy who wrote the article was talking about, not what this thread developed into. See my friend had been tricked. His mind has been trained to think the extended hand was actually a barbed whip. Every time an error was made the whip came. He felt no hope, only the condemnation. As one who was under that "whip" for many years I understood, and saw the author as one who understood as well.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I wasn't able to read everyone's posts, but I'd like to add something to the conversation. If that is alright?

I think that when we say "believer" we cast a big net. (but it is not like that) Just like when Jesus tells people at judgment "I never knew you". There is also a very small amount of people that make it through the narrow gate. So, what is a believer?

God has to give you revelation first, because it doesn't seem "possible" for him to have his literal Son walk in the flesh. Once he has given you this revelation, you want to know what his Son has said. After you know what he has said, you go to yourself "Holy, Holy, Holy Lord"..."I am so humbled".

Somewhere in that scenario, you have revelation that if he is the Son of God......then everything that they have said about him raising from the dead.....it 100% true....and at that moment, he sends you the Holy Spirit

So, if you have been given the eyes to see the truth.......you want to be walking in the Holy Spirit and the light. You will have the "fruit of the Spirit".

God will not convict true believers of sin. But, seems like there are few

On the thread "what are you listening to now". The video I posted on Monday goes along with this. In the lyrics, it says "He didn't die for nothing". You can't say you know him, and be the same as you were before you knew him.

 

[Chopper]

First of all the word "convict" is only used once in the N.T. it is found in John 8:9 "And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience." the word "convict" according to Strongs is replaced by these words,
ἐλέγχω
elegchō
el-eng'-kho
Of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish: - convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.

I personally like James 5:19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

I just think that we need to be careful how we present our views so that new believers are not mis-informed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

(Please <EXPAND> the "quote")
:shock

Uh oh!

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I see someone's doctrine showing through.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

First of all the word "convict" is only used once in the N.T. it is found in John 8:9 "And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience." the word "convict" according to Strongs is replaced by these words,
ἐλέγχω
elegchō
el-eng'-kho
Of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish: - convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.

I personally like James 5:19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

I just think that we need to be careful how we present our views so that new believers are not mis-informed.

As I said in the beginning, I think we'll all learn the most from this entry in Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

Strong's Number:g1651

Convict (Including the Av, Convince):

signifies
(a) "to convict, confute, refute," usually with the suggestion of putting the convicted person to shame; see Mat 18:15, where more than telling the offender his fault is in view; it is used of "convicting" of sin, Jhn 8:46; 16:8; gainsayers in regard to the faith, Tts 1:9; transgressors of the Law, Jam 2:9; some texts have the verb in Jhn 8:9...​

We're playing the world's game when we try to take the sting out of being convicted of wrong-doing. We should be convicted when we do wrong. I would never tell an adulterer, for example, not to be convicted of his sin. I would not dumb it down in any way shape or form. That doesn't mean you can't be compassionate and understanding to him about their failure, but that is what seems to be the problem here—that somehow conviction of sin can only be contrary and opposed to being loving and compassionate.

We don't make conviction go away by redefining conviction in an attempt to take the sting out of it. We make it go away by asking God to forgive us and cleanse us of the unrighteousness of our wrong-doing. Where, why, and how did the church lose touch with this basic truth of Christianity?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Pretty sure it wasnt about any one thing at all, but rather what he was hearing on every single thing he did wrong. The paragraph I mentioned was the second paragraph of identity crisis, though by his description the last quoted sentence was much more vulgar.

I dont even think that is the right question to ask in his case. What we discussed was what the guy who wrote the article was talking about, not what this thread developed into. See my friend had been tricked. His mind has been trained to think the extended hand was actually a barbed whip. Every time an error was made the whip came. He felt no hope, only the condemnation. As one who was under that "whip" for many years I understood, and saw the author as one who understood as well.

Doesn't he believe in the forgiveness of God?

 

[Willie T]

As I said in the beginning, I think we'll all learn the most from this entry in Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

Strong's Number:g1651

Convict (Including the Av, Convince):

signifies
(a) "to convict, confute, refute," usually with the suggestion of putting the convicted person to shame; see Mat 18:15, where more than telling the offender his fault is in view; it is used of "convicting" of sin, Jhn 8:46; 16:8; gainsayers in regard to the faith, Tts 1:9; transgressors of the Law, Jam 2:9; some texts have the verb in Jhn 8:9...​

We're playing the world's game when we try to take the sting out of being convicted of wrong-doing. We should be convicted when we do wrong. I would never tell an adulterer, for example, not to be convicted of his sin. I would not dumb it down in any way shape or form. That doesn't mean you can't be compassionate and understanding to him about their failure, but that is what seems to be the problem here—that somehow conviction of sin can only be contrary and opposed to being loving and compassionate.

We don't make conviction go away by redefining conviction in an attempt to take the sting out of it. We make it go away by asking God to forgive us and cleanse us of the unrighteousness of our wrong-doing. Where, why, and how did the church lose touch with this basic truth of Christianity?

Are you seriously saying you believe that you have to re-negotiate your forgiveness each and every time you sin? And that if you should sin after doing that a hundred times, that you have to do it all again for the 101th time, and every mistake thereafter?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Are you seriously saying you believe that you have to re-negotiate your forgiveness each and every time you sin? And that if you should sin after doing that a hundred times, that you have to do it all again for the 101th time, and every mistake thereafter?

I see now that was your doctrine showing through in that other post. You apparently believe, along with so many in the church, that forgiveness is a one time event and that everything is done and said from that point onward--no matter what you do.

What I believe, Willie, is that you are to confess your sin when you commit it.

15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another..." (James 5:15-16 NASB)

If you have a hard time accepting that we are to confess our sins after we are saved, it may be because you believe, along with so many in the church, that doing that amounts to getting saved all over again (which it is not). Am I right?

 

[Karl]

Maybe this might help and shed some light on this subject.

I think we all can agree our hearts are deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jer 17:9 ...that means I don't know my own heart, I can be deceived by my own heart, but God knows our hearts inside and out, nothing is hidden from Him.

With that in mind, Paul tells us we are the Temple of God, that our bodies are the Temple of God, that we are to keep our body (Temple) clean, pure and holy.

Since we are living souls that have a spirit and live inside a body and we express ourselves through our will directed by our mind, let's take a very quick look at how we correspond to Solomon's Temple, and remember David added two things that were not in the Tabernacle built by Moses from the plans God had given him on the Mountain.

The Holy of Holies corresponds ------------> to our spirit
The Holy Place corresponds ----------------> to our heart
The Inner Court corresponds ----------------> to our soul
The Outer Court corresponds ---------------> to our body

The two structures David added were the Porch with it's Pillars 1 Kg 6:3 and the thirty Chambers 1 Kg 6:6 built on the outside of the Temple, three stories high and on three sides.

The Porch corresponds------------------------> to our will
The Chambers corresponds-----------------> to our mind, both conscious and subconscious

Paul tells us,

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. Rom 12:1, 2

I think we all can also agree that when we were regenerated, born again, the Lord washed us clean from all of the habitual sin we had been living in, but there is more, Paul tells us we need to renew our minds, since the Chambers were for the priests to eat in and store the stuff, they naturally became dirty and needed to be cleaned, so it is with our conscious and subconscious mind, they need cleaning.

This is where the conviction, condemning, reproving, loss of communion what ever you want to call it, comes in from the Holy Spirit, yes my sin is forgotten by God, tied up in a sack and thrown into the deepest part of the ocean, and when I go before Father and say, "Father I have sinned again," He responds with, "Again? I don't remember when you have sinned before," ...but, we remember it! ...and when we remember how many times, one, twenty or how many, we are convicted in our hearts and want to change, but we can't, we cant change our will (because it is something man has added to God's Temple Gen 3:6), but we can change our hearts and if we change our hearts then God has our authority to change our will (God will never change our will without our permission), in so doing, changing our will, we need to clean out the Chambers, our subconscious and that can only be done by God and that is our prayer from the heart, "Lord Jesus, I do not want to continue on like this, therefor I give you permission to clean out all of the junk, filth, crud that I have placed/stored in my subconscious over the years."

We can use Phil 4:8 to repress the unclean thoughts that surface in our minds, but only the Lord can cleanse the subconscious and that is just more of the process of being conformed into the image of Jesus Christ.

This is the teaching that Jethro has stated is missing from the Church today, which causes God's kids to stumble and fall, yes there is no condemnation from God, but we know we have failed, we know we have missed the mark and if we are truly walking with the Lord we will know when our sin has cause the sweet loving communion between our Heavenly Father and us is broken, ...David said it was like his bones were broken and his soul were vexed when he was in sin and communion with the Father had been broken Ps 6, 32, so it is with us, the Holy Spirit is grieved and if we persist in our sin He can be quenched.

Father grants us grace until the time we become mature enough in the Lord to understand when our communion is broken, ...the Holy Spirit will bring a verse to our minds,

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:16

that should cause us to consider what we are doing, but we can resist the Holy Spirit's promptings, which leads to grieving Him that results in quenching Him, which causes Father to chastens us, which we all have experienced, unless we are bastards, Heb 12:6-8.

So yes my heart is deceitful and desperately wicked, and it's only the Holy Spirit working in my life that can/will change it, ...no matter what you want to call it, ...it's all of grace.

 

[Willie T]

I see now that was your doctrine showing through in that other post. You apparently believe, along with so many in the church, that forgiveness is a one time event and that everything is done and said from that point onward--no matter what you do.

What I believe, Willie, is that you are to confess your sin when you commit it.

15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another..." (James 5:15-16 NASB)

If you have a hard time accepting that we are to confess our sins after we are saved, it may be because you believe, along with so many in the church, that doing that amounts to getting saved all over again (which it is not). Am I right?

If you will go back and read what I told you I typically say to God when I have blown it once again, you will read me both confessing and expressing my sorrow at hurting God (and/or men).

What you will not see is me insulting God by telling Him that I do not believe I am forgiven... and that I have to ask His son to go back to the cross for me, because I don't believe Jesus got it right the first time when He said "It is finished."
No, you do not, and will not, see me saying that... NOR that I believe I have to make a "forgiveness sacrifice" of repeatedly asking for forgiveness that I already have through Jesus' sacrifice. I have faith in what Jesus did.

 

[ezra]

there has to be conviction peter was convicted when the rooster crowed And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

 

[Karl]

there has to be conviction peter was convicted when the rooster crowed And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

Thank you brother, you have given a New Testament illustration to what we have written.