God will not convict believers of sin!

[ezra]

Thank you brother, you have given a New Testament illustration to what we have written.

its all good i dont focus on sin .sin has no control over me because i am under grace and not law. what we fail to realize is just cause the bird builds the nest.don,t mean the nest has to stay there. sin is there but we can overcome it if we chose to.

 

[YosefHayim]

'm guessing this means that if we love God with all our Heart, all our Mind, and all our Power, but (unintentionally) screw up from time to time, He's not going to hold it against us because He knows our hearts are set on him. Do I got it right?
I'd call that a bull's-eye.


Man thats like saying once saved always saved and we know God will forgive us our sins so hey come on lets just do what ever we want.....
The Holy Spirit does and will convict you of wrong doing...that is if YOU have ears to hear and have a close relationship with Him. If we as believers did not get a conviction of our sinning then we would NOT ever repent and grow.......If you have no conviction within your walk with GOD then you are either the only perfect man out side of Jesus or you really are not renewing your mind and walking close with God.

Now in John we are told if we are faithful to confess our sins and trespasses to Him that He is not only True and Just to forgive us of these sins BUT clense us of all unrightiousness. This is NOT simply a one time thing when we get born again...........NO NO NO..........Sin in our lives will Stop the flow of the Blessing and will Hinder your Walk within the Kingdom of God.....which should be right where you are now. SOOOOOOOO no conviction then no repenting and no clensing either.

Repentance is simply a change of mind; agreeing with God that you are a general sinner, not individual sins. We are saved by grace through faith, not repentance.

How do we grow? Well how does a book get longer? The writer writes more. And God is the author of our faith.

Eternal Security is not saying we are free to sin. In fact the scripture that says "they turned the Grace of God into a license to sin" can be translated "they traded the Grace of God for sin". If you trade Grace, you're trading the gospel. They rejected the Gospel, and traded it in for sin. [Source. Note I do not condone the MSG translation, but rather the breakdown].

Don't you know that our only work is to believe? Faith is where works are generated from. If you are saved, fruit is going to happen. John 15 says that when we fail to bear fruit as Christians, Yeshua fixes us up that our fruit will grow again... "
for apart from Me you can do nothing”. If you're not saved you can't do anything. If you are, you can, because it's Christ who works. Not you. (Philippians 1:11).

Scripture says unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labour in vain.

Further more the scriptures says he removes our sins from us as far as the east is from the west. Scripture calls the mere believers "Saints, kings, priests, pastors, chosen, royal, heirs, children (Rom 1:7, 1 Peter 2:9, Revelation 1:6)" and more. Why? Because it's not our righteousness, but his which was gracefully bestowed upon us.

 

[Chopper]

1John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Here is a couple of thoughts concerning these verses. Lets look at V.7 If I were to look at this verse out of context, I would think that as long as I lived "walking in the light" the Blood of Jesus is able to keep me cleansed from "all" sin. Past sins and future sins.

Now, if I look at V.7 in the context with the other verses, it appears that we are going to sin, and we need to confess each sin, Jesus will forgive that sin.

Personally, I believe that there are sins that I commit in ignorance because there are standards that God expects me to obey that I either don't know about, or I don't know that they apply to me as a N.T. believer. Therefore V.7 applies to me because my sin is forgiven without my act of confessing.

All other sin that I'm aware of committing needs to be confessed and cleansed by the Blood of Jesus.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you will go back and read what I told you I typically say to God when I have blown it once again, you will read me both confessing and expressing my sorrow at hurting God (and/or men).

What you will not see is me insulting God by telling Him that I do not believe I am forgiven... and that I have to ask His son to go back to the cross for me, because I don't believe Jesus got it right the first time when He said "It is finished."
No, you do not, and will not, see me saying that... NOR that I believe I have to make a "forgiveness sacrifice" of repeatedly asking for forgiveness that I already have through Jesus' sacrifice. I have faith in what Jesus did.

You're not sending Jesus Christ back to the cross when you confess your sins as James and John say to do that. God does not allow a person to re-crucify Christ. Why would James and John teach something contrary to that truth? So we're forced to understand it in another way.

What you are doing when you confess repeated sin is making another appeal to the one and only sacrifice that has already been placed on the altar, and remains there, by your faith. Saved people need to go back to that one and only sacrifice to have the repeated unrighteousness of their deeds forgiven, not go back to Christ for another legal declaration of right standing with him (you already have that).

10 Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet..." (John 13:10 NASB)

The church is making a big mistake by saying that 'Christ finishing everything once and for all' means your deeds mean nothing now because they didn't mean anything in regard to you getting saved to begin with. We have an obligation to live and walk by the Spirit, and when we don't do that, we have the obligation to get back to the sacrifice that saved us for our walk--our feet--to be made clean. I don't see any Biblical basis for saying you don't have to do that--that it's already done--or that it can be done flippantly and with any less seriousness than when you got saved by that sacrifice. I see the Bible saying the exact opposite.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Personally, I believe that there are sins that I commit in ignorance because there are standards that God expects me to obey that I either don't know about, or I don't know that they apply to me as a N.T. believer. Therefore V.7 applies to me because my sin is forgiven without my act of confessing.

All other sin that I'm aware of committing needs to be confessed and cleansed by the Blood of Jesus.

I agree completely. There comes a day when a child is expected to stop crapping his pants. Until then, mom and dad hold their nose and clean it up and don't hold it against the child. Which is what I think Paul had in mind when he said this:

"And we will be ready to punish every act of disobedience, once your obedience is complete." (2 Corinthians 10:6 NIV)

I think it is completely un-Biblical to say you do not have to go back to God through Christ after you are born again because 'it's already done'. What's already done is the sacrifice has been made one time for all time. It doesn't have to be slain over and over. What isn't done is the cleansing that 'one time for all time' sacrifice is doing for us. The conviction of God keeps us going back to it for that cleansing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Oh, you are SO far from understanding His love... He does not ask us to grovel to "earn" His love.

I understand his love quite well. It is because I know he loves me that I continually go back to God for cleansing. It's not an attempt to get his love. It's actually a demonstration of the fact that I already know I am loved. Thus the courage in approaching him.

 

[ezra]

once again Conviction is part of our walk . i am familiar with what willie is saying .but i disagree on not being convicted of sin. the law points toward sin the Holy Spirit keeps us in check. paul wrote in Galatians to walk in the Spirit the word walk could be said as be aware of the presence of the Holy Spirit . some keys for our walk is waling in the spirit be transformed by the renewing of our mind. presenting our bodies a living sacrifice. take up OUR CROSS deny our self .strive to enter in at the straight gate. yield our self. all this is done by the power of the Holy Spirit. we are failures in our own strength but conquerors through Christ Romans 8:37 - Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. two words to focus on IN HIM....that will preach :amen

 

[JLB]

What does my signature say? All that is straight out of the Bible.

Your signature is different than what the scripture says -

The Bible very plainly states that I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

What the scripture actually says is different.

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:21


We are given the right or the power to become sons of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12

We are called to be conformed to the image of God's Son. Romans 8:29

We are called to be transformed by the renewing of our mind.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2

Transformed into the image of the Son of God.

All of this is a process.

A process of growing and maturing.

A process that involves God Himself teaching and correcting and reproving and chastening His children, and His children repenting and growing and overcoming.

This process of maturing involves the Spirit of God teaching and correcting [convicting] us as a Father teaches and corrects a child.

Convicting and repenting and maturing is a part of the Christian walk.

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; Ephesians 4:11-13


We are called to BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ.


The Lord bless you and keep as you mature in Him.


JLB

 

[JLB]

First of all the word "convict" is only used once in the N.T. it is found in John 8:9 "And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience." the word "convict" according to Strongs is replaced by these words,
ἐλέγχω
elegchō
el-eng'-kho
Of uncertain affinity; to confute, admonish: - convict, convince, tell a fault, rebuke, reprove.

I personally like James 5:19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins."

I just think that we need to be careful how we present our views so that new believers are not mis-informed.

Hi Chopper!

Do you believe that James is describing the same person in verse 19 as he is in verse 20?

In other words is the "him" in verse 19, also described as the "sinner" of verse 20?


Thanks JLB

 

[Deborah13]

(example) I did something wrong once... I gave a kid some pills I had (prescription, not street drug stuff). He got caught with them, and the school nurse talked to me. She explained that, while the pills weren't bad, this kid happened to be suicidal (I didn't know), and he was collecting anything he could get his hands on. She made me realize that I was in a better frame of mind than him, and that it was sort of my responsibility to watch out for him.

She COULD have berated me for the stupidity of what I did, (convicted me of a sinful act), but she didn't. She convinced me of the responsibility I had since I didn't have the emotional problems he was battling. As a result, I sort of became his guardian angel for the rest of the school year.

My wife has done this same thing with troublemakers in her classes. She convinces them of their leadership qualities, gives them responsibilities and encouragement instead of punishment, and very often turns them into model students.

Gen 4:9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
I believe this. Not only that we might be directly responsible for the harm of someone else, as Cain was, but that we have a responsibility to care for others any way that we can.

 

[Willie T]

Your signature is different than what the scripture says -

The Bible very plainly states that I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

What the scripture actually says is different.

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:21


We are given the right or the power to become sons of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12

We are called to be conformed to the image of God's Son. Romans 8:29

We are called to be transformed by the renewing of our mind.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2

Transformed into the image of the Son of God.

All of this is a process.

A process of growing and maturing.

A process that involves God Himself teaching and correcting and reproving and chastening His children, and His children repenting and growing and overcoming.

This process of maturing involves the Spirit of God teaching and correcting [convicting] us as a Father teaches and corrects a child.

Convicting and repenting and maturing is a part of the Christian walk.

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; Ephesians 4:11-13


We are called to BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ.


The Lord bless you and keep as you mature in Him.


JLB

Would you be so kind as to roll your mouse over the verse you quoted? That's 2 Corinthians 5:21 (Since you seem to want to address specific wording)

 

[ezra]

what happens when we have dead works? this subject imo has nothing to do with losing our salvation. but rather God does Chastise us he uses the holy spirit -conviction the spirit of trurh whom the Lord loves he chastises
Hebrews 12:6-11New King James Version (NKJV)
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paidthem respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed bestto them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. .same as the parable of the true vine. any branch that does not bear fruit he removes so other parts may produce.

 

[Brother Mike]

what happens when we have dead works? this subject imo has nothing to do with losing our salvation. but rather God does Chastise us he uses the holy spirit -conviction the spirit of trurh whom the Lord loves he chastises
Hebrews 12:6-11New King James Version (NKJV)
6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons.9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paidthem respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed bestto them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. .same as the parable of the true vine. any branch that does not bear fruit he removes so other parts may produce.

I said pages back I would most likely have to give the definition of Chastise again. Here we are.......... I even gave 3 scriptures examples of How God does this. Conviction is a flesh ruled feeling, a violation of ones own consciense.

I would explain again, but I don't think it does any good.

 

[Deborah13]

I see now that was your doctrine showing through in that other post. You apparently believe, along with so many in the church, that forgiveness is a one time event and that everything is done and said from that point onward--no matter what you do.

What I believe, Willie, is that you are to confess your sin when you commit it.

15 and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another..." (James 5:15-16 NASB)

If you have a hard time accepting that we are to confess our sins after we are saved, it may be because you believe, along with so many in the church, that doing that amounts to getting saved all over again (which it is not). Am I right?

Why did you only quote a portion of the scripture?
Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
Nothing there about confessing sin to God.
If someone has a fault that they are having trouble overcoming they should go to another believer/s, we are to pray fervently for them so that they will be healed.

 

[Deborah13]

Your signature is different than what the scripture says -

The Bible very plainly states that I am the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

What the scripture actually says is different.

For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
2 Corinthians 5:21


We are given the right or the power to become sons of God.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: John 1:12

We are called to be conformed to the image of God's Son. Romans 8:29

We are called to be transformed by the renewing of our mind.
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. Romans 12:2

Transformed into the image of the Son of God.

All of this is a process.

A process of growing and maturing.

A process that involves God Himself teaching and correcting and reproving and chastening His children, and His children repenting and growing and overcoming.

This process of maturing involves the Spirit of God teaching and correcting [convicting] us as a Father teaches and corrects a child.

Convicting and repenting and maturing is a part of the Christian walk.

11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; Ephesians 4:11-13


We are called to BECOME the righteousness of God in Christ.


The Lord bless you and keep as you mature in Him.


JLB

So you don't believe that you have been justified by Christ's sacrifice for you?

We are not called to become the righteousness of God, that is who Jesus is. Unless you think that somehow in your physical life time you can be perfectly righteous as He is. Good luck with that.

 

[Chopper]

As I said in the beginning, I think we'll all learn the most from this entry in Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words:

Strong's Number:g1651

Convict (Including the Av, Convince):

signifies
(a) "to convict, confute, refute," usually with the suggestion of putting the convicted person to shame; see Mat 18:15, where more than telling the offender his fault is in view; it is used of "convicting" of sin, Jhn 8:46; 16:8; gainsayers in regard to the faith, Tts 1:9; transgressors of the Law, Jam 2:9; some texts have the verb in Jhn 8:9...​

We're playing the world's game when we try to take the sting out of being convicted of wrong-doing. We should be convicted when we do wrong. I would never tell an adulterer, for example, not to be convicted of his sin. I would not dumb it down in any way shape or form. That doesn't mean you can't be compassionate and understanding to him about their failure, but that is what seems to be the problem here—that somehow conviction of sin can only be contrary and opposed to being loving and compassionate.

We don't make conviction go away by redefining conviction in an attempt to take the sting out of it. We make it go away by asking God to forgive us and cleanse us of the unrighteousness of our wrong-doing. Where, why, and how did the church lose touch with this basic truth of Christianity?

I must say Jethro, you hit a home run with that post.

 

[Willie T]

Uh oh!

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think I see someone's doctrine showing through.

You sure do! I emphatically do not believe we have to renew and authenticate our forgiveness by groveling each time we foul up. We should, instead, believe what God says, and trust in Jesus. A simple awareness of and sorrow for hurting Him is all He asks.

 

[ezra]

I said pages back I would most likely have to give the definition of Chastise again. Here we are.......... I even gave 3 scriptures examples of How God does this. Conviction is a flesh ruled feeling, a violation of ones own consciense.

I would explain again, but I don't think it does any good.

and not sure as to what your saying { Conviction is a flesh ruled feeling,} so the spirit has nothing to do with conviction ?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

and not sure as to what your saying { Conviction is a flesh ruled feeling,} so the spirit has nothing to do with conviction ?

That's what I got out of it.

 

[ezra]

That's what I got out of it.

thats nice to know not so sure as they got this.