God's Command against the Belief in Freedom of Religion

[Who Says]

Are you up on the Bible Belt sun. closing laws? Or the real culprits, the Lord's Day Alliance made up of all the Rev. 17:1-5 ones?

Or the prison system + military [Caesar force] of ministors, chaplains or pastors being banned unless they COMPLY to their [NO SECULAR RELIGOUS TEACHING] Restrictions?
Acts 5:27-29 has already found USA Church's & Caesar above God, as this is allowed to stand! But what is New? (Eccl. 3:15)

But [very 'remnant' few] (read Acts 5:29 again!) are in this bottom/line and [MOST] by far are not wanting to be powerless! And Surely these ones do need Caesar to enforce 666.

---Elijah

PS: These ones..

Originally Posted by John Stefanyszyn
God's Command against the Belief in Freedom of Religion
It is incredible how Christian churches support the belief in freedom of rights and religion.

I am again shocked to see another statement you have made that I agree almost with but for the conclusion you bring it to.

Perhaps there are things I do not know about poor John? But I see John as saying that the decision as to what we worship does not belong to any flesh; and especially it does not belong to those that push the number 666.

In other words: God is merely tolerating such disobedience for now. He is in no way sanctioning it and will very soon now do away with it.

 

[Who Says]

I actually agree with quite a bit of this. Not the part about Satan being one of the "Us", nor about the speculation that Eve might have thought it was "worth it" as Paul tells us clearly that Eve was deceived...but I think the first paragraph is spot on.

The thing is, the Church needs to follow Christ's lead in the matter, after all He is the head. And basically, Christ has never, from the Garden onward, done more than give the commandment and explain the consequences of both obedience and disobedience. In the Garden, the command was "Don't eat from that Tree, if you do you will die." However, He left Adam to then instruct Eve and live out the commandment, or break it. Adam chose to break it.

Did Adam have "freedom of religion"...no, because in the end, he had to submit to God's decree and face the consequence of his disobedience. The same with everyone else. With very few exceptions, we do not see God forcing people to do His will.

But, it's a mistake to then think that we have true "freedom of religion". True freedom of religion means that we can take it or leave it and not face any consequences of "leaving it".

Now, I realize that many have taken the OP's mention of "freedom of religion" in a civil, earthly government way...but I don't take it that way. However, John might want to clarify if this was what he was getting at.

Yes. :yes

Very simply explained. Very reasonable. Very reliable. :yes

 

[Elijah674]

I actually agree with quite a bit of this. Not the part about Satan being one of the "Us", nor about the speculation that Eve might have thought it was "worth it" as Paul tells us clearly that Eve was deceived...but I think the first paragraph is spot on.

The thing is, the Church needs to follow Christ's lead in the matter, after all He is the head. And basically, Christ has never, from the Garden onward, done more than give the commandment and explain the consequences of both obedience and disobedience. In the Garden, the command was "Don't eat from that Tree, if you do you will die." However, He left Adam to then instruct Eve and live out the commandment, or break it. Adam chose to break it.

Did Adam have "freedom of religion"...no, because in the end, he had to submit to God's decree and face the consequence of his disobedience. The same with everyone else. With very few exceptions, we do not see God forcing people to do His will.

But, it's a mistake to then think that we have true "freedom of religion". True freedom of religion means that we can take it or leave it and not face any consequences of "leaving it".

Now, I realize that many have taken the OP's mention of "freedom of religion" in a civil, earthly government way...but I don't take it that way. However, John might want to clarify if this was what he was getting at.

Hi,
In the O.T. Christ GOD, was on earth as God. And He was His own theocracy. (government) And in the N.T. He did indeed give Caesar as in Rom. 13, power over the second table of the law. (ones duty to mankind) At No time could old Israel execute without the OK from Caesar. Christ was the example.
And He (Christ) did establish clearly the seperation of Church from Caesar and Ceasar from Church. Luke 20:24-25 Matt. 22:21, Mark 12:16-17 And we might add that that is the reason that we have been so blessed in the USA because we have followed the blueprint fairly well. But it will not last, huh? (Rev. 13:11 & 666)

And the Church that Christ did indeed establish, were given by Him the keys to the kingdon in heaven while it was on earth. Matt. 18:17-18 finds this true on condition of their OBEDIENCE! (Rev. 2:5) First it is the OBEDIENT Church, and Second it still can never execute, but removeing a defiant sinner is applying the spiritual second death in the End time setting unless one repented. (as was the case in 1 Cor. 5:5, even see 1 Tim. 1:19-20)

One find's Christ sending Saul (Paul) to the Church when he asked Christ what MUST I DO? Acts 9:6 + verse 18. Had you ever wondered why Christ Himself did not heal Paul of his blindness?? He left that up to the Church that He had established before His departure!

And also it is thirdly seen, that it is the Obedient CHURCH that makes the Judgement of baptismal canadates or removal of such that are to be removed from church membership for proper bibical reasons. (Josh. 7)

And Adam did not have freedom to choose evil you say?? Personally, 'i' believe that he walked into the sin of disobedience with his eyes fully & presumptously open!

---Elijah

 

[Who Says]

Hi,
In the O.T. Christ GOD, was on earth as God. And He was His own theocracy. (government) And in the N.T. He did indeed give Caesar as in Rom. 13, power over the second table of the law. (ones duty to mankind) At No time could old Israel execute without the OK from Caesar. Christ was the example.
And He (Christ) did establish clearly the seperation of Church from Caesar and Ceasar from Church. Luke 20:24-25 Matt. 22:21, Mark 12:16-17 And we might add that that is the reason that we have been so blessed in the USA because we have followed the blueprint fairly well. But it will not last, huh? (Rev. 13:11 & 666)

And the Church that Christ did indeed establish, were given by Him the keys to the kingdon in heaven while it was on earth. Matt. 18:17-18 finds this true on condition of their OBEDIENCE! (Rev. 2:5) First it is the OBEDIENT Church, and Second it still can never execute, but removeing a defiant sinner is applying the spiritual second death in the End time setting unless one repented. (as was the case in 1 Cor. 5:5, even see 1 Tim. 1:19-20)

One find's Christ sending Saul (Paul) to the Church when he asked Christ what MUST I DO? Acts 9:6 + verse 18. Had you ever wondered why Christ Himself did not heal Paul of his blindness?? He left that up to the Church that He had established before His departure!

And also it is thirdly seen, that it is the Obedient CHURCH that makes the Judgement of baptismal canadates or removal of such that are to be removed from church membership for proper bibical reasons. (Josh. 7)

And Adam did not have freedom to choose evil you say?? Personally, 'i' believe that he walked into the sin of disobedience with his eyes fully & presumptously open!

---Elijah

That is just another case of "You say tomata but I say tomato".

We speak in terms of where real right and freedom is born so that it does not get abused, which is in the moral responsibility arena and says No to saying No to God. And we see that as the only true freedom.

We see the freedom you speak about as an illusion of freedom which cannot possibly be a real freedom because it is not born of the only core that can produce true freedom, which is moral responsibility to God.

Your freedom vanishes like a water vapor but the freedom we speak of is everlasting by God.

 

[Elijah674]

That is just another case of "You say tomata but I say tomato".

We speak in terms of where real right and freedom is born so that it does not get abused, which is in the moral responsibility arena and says No to saying No to God. And we see that as the only true freedom.

We see the freedom you speak about as an illusion of freedom which cannot possibly be a real freedom because it is not born of the only core that can produce true freedom, which is moral responsibility to God.

Your freedom vanishes like a water vapor but the freedom we speak of is everlasting by God.

Have it your way.
OK, mods?? He can have his own [freedom/less] (?) say, about CHrist being only a 'g'od (which he did post up) as your sites standards do not agree with.

--Elijah

 

[Alabaster]

Thank you for letting me know that. If it be true what you say it could be very important for me to know. :yes Let my response please demonstrate how constructive criticism ought to maturely be received. :yes


You told John:


You see Alabaster the only problem I have with what you say is that the very premise expects me to believe that there is so little difference between God and Satan that Satan could even begin to think that such could be possible.

And I am sorry Alabaster, that just does not fly for me. God is so tremendously greater than Satan it is rediculous to think it could be as you say. It has to be as John Stefanyszyn has said.

Did I say that Satan and God were similar? You must have a problem with reading comprehension.

Satan is so puffed up with pride that he thinks he can take God on! Can you grasp that?

I too use the the expression saying that Satan sought to "usurp God". But I use it incrementally to mean that Satan believes that he need not listen to God in all things as he thinks he has his own sufficient understanding of good and evil.

That's a little wimpy compared to what Satan really wanted.

That is how we play God. That is how the body of us that is the one man Adam stands up in the flesh in the midst of the temple of God (in its earthly courtyard of the Gentiles rather than the sanctuary and the courtyard of the Jews) publicly showing himself that he is God. It is purely preaching that we have a God given free-will to choose for ourselves between good and bad that constitutes this.

Whatever. Speak for yourself.

 

[Alabaster]

Sin first occurred in the Garden of Eden. Sin did not first occur in heaven. Satan did not become Satan until there in the Garden of Eden he first “opposed†God. He there made himself the devil in that he “slandered†God.

It is pure conjecture to say that God had seen Satan would become Satan long before he even decided to create man. And I have been guilty of saying that in the past, having picked up the infection from listening to others.

So then I am faced with having to toss that idea out as contaminated of human wisdom and quite possibly being an adding to God’s words which if not true would form part of a faulty foundation to confuse God’s word.

For if God’s word is truly complete it does not need such speculations added to it, does it?

Can anyone show me any solid evidence from the Bible that God did foreknow that Satan would become Satan?

As Satan was already in Eden, you can be sure he was already cast out of heaven for his rebellion long before.

 

[Who Says]

Have it your way.
OK, mods?? He can have his own [freedom/less] (?) say, about CHrist being only a 'g'od (which he did post up) as your sites standards do not agree with.

--Elijah

Actually Elijah, I say if you want to believe Jesus is God then i have no problem with it. And I say that if others want to believe Jesus is distinctly the Son of God who is the perfect image and likeness of his Father I have no problem with that.

You seem to totally miss that all I have really ever supported is making sure we see Christ's holiness as that we must put on in imitation of him. That is how we are conformed image to image to him. And that is what is absolutely necessary.

Once in a while I let my preference of view be known only so that you see that I too have a view to suppress in favor of letting love have its way and allowing God to mature the knowledge of others as he sees fit.

There are certain crucial understandings that will cost us our salvation if we do not have them and many that will not. The ones that will cost us our salvation have to do with immulating Christ's holy love. That is our main concern right now. God is more than willing to give us time to learn the rest. It is only we imperfect humans who disallow others that time.

Perhaps I should explain that I do not believe we all rule as kings and priests with Christ. That is the elect specially chosen few of us. But the rest of are bound for God's kingdom as subjects of that kingdom if we too take the holiness exhibited to us in Christ seriously enought to begin growing in it.

Because the finally of the matter is that nothing that causes stumbling will be allowed into that kingdom, not as a servant of its people in government nor as a subject.

 

[Eventide]

Why do you call me good ?

If Christ is not God.. then how can we call Him good ?

Do those who deny that He is God manifest in the flesh think that He is good ?

Why would the Apostles worship Him.. why do we worship Him if He is not God ?

 

[Who Says]

Re: Why do you call me good ?

If Christ is not God.. then how can we call Him good ?

Do those who deny that He is God manifest in the flesh think that He is good ?

Why would the Apostles worship Him.. why do we worship Him if He is not God ?

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

And so I speak and answer Jesus, 'Yes master, I understand now. I see the Father through you and give him the glory through you.'

'My Lord after king David and my God in you and through you as you sit on His throne.' John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

 

[Sam21]

Actually Elijah, I say if you want to believe Jesus is God then i have no problem with it. And I say that if others want to believe Jesus is distinctly the Son of God who is the perfect image and likeness of his Father I have no problem with that.

You seem to totally miss that all I have really ever supported is making sure we see Christ's holiness as that we must put on in imitation of him. That is how we are conformed image to image to him. And that is what is absolutely necessary.

Once in a while I let my preference of view be known only so that you see that I too have a view to suppress in favor of letting love have its way and allowing God to mature the knowledge of others as he sees fit.

There are certain crucial understandings that will cost us our salvation if we do not have them and many that will not. The ones that will cost us our salvation have to do with immulating Christ's holy love. That is our main concern right now. God is more than willing to give us time to learn the rest. It is only we imperfect humans who disallow others that time.

Perhaps I should explain that I do not believe we all rule as kings and priests with Christ. That is the elect specially chosen few of us. But the rest of are bound for God's kingdom as subjects of that kingdom if we too take the holiness exhibited to us in Christ seriously enought to begin growing in it.

Because the finally of the matter is that nothing that causes stumbling will be allowed into that kingdom, not as a servant of its people in government nor as a subject.

" Take the holiness exhibited to us in Christ", in a practical way, what are you really saying?

 

[Who Says]

" Take the holiness exhibited to us in Christ", in a practical way, what are you really saying?

(1 Peter 2:11-25)

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Galatians 5:12 I would they (among you) were even cut off which trouble you.
13 ¶For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Men have divided the church through their evil bickering over doctrines in violation of love. 1 Corinthians 1:11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

 

[Eventide]

Re: Why do you call me good ?

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

John 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

And so I speak and answer Jesus, 'Yes master, I understand now. I see the Father through you and give him the glory through you.'

'My Lord after king David and my God in you and through you as you sit on His throne.' John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

That's what I am getting at..

Do you think that Jesus is GOOD.. ?

If so, how could that be if He is not God.. because He says that only God IS good..

So that's the question, is Jesus good.. and if so, then why is He good ? If not, then why not ?

 

[Who Says]

Re: Why do you call me good ?

That's what I am getting at..

Do you think that Jesus is GOOD.. ?

If so, how could that be if He is not God.. because He says that only God IS good..

So that's the question, is Jesus good.. and if so, then why is He good ? If not, then why not ?

He is good because: John 8:28 "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

Thus it is that Jesus bear his Father's goodness but gives all credit for it to his Father.

And as such he is the perfect image of God in this manner and we can and must be conformed to him: 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (in our sin as that one sinned), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (in his righteousnes as that one is righteous)

That is what produces life, for the Father will bless righteousness (holiness) with life, all of this through Jesus.

 

[Eventide]

Re: Why do you call me good ?

He is good because: John 8:28 "Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things."

Thus it is that Jesus bear his Father's goodness but gives all credit for it to his Father.

And as such he is the perfect image of God in this manner and we can and must be conformed to him: 2 Corinthians 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy (in our sin as that one sinned), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (in his righteousnes as that one is righteous)

I must agree completely.. and if I agree that Jesus is good, then He must be God.. or now it becomes God is good AND Jesus is good.. simple logic isn't it..?

 

[Who Says]

Re: Why do you call me good ?

I must agree completely.. and if I agree that Jesus is good, then He must be God.. or now it becomes God is good AND Jesus is good.. simple logic isn't it..?

That is why I say it is OK for others to believe Jesus is God. Some know how to do it in a balanced way that does not prevent what we need to see in Jesus that we can conform to. Additionally some know how to see Jesus as the superlative image of God and see the proper things about Jesus we must conform ourselves to.

And on both sides of the fence there are those who do not. That tells me the problem is not what we believe but how we believe.

Knowledge can help us or knowledge can hurt us all dependend upon whether or not it is governed by God's love in us.