GODS ten commandments

[ChristineES]

I think you guys are too uptight. Loosen up a bit and enjoy God. :-?

 

[Imagican]

Christine,

You have obviously read the OT. Now, I ask you, WHICH day IS the Sabbath? And, do YOU personally obey ALL the 'law' of the Sabbath?

I am quite certain that I already answered that question. Saturday is the Sabbath. I go to Church on Sunday because that is when the services are,but Sunday is not actually Sabbath. I worship God every day.
If it is possible the Sabbath is Saturday. Sabbath in the bible is defined as a day of rest, after 6 days of labor. If a person must work on Saturday because he or she has to, I believe (although this a personal belief not from the Bible) that they can have their personal day of rest on another day. But if one does NOT have to work on Saturday, then he/she should have their Sabbath on Saturday. I hope that clarifies what I am trying to say.

You show by your understanding above that you too are 'free'. You just haven't realized the ENTIRE extent of 'your freedom'. Do not dismay for there is additional learning with time and study. That you realize that you are 'free' to choose which day you 'set aside' proves that you are aware of your freedom. Accept the totality of this freedom and you will be 'free indeed'. The churches would have you bound just as the religious order of Christ's time had the people 'bound'. Follow the Spirit rather than the teachings of men and there you will find this freedom to which I refer.

I know, Christine, that each of us 'seems' to think that we have it ALL figured out. I am no differnt in my offerings. But, let me add this, ALL that I offer is NOT my own but that given through the Word and Spirit of our Creator. I rarely offer scripture to my posts. I assume that anyone that chooses to debate issues of scripture on a Christian website have already read the Word. Anytime you doubt what I offer being scriptural, just ask and I will offer the references that one desires.

Let go of that which man would offer for you to follow 'them' and simply trust in Christ and the Father. Otherwise there 'will be NO freedom' to worship as God wills, but only the worship for those that would have you follow them rather than Christ to the Father.

If you truly desire a relationship with God through His Son, one day you will know what I offer as I KNOW it. Reading, fasting and prayer are the KEY to your relationship REGARDLESS of the teachings of 'men'. Use it to your advantage and watch the relationship grow and changes take place in your live.

I direct this at you but offer it to ALL who may read these words. Revel in the freedom for THAT is what it was offered for. Revel in sin for the sake of freedom? ABSOLUTELY NOT. Revel in the freedom so that you may one day be as free from sin as possible. The only way this is possible is to get closer to God. NO, not through an obligatory observance of 'the law', but in a loving relationship to the Father through His Son. LET THEM make the changes, for those made by us are without effect.

 

[ChristineES]

I would be liar if I said I knew everything and understood everything and I was always right. Keep in mind that the same could be said about every person who lives on Earth. :-D
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but you are like Pharisees in the NT. A good follower of God, upright, but so strict with the rules that you forget who made these rules. These are the same Pharisees who told Jesus that he was a glutton and a drunkard and said the John the Baptist had a demon. I worship God, only God. Worry less about everything being "just so" and think more about God. God is the One who is important.
You put things into what I have written that I did not mean or write. I don't change the rules around to suit my own purpose, as you seem to think. I worship God every day, all day. I tell Him everything in my life. My life is insignificant, I am not important. I am bound by God's law. I know no more than you know. Everything I believe in came from the Bible, not from man. I know you did not mean what it implied in this statement But, let me add this

, ALL that I offer is NOT my own but that given through the Word and Spirit of our Creator.

that nothing I offer is from God. Every thing I offer is also from God and His Word. I repeat that I still don't have all the answers. I have read the Bible many times in the past 23 years and I still find something new each time!
Jesus gave us two commandments that were greater than the others
Love God with all you heart, your soul, your strenghth, and you spirit.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Both of those can be found in Leviticus. In other words, The Torah!
I don't think we are bound by the Law because Jesus fulfilled by His sacrifice and ressurection, but we still can not sin. If we do sin, we must repent and ask God for forgiveness each time we sin.

 

[SputnikBoy]

But surely you wouldn't call someone pharisaical for TRYING to uphold the standards of the Ten Commandments, would you Christine? I mean, which of those commandments do you go out of your way to break?

And, the first 4 that apply to God combine to fulfilling the 'loving God with all your heart, mind and soul' command. Similarly commands 5-10 combine to fulfilling 'loving yur neighbor as yourself.' To fulfill ANY command requires something mentally AND physically of us.

Words without actions is the result of faith without works. Those who keep the 7th-day Sabbath (is there another?) are at least putting into action their belief in obedience to the 4th-commandment. That is NOT being a Pharisee.

 

[Imagican]

I would still offer that the 'written law' has been fulfilled through Christ. Man is incapable of living by it. Christ pointed out to even think of doing that which is 'against the written law' one has ALREADY committed this offense in their 'hearts'. If this is the case, then it is IMPOSSIBLE to live in total obedience to the 'written law'. Try as one may, they will STILL fall short.

That's where Christ comes in. Through the Son, we NOW have forgiveness and freedom. Freedom FROM the law. For the 'law' stated that to disobey it called for DEATH!!!! The written law could be followed through obligation. Now we are to follow Christ through LOVE, NOT obligation. That is what the Jews were MEANT to learn from the 'written law'; HOW TO LOVE.

We CANNOT follow Christ through our OWN WILL. We MUST allow the Spirit to guide us and NO amount of effort to follow the 'written law' will bring about the perfection that many would lead others to believe is possible.

Let me offer this to those that may not be aware of the tools that Satan uses against us. One of his biggest and most potent is his ability to lead us to believe that we are incapable of living by 'The Law' and therefore allowing us to 'turn away' from the Father. David was considered to be a 'man after God's OWN HEART'. Anyone know WHY? Because no matter how far he fell, he ALWAYS returned to the Father asking for forgiveness. That's the key to use to defend oneself against this tool of Satan. NEVER and I mean NEVER allow him to convince you that your inability to 'follow the Law' is able to 'take away' the gift that has been offered. And NEVER forget that he will use 'others', your friends and neighbors, and EVEN the churches themselves if they allow it, to convince you that you are unworthy through your inability to 'follow the law'. Don't let it happen folks. Our God is a God of LOVE, NOT HATE. He is there offering forgiveness to those that Love Him in return. Let HIM. Don't let ANYONE convince you that He EXPECTS PERFECTION, for if that was the case, WE WOULD ALL BE DOOMED.

 

[ChristineES]

I am beginning to think that no one really pays attention to what others say. I think the 10 commandments are still in effect, and I never said otherwise. I am not sure where you got that I didn't. The Ten Commandments are separate from The Law. A true Christian would not delibrately go out and break them. There are nine other commandments other than the sabbath day.
This whole thing started when I said the only reason that some people want to do away with the Ten Commandments is so they can do whatever they want on Sabbath or at least that is what it seems to me, that is one they always bring up as to why they are not to be followed anymore. The other nine are much easier to follow, (at least I hope they are). I don't think it is hard at all to have a day where we don't work, but it seems that most of you do. I know this because of comments on various boards. No one ever talks about honoring your parents, not bearing false witness, coveting, or committing adultery, and whatever when talking of the ten commandments. The other one that seems to get a lot of discussion is idolatry.

Maybe someone can tell me which of the Ten commandments they broke today. Did you worship another God, say God's name is vain, worship idols, break the Sabbath, dishonored your parents, kill someone, commit adultery, steal something, bear false witness, covet something? It would seem coveting and swearing are the most broken commandments.
While it is true that people have a hard time following them, and we all break one now and then, this does not mean we should not try. Of course we will be forgiven if we slip, but it is better to slip than to break laws delibrately without caring about it.

 

[Novum]

Maybe someone can tell me which of the Ten commandments they broke today.

Ooh, fun. Ok, let's do it!

Did you worship another God,

None at all. Atheist.

say God's name is vain,

Every now and then, sure. It's a fairly popular phrase.

worship idols,

Nope. Atheist.

break the Sabbath,

I have difficulty thinking of a weekend where I didn't do something that could be considered "work".

dishonored your parents,

Every now and then, sure.

kill someone,

Never.

commit adultery,

Never.

steal something,

A few times in my life, sure.

bear false witness,

Every now and then, yes.

covet something?

Sure.

It would seem coveting and swearing are the most broken commandments.
While it is true that people have a hard time following them, and we all break one now and then, this does not mean we should not try. Of course we will be forgiven if we slip, but it is better to slip than to break laws delibrately without caring about it.

Fair enough. But I personally have difficulty believing that an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good god would spend time worrying about whether or not his own creation is spending its time swearing instead of using his divine power to do something about, say, the millions and millions of children in Africa suffering from starvation.

Anyway, looks like I scored at least six broken commandments. Who's next?

 

[SputnikBoy]

:D

I probably shouldn't encourage you with a smiley face, Novum, but you're a worthy and an interesting poster. I may not agree with you 'Jesus-wise' but I believe we're on the same page on other relative issues.

 

[Imagican]

Nov,

Let us go back and study your answers about the commandments from a slightly 'different' perspective. You've been very honest so far, let's see just 'how' honest you can be............

Now, instead of asking have you EVER killed anyone, let me ask if you've ever stated that you wanted to or were going to or ever simply thought, 'boy, I want to kill that person'?

Have you ever thought about rape, suicided, stealing, adultery, fornication, are you a liar?

Secondly, let me ask you exactly 'what' do you 'think' worship is?

Looking forward to your replies.

MEC

 

[Georges]

Of course the Mosaic "Guideline to Righteous Living" is still a legitimate way to live....

I can't believe that there are that many misguided individuals who buy into the false teaching that the "Guide" was created to show us that we sin....WRONG answer.......it is a "Guide" to show us how to properly live.

Never intended to be a burden...that was man's own doing by by adding the extras.

Of course, no one can keep the Law 100% of the time, Jehovah knows that. That's why Jehovah provided a means to make right the wrong committed in that very same law.

Once people get over the "Law was made to show our sins" misconception of Pauline propaganda, then they can realize they are free to live righteously (as best they can) by obeying God's own un-negated Law.

 

[ChristineES]

Thanks for the laugh, Novum. :-D You are probably the first person on this board who understood my humor. That is almost sad, an atheist is the only one on this board who understands my humor. :wink: There is either hope for you or for me. : :

 

[Novum]

I probably shouldn't encourage you with a smiley face, Novum, but you're a worthy and an interesting poster. I may not agree with you 'Jesus-wise' but I believe we're on the same page on other relative issues.

:D

Thanks for the laugh, Novum. :-D You are probably the first person on this board who understood my humor. That is almost sad, an atheist is the only one on this board who understands my humor. :wink: There is either hope for you or for me. : :

Or both of us. ;)

Nov,

Let us go back and study your answers about the commandments from a slightly 'different' perspective. You've been very honest so far, let's see just 'how' honest you can be............

Now, instead of asking have you EVER killed anyone, let me ask if you've ever stated that you wanted to or were going to or ever simply thought, 'boy, I want to kill that person'?

Have you ever thought about rape, suicided, stealing, adultery, fornication, are you a liar?

Yes, most likely, to all of the above. But, heck, why stop there?

Let's include video games. In terms of killing, then, I probably rank right up there with Mao Zedong and Stalin. In terms of stealing and lying, I'm probably a world leader as well. And it's not just me, because hundreds of millions of other video gamers have just suddenly become mass murderers!

Let's include books, both reading and writing them. Silly Shakespeare; we thought he was a poet and an author, but in reality he was a murderer because he wrote about the deaths of such fine characters as Rosencrantz, Guildenstern, and, heck, Hamlet himself!

Let's include movies, both producing and watching them. Just about everyone in America is suddenly worthy of the death penalty, thousands of times over! How many more prisons do you think we'll need to build to hold everyone?

Do you see how ridiculous the world becomes when you try to become the Thought Police, Imagican? That is but one reason why the novel "1984", by George Orwell, was such a classic - and scary - piece of literature: it describes in detail the Thought Police you seem to be itching to join.

And I find myself wondering why your god, an omnipotent, omniscience guy, is worrying so darn much about the inner thoughts of his creation instead of attending to any of a myriad of much more pressing problems. What use have we for a cosmic Thought Policeman?

Secondly, let me ask you exactly 'what' do you 'think' worship is?

Hmm. Perhaps showing devotion and loyalty to a higher being?

...no, that can't be it, because millions of people also worship idols and other objects. How about showing devotion and loyalty to anything at all?

...no, that can't be it, because "worshipping the porcelain god" is a popular phrase that means "vomiting", and I know that I'm not particularly devoted or loyal to the toilet when I'm doing so.

I don't know then. Worship seems to be yet another intensely personal, subjective experience (kind of like love, hate, envy, and such - let's add "worship" to the list) that would net us a thousand different definitions if we were to ask a thousand different people.

 

[Imagican]

Nov,

Once again, I admire your honesty. I am NOT the thought police and have no intentions of 'judging' the answers that you gave. I would rather speak with someone who is honest than a hundred that are such that would rather 'pretend'.

Firstly, your answers concerning sin are exactly what I was hoping you would offer. So you DO see what could be considered 'righteous' behavior and that which is simply to offer pleasure to 'self'. Good. That's a start. Now, what would be wrong with individuals 'striving' to do that which is 'righteous' rather than that which is simply 'self fulfilling'?

Now, worship, you pretty much hit that 'nail on the head' also. Worship is nothing more than the devotion that we offer to that which we adore. What we adore is what we LOVE. So, with these things in mind, it becomes pretty easy to sum up the definition of 'worship' as what we offer those things that we Love. Time, money, sacrifice of others, etc........... The signs of our worship are those things which we strive to devote ourselves to. It could be Nascar, Football, a Car, a Christmas Tree, etc,,,,,etc,,,,,,,,,, AnYTHING really.
You seem to have a pretty good grasp of this concept as well.

Nov, you make me wonder.................. You obviously understand quite a bit about the subject of Christianity. What I wonder is the 'why'? Why you would be compelled to debate such an issue that you say you 'don't believe in'. To understand as much as you appear to would indicate that you really do KNOW that God exists and that Christ was/is His Son. Let it go Bro.

I was once pretty much the 'same' as you. i would debate the fictitiousness of religion with anyone that would listen to me. For every question I had an answer. Religion was for weak minded people that couldn't 'figure things out' on their own. They needed a 'crutch' and found it in the Bible and church. i was changed. Altered in a way that allowed NO turning back.

The reason that it took so long was sheer FEAR. I was afraid that if I accepted the Bible and the Word it contained I would have to completely change my lifestyle. I would have to 'give up' much of what I enjoyed and simply sacrifice too much.

I was SO wrong that I look back now and regret MOST of the life that I led previous to accepting Christ into my heart. Sooo much wasted time. So much time spent filled with hate and sorrow. See, I had a conscience even when living for myself, so there was much guilt surrounding my actions.

Most of this is gone now. I have come to the realization that what I was designed to live for is LOVE. And as I learn to exhibit this, my life begins to take on a completely 'different' demeanor. Where there was MUCH sorrow, there is now much joy, where there was much strife, much more peace, where there was hate, now there is an understanding of the needs of my fellow man and much pleasure and satisfaction in making an effort to think about them instead of ONLY myself.

Know 'how' it changed? I simply asked God to HELP me. Help me be what HE wanted me to be. Didn't happen overnight. I am still a 'work in progress' and will be to the day I die. But as I have grown in strength, I have also grown in love and understanding. So much more so than in the past, (when I 'thought' I KNEW everything), that I look back and only see utter 'foolishness' where I thought I was 'cool' and 'smarter' than everyone else, I was NOTHING but an utter fool. So caught up in myself that I couldn't begin to think of others and their worlds.

Stick around, my friend, there IS much to learn here. There are some that have a relatively firm grasp of the nature of God and His Son. Kind of like music. You hear enough of the 'same song' it doesn't really matter how good or bad it is, eventually it WILL become a 'part of your life'.

 

[Novum]

Nov,

Once again, I admire your honesty. I am NOT the thought police and have no intentions of 'judging' the answers that you gave. I would rather speak with someone who is honest than a hundred that are such that would rather 'pretend'.

Fair enough.

Firstly, your answers concerning sin are exactly what I was hoping you would offer. So you DO see what could be considered 'righteous' behavior and that which is simply to offer pleasure to 'self'. Good. That's a start. Now, what would be wrong with individuals 'striving' to do that which is 'righteous' rather than that which is simply 'self fulfilling'?

Because it is impossible to define what constitutes "righteous" behavior. Start a thread on the subject, you'll quickly see what I mean.

It is not necessarily true, as you state, that righteous behavior must not be self-fulfilling. We can look to various ethical theories to help us determine what our morality should resemble, but we cannot define words like "good", "evil", and "righteous" for all mankind.

Now, worship, you pretty much hit that 'nail on the head' also. Worship is nothing more than the devotion that we offer to that which we adore. What we adore is what we LOVE. So, with these things in mind, it becomes pretty easy to sum up the definition of 'worship' as what we offer those things that we Love. Time, money, sacrifice of others, etc........... The signs of our worship are those things which we strive to devote ourselves to. It could be Nascar, Football, a Car, a Christmas Tree, etc,,,,,etc,,,,,,,,,, AnYTHING really.
You seem to have a pretty good grasp of this concept as well.

The word worship has very distinctive religious connotations which are simply not appropriate in all circumstances - when speaking of an atheist, for example. Honestly, I'm not so sure I can think of anything in my life that I worship - even my love for my parents doesn't seem to me to be accurately described by the word "worship". My love for philosophy, or ethics, or technology as well. I would not use the word "worship" for any of these.

Nov, you make me wonder.................. You obviously understand quite a bit about the subject of Christianity. What I wonder is the 'why'? Why you would be compelled to debate such an issue that you say you 'don't believe in'. To understand as much as you appear to would indicate that you really do KNOW that God exists and that Christ was/is His Son. Let it go Bro.

Why do people talk about cars, or their favorite ice cream flavor, or the best way to drive from New York City to Boston? The simplest answer is because these topics interest them and, therefore, people derive enjoyment and happiness from discussing them.

It's the same with people like me, who derive enjoyment and happiness from discussing philosophy and religion. I think you're somewhat misunderstanding me: my interest in christianity is only one manifestation of my interest in religion as a whole; I only discuss christianity more because it directly impacts me more, as I live in a christian nation (the US). I would just as soon talk about Buddhism, Islam, or Hinduism. All interest me, just as cars interest mechanics.

It's not that I personally attach any element of "truth" to Christianity (or any other religion), it's just that I enjoy discussion about them.

I was once pretty much the 'same' as you.

Careful now. I'm fairly sure that we have never met, and I would be more careful than to assume my experience as an atheist is anything like yours was. ;)

i would debate the fictitiousness of religion with anyone that would listen to me. For every question I had an answer.

I have a job and I'm a full-time student; I only post on these forums in my spare time, which is not at all "debating" with "anyone that would listen to me". This is a hobby, nothing more. I have no agenda, nor do I have a vendetta against religion.

Religion was for weak minded people that couldn't 'figure things out' on their own. They needed a 'crutch' and found it in the Bible and church.

This is alarming to me for two reasons:

1) It has been my personal experience with atheism that most atheists do not hold these two beliefs; just the opposite in fact.
2) You seem to be assuming that I hold either or both of these beliefs. That is most assuredly not the case.

I, and many atheists, DO NOT CARE IF YOU BELIEVE IN GOD. There, bold and capitals to make it stand out. If you want to believe in the christian god, that's quite fine with me.

I don't care if you believe in god, if you think your sink is powered by your telekinetic energy, if you think you can find water using a dowsing rod, or if you think you never need to wash your clothes. The only issue I have is if you try to force your beliefs on myself or others. When that happens, I will (justifiably, I think) take offense. That's why many atheists work so hard to ensure the true separation of church and state - because, for example, if an atheist's tax dollars are used to finance a religious organization, the state is forcing its beliefs about religion on the atheist against his or her will.

The reason that it took so long was sheer FEAR. I was afraid that if I accepted the Bible and the Word it contained I would have to completely change my lifestyle. I would have to 'give up' much of what I enjoyed and simply sacrifice too much.

I was SO wrong that I look back now and regret MOST of the life that I led previous to accepting Christ into my heart. Sooo much wasted time. So much time spent filled with hate and sorrow. See, I had a conscience even when living for myself, so there was much guilt surrounding my actions.

Again, you seem to be assuming that I, or all atheists,

1) "fear the bible and the word it contained", and/or
2) are wasting their lives, and/or
3) have lives filled with "hate and sorrow", and/or
4) are living for themselves.

I do not believe any of these are true of me. And, again, I don't think any of these are true of most atheists either.

Most of this is gone now. I have come to the realization that what I was designed to live for is LOVE. And as I learn to exhibit this, my life begins to take on a completely 'different' demeanor. Where there was MUCH sorrow, there is now much joy, where there was much strife, much more peace, where there was hate, now there is an understanding of the needs of my fellow man and much pleasure and satisfaction in making an effort to think about them instead of ONLY myself.

Know 'how' it changed? I simply asked God to HELP me. Help me be what HE wanted me to be. Didn't happen overnight. I am still a 'work in progress' and will be to the day I die. But as I have grown in strength, I have also grown in love and understanding. So much more so than in the past, (when I 'thought' I KNEW everything), that I look back and only see utter 'foolishness' where I thought I was 'cool' and 'smarter' than everyone else, I was NOTHING but an utter fool. So caught up in myself that I couldn't begin to think of others and their worlds.

Stick around, my friend, there IS much to learn here. There are some that have a relatively firm grasp of the nature of God and His Son. Kind of like music. You hear enough of the 'same song' it doesn't really matter how good or bad it is, eventually it WILL become a 'part of your life'.

Your religion clearly works for you; it makes me happy that you find happiness through it. Can you accept, then, that the atheist can be perfectly happy and successful in his own right?

 

[Drew]

Because it is impossible to define what constitutes "righteous" behavior. Start a thread on the subject, you'll quickly see what I mean.

I take it that you were not convinced by my argument that "righteous behaviour" can indeed be an "objective" property of a system of individuals operating in a world of limited resources. I thought that you were somewhat sympathetic to it.

 

[Imagican]

Nov,

Denial doesn't 'change' the truth. While I agree that seldom will someone openly admit their fears, that doesn't mean that they don't exist. Denial doesn't alter them in the least.

No, I guess YOU are probably right; we are probably NOT as alike as I indicated. But in the 'crucial' matters, I believe that we were more alike than different.

And, from the perspective that you continually offer, YOU know NO more about MOST atheist than I am able to speak for MOST Christians. You, my friend, are nothing short of a hypocrite. You accuse others of the SAME faults that you present. You sit back and 'needle' others and offer NOTHING of substance, yet with the SAME faults inherent in YOUR posts that you so accuse other of exhibiting. Shame shame my friend.

I don't know why you mentioned your 'good job' and 'student' status. I see NO relevance to this statement. I'm sure there was a 'reason' for their mention, but I didn't 'catch it'.

If the way in which I 'type' my posts bothers you, I apologize. But it will not change. I think that after reading them for a short period of time, it becomes 'obvious' as to the 'why'. Emphasis on 'certain' words and it's pretty easy to follow once you get 'use' to it.

Worship is CERTAINLY not limited to deity. One worships what one adores. You may certainly create 'your own' definitions for words, but that changes their meaning NOT IN THE LEAST. Many seem to be confused about this word. Just another example of denial.

You have offered MUCH in your statement concerning your debates here being a 'hobby'. It becomes much more apparent through statements such as these that you ARE here to offer subversion. You offer NOTHING of substance and EVERYTHING to 'take away from' that which matters most. You ARE an ambassador of your father. Anyone that has ANY understanding whatsoever easily recognizes such. While I condemn you NOT for your efforts in this direction, I DO recognize such and am more than willing to point it out. Nothing personal. Just what I am here to do. For this is not so much a 'hobby' of mine, as an offering of that which has been given freely and an attempt to spread what has been offered.

Nov, you seem to be a relatively 'bright guy'. There are many more 'beneficial' ways in which you could 'use' what you have been given. To use it in such a 'negative manor' will one day fill you with regret. Not a threat or idle words without meaning. What I offer is 'truth' beyond the mere understanding of the world or he who has been 'given' dominion over it.

 

[Novum]

Nov,

Denial doesn't 'change' the truth. While I agree that seldom will someone openly admit their fears, that doesn't mean that they don't exist. Denial doesn't alter them in the least.

You said you were not going to be the Thought Police, yet right here we see you trying to guess (or tell me) what I'm thinking. You are a liar.

No, I guess YOU are probably right; we are probably NOT as alike as I indicated. But in the 'crucial' matters, I believe that we were more alike than different.

Who defines what the crucial matters are? You? :

And, from the perspective that you continually offer, YOU know NO more about MOST atheist than I am able to speak for MOST Christians. You, my friend, are nothing short of a hypocrite. You accuse others of the SAME faults that you present. You sit back and 'needle' others and offer NOTHING of substance, yet with the SAME faults inherent in YOUR posts that you so accuse other of exhibiting. Shame shame my friend.

Perhaps. But your attempts to generalize your beliefs onto all Christians have been repeatedly, soundly destroyed by other Christians on this very board when they speak up and disagree with you.

I don't know why you mentioned your 'good job' and 'student' status. I see NO relevance to this statement. I'm sure there was a 'reason' for their mention, but I didn't 'catch it'.

To illustrate that I participate on these boards in my spare time. Unlike you, I do not debate with whomever is willing to listen to me.

And I don't know why you think I said my job was "good". I did not say that. ;)

If the way in which I 'type' my posts bothers you, I apologize. But it will not change. I think that after reading them for a short period of time, it becomes 'obvious' as to the 'why'. Emphasis on 'certain' words and it's pretty easy to follow once you get 'use' to it.

What the heck are you talking about? Are you sure you're responding to my latest post?

Worship is CERTAINLY not limited to deity. One worships what one adores. You may certainly create 'your own' definitions for words, but that changes their meaning NOT IN THE LEAST. Many seem to be confused about this word. Just another example of denial.

Please provide one good reason why the world at large should accept your personal, subjective definition of the word worship.

You have offered MUCH in your statement concerning your debates here being a 'hobby'. It becomes much more apparent through statements such as these that you ARE here to offer subversion. You offer NOTHING of substance and EVERYTHING to 'take away from' that which matters most. You ARE an ambassador of your father. Anyone that has ANY understanding whatsoever easily recognizes such. While I condemn you NOT for your efforts in this direction, I DO recognize such and am more than willing to point it out. Nothing personal. Just what I am here to do. For this is not so much a 'hobby' of mine, as an offering of that which has been given freely and an attempt to spread what has been offered.

Here's the paranoid delusion section. No Imagican post is complete without one!

Nov, you seem to be a relatively 'bright guy'. There are many more 'beneficial' ways in which you could 'use' what you have been given. To use it in such a 'negative manor' will one day fill you with regret.

Who defines beneficial or negative ways that I could be using my time? You? :

 

[Klee shay]

Novum when a person shares with you their own personal (before I became a believer) story; it is not an implication that you are the same. I recall having a few conversations with you myself which involved the before I became a Christian and the after. It was great at first, we were sharing back and forth, and then you turned around and started to analyse my experience when you felt I was implying it was the same as yours.

Sharing a personal experience with another human being is not implying exact outcomes. It is not a crime which needs to be accounted for.

You have very eloquently pointed out to Imagican that you are not the same; and that's all which really needs clarifying when talking about personal experiences with another human being. Using lables such as "paranoid delusions" and "thought police" however, isn't a nice way to interact with people who expose a very personal experience which changed their lives.

You don't have to appreciate their experience, but you'll get a far better reaction when you don't try taking their experience as a carbon copy of your own (yet to be lived) experience. It's just sharing. :wink:

I enjoy reading some of your contributions Novum, this place would be far less surprising without you...and you inject an enthusiasm for logic and learning which I'm sure some of us can only sit back and admire. You certainly have your own presence. But please don't take to heart what someone else shares as their personal experience with becoming a believer. The transformation is very personal and meaningful to them. It hurts when it's analysed as a shody example of how it's not meant to be for everybody else.

When sharing, it's meant in the light of "this is how it was for me" not "this is how it WILL BE for you."

But anyway, lecture over... :

 

[Novum]

When sharing, it's meant in the light of "this is how it was for me" not "this is how it WILL BE for you."

Yes, that is how it should be. But, unlike everyone else, Imagican is an exception. I suggest you reread the section of his previous post that I labeled a "paranoid delusion"; I honestly can't describe it as anything else.

When we share our experiences with others, I agree with you that we are all stronger in the end. But that is not what Imagican does, as even a cursory reading of his more outrageous posts will reveal that he forcefully imposes his will onto others, declares others' beliefs for them, and remains intolerant of the possibility that he could be wrong. He is the poison for the fruit that is our discourse here.

Again, I don't mind in the slightest whether you are Christian, Buddhist, Atheist, or otherwise. But if you show such blatant disrespect, as Imagican has, to those who disagree with you, then you'll find others reacting negatively. With Imagican, it truly is "this is how it WILL BE for you".

 

[I Reckon Sow]

I give up on this one. I stand with my belief. You, like the Pharisees, think that Sabbath is for God and not for men. Jesus said differently. He told us that God made the Sabbath for men.

Soo... if you believe God made the sabbath for man, why wouldnt you wanna keep (hold on to) (cherish) this day HE made for us. Why would you ignore that day God made for us and look for another made by man?

I do keep it. I can keep on Saturday. I can't speak for anyone else. :wink: But weren't all days made by God?

Yes ChristineES
All days were made by God. But He only sanctfied one as the sabbath.

In the book the Faith of our Fathers which was written by James cardinal Gibbons in 1876, he makes this statement.“But you may read the bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify.†I figure he should know what hes talkin about being one heart beat away from popedumbship.

EZEKIEL 20 [12] Moreover also I GAVE THEM MY SABBATHS, TO BE A SIGN between me and them, that they might know THAT I AM THE LORD THAT SANCTIFY THEM.

The sabbath is a sign between God and his people that the “Lord does sanctify themâ€Â.

ISAIAH 66 [15] For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.[16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.[17] THEY THAT SANCTIFY THEMSELVES, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, SHALL BE CONSUMED together, saith the LORD.

I just love Day of the Lord scriptures ChristineES. No one can claim that the scripture is for ancient Israel, because its yet to be fulfilled. Anyways, if the sabbath is a sign that God sanctifys you. Who are those that “sanctify themselves�

Just a little somethin extra to show how great the WORD is! There are only 2 places in the KJV where the words “moreover also†can be found

EZEK.20 [12] MOREOVER ALSO I gave them MY SABBATHS, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them

ACTS 2 [26] Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; MOREOVER ALSO MY FLESH SHALL REST in hope:

If you will notice in ACTS 2 the WORD says “my flesh shall rest in hopeâ€Â. Just as GODS 4th commandment tells us to do. You will NOT find any scriptures that say you do not need to keep Gods sabbath day because you are NOW resting in Jesus. You will NOT find any scriptures that say Jesus is our sabbath rest.