God's Will?

[chessman]

As for "dueling proof-texts", I don't know of any verses that contradict one another. If they appear to do so, then either one text or the other .. or BOTH, are not being properly understood. So this is not a matter of "my text says this" while "your text says that", rather, it's about how to properly interpret all of the text(s) we have before us ...

st_worm2 here's one believer who very much appreciates your well thought out, well expressed, and courteously delivered messages

Make that two.

I don't know about other believers, but I'm personnaly still learning God's word and proper application thereof. I appreciate the insight others may have about the various Texts as they may very well have seen proofs therein that I've missed.

 

[Pegasus]

I often hear people say that "God is in control".
I disagree. I think that He CAN exercise control, but that He does not always do so.

I often hear "God's will always happens",
I disagree. I think that His will DOES often happen, but not always.

I often hear people say, "If it happened, then it was God's will".
I think that many things happen that are outside of His will.

If the above three italicized statements are all true, then, well, abortion happens. Is abortion, at least sometimes, God's will? (I say no. You will have a very hard time convincing me otherwise.)

See, my position is that God allows a LOT of stuff that is NOT in His will. I MUST take this position, otherwise, I must accept that His will includes some things that I find contradictory to what I understand His character to be.

I do not post here for a debate or argument, I instead ask others to offer me their view, their wisdom. Am I overlooking something within logic or scripture?

Can some of you help me out here?

James 4:

13 Go to now, ye that say, To day or to morrow we will go into such a city, and continue there a year, and buy and sell, and get gain:

14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

16 But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

Now on your abortion example. Does abortion glorify God? No.

God is Righteous, Holy.

 

[Jim Parker]

As for "dueling proof-texts", I don't know of any verses that contradict one another.

And, thereby, you demonstrate that you totally missed the point.
"Verses," most often, do not stand alone. (Proverbs is an exception)
"Verses" are not part of the original scriptures. They were added in the 1500s as "signposts" to help navigate.
Lifting a single "verse" or two out of context is a recipe for false doctrine.
EX: ".. Judas t... hanged himself." (Mat 27:5 ) “Go and do likewise.” (Luk 10:37b)
But that is exactly what people do by indulging in "proof-texting."

So when someone quotes Ephesians 2:8 and 9 (Purposely neglecting to mention verse 10) as Paul's teaching, Paul didn't write "Ephesians 2:8-9." What Paul wrote, without any chapter and verse numbers, was:

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity. And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off and to those who were near. For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.
And much more

 

[st_worm2]

Hi Jim, just FYI, I used Ephesians 2:10 (right after commenting on v8-9, in fact ) as the ending to Post #58 (just one page back in this very thread). Since it has a bearing on my reply to your last post (post #64), I'll re-post that section of Post #58.

Here you go:

//////////////////////////////////////////////////

Good works/holy living is the RESULT of being saved, not the CAUSE. IOW, only a Christian can 'act' like a Christian!

Non-Christians cannot. They cannot know His will because they do not "know" Him. Nor do they have the "HS" or the "mind of Christ" (so they cannot obey Him). In fact, they cannot accept or understand the things of God because such wondrous things must be "spiritually appraised" .. Matthew 7:22-23; 1 Corinthians 2:12-16).

As St. Paul tells us in several places, we are saved by grace through faith apart from works.

5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. ~Rom 4

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. ~Eph 2

5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy ~Titus 3
​

The doing of good works is certainly one of the principle reasons that He saves us (and then leaves us in this world .. cf Matthew 5:16). But we are not saved (nor do we remain saved) on the basis of what we 'do'.

Yours and His,
David

"We are His masterpiece, created in
Christ Jesus for* good works"
Ephesians 2:10
​

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////

*("for" not "because of" good works)!

Quoting entire passages isn't necessary (nor is it normally efficient) in a format such as this as long as the verses that are excerpted retain their contextual meaning!

This was certainly the case in my earlier use of Ephesians 2:8-9 (see above), since Ephesians 2:8-9 explains the manner in which we are saved, and Ephesians 2:10 explains the result and purpose of our salvation (again, see the excerpt above from Post #58).

I first joined this particular thread because I agreed with chessman and his contextual understanding of 2 Peter 3:9. At the same time, I disagreed with your understanding of the verse since it:

1) removed v9 from the context in which it was written (incl. Book/Chapter/Passage) and, at the same time,
2) required the final "phrase" of v9 to have a different meaning from the rest of the very verse that it's written in.​

So I find it fascinating that you chose to make, "lifting a single verse or two out of context is a recipe for false doctrine"/"proof-texting", the point of your last post, because it seems to me that in doing so, you've given us a perfect example of the proverbial, "pot calling the kettle black"

HAPPY THANKSGIVING (assuming you live in the USA, of course)

Yours and His,
David

"If it is by grace, then it is not by works; otherwise
grace would no longer be grace"
Rom 11:6​

 

[Jim Parker]

Good works/holy living is the RESULT of being saved, not the CAUSE.

I agree. No amount of good works can ever save a sinner with the exception of one specific "work": to believe in the Son of God.
God, through Jesus, saved all of mankind from the death which is the wages of sin.
God gives eternal life to all who believe.
BUT, believing is not just a mental exercise that automatically turns on the "good works" circuit. It requires willful effort on our part to practice acting like Christians. That is why the letters of Paul and Peter and James and John contain admonitions to the churches to do the good works for which we were created. If it were automatic then none of those admonitions would be necessary.

The doing of good works is certainly one of the principle reasons that He saves us (and then leaves us in this world .. cf Matthew 5:16). But we are not saved (nor do we remain saved) on the basis of what we 'do'.

According to James, without those good works, with faith alone, no one will be saved. It's similar to being hired to do a job. If you showed up for work every day but never did any work, you could expect to be fired. (Unless, of course, you worked for the government. Ha Ha)
That is why Jesus said that those in Him, who did not produce fruit, would cut off from Him. To be "in Christ" is to be saved. To be "cut off from Christ" is to be lost.

("for" not "because of" good works)!

Luke 6:46 (NKJV) “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,' and not do the things which I say?"
If you do not do the good works for which you were created in obedience to Jesus' command then He is not your Lord and you (generic) are not saved. Such a "believer" is like the unprofitable servant of Mat 25:14-30 who did nothing with what the Lord had given him and was cast into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (I don't think that means heaven.)

This was certainly the case in my earlier use of Ephesians 2:8-9 (see above), since Ephesians 2:8-9 explains the manner in which we are saved, and Ephesians 2:10 explains the result and purpose of our salvation

Again, you have taken a small piece out of the whole cloth and ignored the rest.
That's that "proof-texting" false method of making bits and pieces of scripture match one's theology rather than making one's theology match the whole of scripture.
That's why I posted the entire passage without the distraction of the man made and inserted verse numbers which have nothing to do with what Paul had to say and, in fact, take from the message by encouraging the "cut-and-paste" religion of "proof-texting" by which anyone can make up any crackpot religious system they want by lifting "verses" out of their context and arranging them so that they support the cracked pottery.
The SCRIPTURES have no chapters and verses; they are the addition of Bible printers inserted INTO the scriptures for convenience sake.

God saves.
Only God CAN save.
We don't earn salvation by our works.
But NO ONE will be saved who believes but then refuses or neglects to obey Christ's commands because "a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24 NKJV)

There is no such thing as a person of faith who is not faithful.


iakov the fool


DISCLAIMER: By reading the words posted above, you have made a free will choice to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that, in any manner, may allegedly be related to the reader’s deliberate act by which he/she has knowingly allowed the above rantings to enter into his/her consciousness. No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. And, no, I don't want to hear about it. No sniveling! Enjoy the rest of your life here and the eternal one to come.

 

[st_worm2]

Again, you have taken a small piece out of the whole cloth and ignored the rest.
That's that "proof-texting" false method of making bits and pieces of scripture match one's theology rather than making one's theology match the whole of scripture. That's why I posted the entire passage without the distraction of the man made and inserted verse numbers which have nothing to do with what Paul had to say and, in fact, take from the message by encouraging the "cut-and-paste" religion of "proof-texting" by which anyone can make up any crackpot religious system they want by lifting "verses" out of their context and arranging them so that they support the cracked pottery.The SCRIPTURES have no chapters and verses; they are the addition of Bible printers inserted INTO the scriptures for convenience sake.

Hi Jim, there's more to cover, but since you've brought this subject up twice now (if it's ok with you) lets start with the issue of "proof-texting" first.

You posited the entirety of Ephesians 2 w/o verse #'s to prove that my exegesis of v8-9 amounted to "proof-texting" (which means that you do not believe my understanding of those two verses in contextually correct). Please tell me what 'you' believe v8-9 are actually teaching us, and how the context of Chapter 2 supports 'your' understanding of those verses (and how it invalidates mine).

Here again are the verses in question (I'll add v10 in for good measure ):

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. ~Ephesians 2

I believe the meaning of these verses is the same whether they are taken in or out of context. You say no, that they actually mean something else in the context of Chapter 2. So (as I just asked you above) please tell me what you believe those verses ACTUALLY mean, in context, and show me, specifically, why/how you came to that conclusion.

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David
p.s. - when you're done with Ephesians 2 (and while we're still on the subject of "proof-texting"), please help me understand how pulling the third "phrase" of 2 Peter 3:9 out of the context and giving it a completely different meaning from the rest of the Book/Chapter/Passage (and even the very verse) that it's written in, is not "proof-texting". Thanks again!

 

[Papa Zoom]

I am enjoying the conversation. Must to digest. I've nothing to add as I'm late to the party and much has been said. Thanks for the though provoking conversations!

 

[chessman]

But NO ONE will be saved who believes but then refuses or neglects to obey Christ's commands because "a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." (James 2:24 NKJV)

As someone once said:

That's that "proof-texting" false method of making bits and pieces of scripture match one's theology rather than making one's theology match the whole of scripture.

James 2:24 (NKJV) You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. ​

I see then that you left off bits and pieces of this text that proves to you that "NO ONE will be saved who believes but then refuses or neglects to obey Christ's commands".

As someone once said:

you have taken a small piece out of the whole cloth and ignored the rest.

That's why I posted the entire passage without the distraction of the man made and inserted verse numbers which have nothing to do with what Paul had to say and, in fact, take from the message by encouraging the "cut-and-paste" religion of "proof-texting" by which anyone can make up any crackpot religious system they want by lifting "verses" out of their context and arranging them so that they support the cracked pottery.

Can you prove Paul wrote Ephesians?

How, exactly, do verse numbers take from the message or encourage "cut and paste" religion?

When you did the "cut and paste" of a portion of James' sentence above, were the verse numbers encouraging you to do that or was it what James said in the portion you left out that encouraged you to cut that portion out?

 

[Jim Parker]

Please tell me what 'you' believe v8-9 are actually teaching us,

I just did.
Obviously, you totally missed my point. (sigh)

 

[Pegasus]

I just did.
Obviously, you totally missed my point. (sigh)

Would you please link the thread where you did? Have not seen it.

Edit: I see your response in #66. Thank you.

 

[Jim Parker]

Would you please link the thread where you did? Have not seen it.

You replied to it.

 

[Jim Parker]

I see then that you left off bits and pieces of this text that proves to you that "NO ONE will be saved who believes but then refuses or neglects to obey Christ's commands".

SO read the entire chapter and you will find that the statement "a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." is a summation of all that preceded it.

Can you prove Paul wrote Ephesians?

How do you imagine that can possible have any relevance to the subject at hand?

How, exactly, do verse numbers take from the message or encourage "cut and paste" religion?

Because it encourages people to look at a piece of a teaching lifted out of the entire teaching as if it stood alone, independent of its context. It does not.
The context of any sentence determines how the sentence should be understood.
Taking a sentence out of context opens the sentence to speculation about and misunderstanding of its meaning.

When you did the "cut and paste" of a portion of James' sentence above, were the verse numbers encouraging you to do that or was it what James said in the portion you left out that encouraged you to cut that portion out?

The verse I "cut and pasted" is a summary of what James has just written.
The whole passage was about the need to act upon the faith one has.
The Ephesians passage, from which the "faith alone" folk love to cut and paste two verses, is NOT about salvation by faith alone. It is about God's grace toward the gentiles for whom God made salvation available.
Note the part of that passage that begins with "Therefore":
Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

That part of the passage reveals that, when Paul said, "not by works" he was referring to works OF THE LAW as opposed to the GOOD WORKS for which we were created. That was Paul's message to the Gentiles; they were not required to do the WORKS OF THE LAW. That's what the letter to the Galatian church is about.

The scripture does not contradict itself. Paul and James are in agreement with the teaching of Jesus Christ that is one is a believer he is supposed to let his good works be seen by all so that God may be glorified.

"Proof-texting" is the practice of lifting a piece of a passage out of it's context to make it appear to teach something that it does not teach. Not all references to specific verses are examples of "proof-texting." James 2:24 is a summary of what preceded Just as Gal 5:2-4 is a summary of what Paul told the Galatians who wanted to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses. Because they are brief summations of what preceded, they do not lose the teaching of the preceding verses.

iakov the fool

 

[Edward]

I often hear people say that "God is in control".
I disagree. I think that He CAN exercise control, but that He does not always do so.

I often hear "God's will always happens",
I disagree. I think that His will DOES often happen, but not always.

I often hear people say, "If it happened, then it was God's will".
I think that many things happen that are outside of His will.

If the above three italicized statements are all true, then, well, abortion happens. Is abortion, at least sometimes, God's will? (I say no. You will have a very hard time convincing me otherwise.)

See, my position is that God allows a LOT of stuff that is NOT in His will. I MUST take this position, otherwise, I must accept that His will includes some things that I find contradictory to what I understand His character to be.

I do not post here for a debate or argument, I instead ask others to offer me their view, their wisdom. Am I overlooking something within logic or scripture?

Can some of you help me out here?

Without reading any other post but this one...
God is in control...

True. Though He may not always exercise control.

God's will always happens...

No. The evil hurtful nature of man almost always goes against God's will. He wants us to seek Him of our own volition. To emulate Him, and to walk in His will, which (loosely) almost never happens.

If it happened then it was God's will.

No. Take a look around... God's will? Uh, no. Abortion? Probably not God's will. I say probably, because of the man blind from birth. Neither him nor his parents sinned...but (because) God be glorified. So perhaps once or twice maybe because He had a plan for them...?

I don't know for sure. But I do know that the victims of abortion are received by God and are compensated for being wronged. God holds the power over life and death so being murdered here is not losing ones life ultimately.

Hth's.

 

[Pizza]

Exaclty, Edward.

 

[chessman]

The verse I "cut and pasted" is a summary of what James has just written.

You didn't cut and paste even a whole verse. You sniped part of it and pasted a part of a sentence. Leaving out the part that truly sets the context.

SO read the entire chapter and you will find that the statement "a man is justified by works, and not by faith only." is a summation of all that preceded it.

No it's not. It's not even James' whole sentence.

James 2:24 (LEB) You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. ​

When you chopped off the fact that James is talking about (summaries) how "you see" (how people can tell who is justified, who has faith or not), you commit the very erroneous Bible study method you sling at others. That's my point.

I don't disagree that v24 is a summary verse. But it's not a summary of how to obtain salvation. It's a summary of how the church can see if people have faith or not. YOU see their works! You cannot see their hearts.

 

[Brother Mike]

I often hear people say that "God is in control".
I disagree. I think that He CAN exercise control, but that He does not always do so.

I often hear "God's will always happens",
I disagree. I think that His will DOES often happen, but not always.

I often hear people say, "If it happened, then it was God's will".
I think that many things happen that are outside of His will.

If the above three italicized statements are all true, then, well, abortion happens. Is abortion, at least sometimes, God's will? (I say no. You will have a very hard time convincing me otherwise.)

See, my position is that God allows a LOT of stuff that is NOT in His will. I MUST take this position, otherwise, I must accept that His will includes some things that I find contradictory to what I understand His character to be.

I do not post here for a debate or argument, I instead ask others to offer me their view, their wisdom. Am I overlooking something within logic or scripture?

Can some of you help me out here?

Jesus said all things are possible to them that believe.

Are all things possible for everyone? Nope.

The disciples could not cast out the devil from the lunatic son. Jesus said because of your unbelief, despite the power given to them to even raise the dead. Since they failed, was it God's will the Son not be free? Nope. Human lack of faith and lack of time spent with God and in the Word building up their most holy faith is not God fault.

Both men heard the Word. One man was a doer of the Word and took it to heart building his house on a rock. The other guy heard the same, but did not take heed or meditate on it. He built his house on loose gravel. (Sand)

The flood came for both houses, but the results were vastly different for each man.

God said................
Psa_85:2 Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.

Psa 103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Psa 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

If we believe God will forgive, we also must believe no sickness has a chance to destroy us. If we believe God can make things right and perfect about all things we are concerned, (Psalm 138:8) then things must be right, life fixed, dead things we let go brought back.

The Question is never if it's God's will that someone get help. It's never a question of His will concerning victory in our life. We are more than conquerors through Christ Jesus and He always causes us the victory.

God's will and integrity is not in question. What do you believe, what do you say will happen. That is what is in question.

Mike.

 

[Randy]

I often hear people say that "God is in control".
I disagree. I think that He CAN exercise control, but that He does not always do so.

I often hear "God's will always happens",
I disagree. I think that His will DOES often happen, but not always.

I often hear people say, "If it happened, then it was God's will".
I think that many things happen that are outside of His will.

If the above three italicized statements are all true, then, well, abortion happens. Is abortion, at least sometimes, God's will? (I say no. You will have a very hard time convincing me otherwise.)

See, my position is that God allows a LOT of stuff that is NOT in His will. I MUST take this position, otherwise, I must accept that His will includes some things that I find contradictory to what I understand His character to be.

I do not post here for a debate or argument, I instead ask others to offer me their view, their wisdom. Am I overlooking something within logic or scripture?

Can some of you help me out here?

Its called freewill. There will come a day when the Lord deals with His enemies. (visible and invisible) And the last thing destroyed will be death itself.
Jesus stated an enemy of Him sows the weeds. And spoke of a day when those weeds and those that sow them will be pulled up and thrown into the fire.

 

[Pizza]

Jesus said all things are possible to them that believe.

Are all things possible for everyone? Nope.

The disciples could not cast out the devil from the lunatic son. Jesus said because of your unbelief, despite the power given to them to even raise the dead. Since they failed, was it God's will the Son not be free? Nope. Human lack of faith and lack of time spent with God and in the Word building up their most holy faith is not God fault.

Both men heard the Word. One man was a doer of the Word and took it to heart building his house on a rock. The other guy heard the same, but did not take heed or meditate on it. He built his house on loose gravel. (Sand)

The flood came for both houses, but the results were vastly different for each man.

God said................
Psa_85:2 Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.

Psa 103:2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
Psa 103:3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

If we believe God will forgive, we also must believe no sickness has a chance to destroy us. If we believe God can make things right and perfect about all things we are concerned, (Psalm 138:8) then things must be right, life fixed, dead things we let go brought back.

The Question is never if it's God's will that someone get help. It's never a question of His will concerning victory in our life. We are more than conquerors through Christ Jesus and He always causes us the victory.

God's will and integrity is not in question. What do you believe, what do you say will happen. That is what is in question.

Mike.

What does ANY of that have to do with the question I asked? I asked, if God's will always happens - then abortion is Go'd will, right? Since abortion is most certainly NOT God's will, then God's will does not always happen.

 

[smaller]

Why would any believer think God is not in control or out of control or doesn't get His Will done or can't get His Will done? Such a God wouldn't be worth the term God.

Hebrews 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

 

[Pizza]

You just can't bring yourself to answer my question, can you SMALLER?

It is the ultimate proof of my point: If you want to say that God's will always happens, then you must agree that abortion is God's will - and THAT does not make any sense, does it? Any of us can mine for verses to 'prove' almost anything - but God gave us human intellect as well.

God COULD FORCE His will to happen - but free will would go out the window, and any love, admiration or worship He'd receive then would be artificial, worthless.

Fact is, God's will does not always happen. But His love, forgiveness and concern for us always flows.