God's Will?

[Brother Mike]

What does ANY of that have to do with the question I asked? I asked, if God's will always happens - then abortion is Go'd will, right? Since abortion is most certainly NOT God's will, then God's will does not always happen.

Well, OK. How complex do you want this? Your right, God's will is not always done, in fact, most the time on earth His will is not getting done.

Our faith plays a big part also. Something believers should always keep in mind. That is complex also, because in Heaven God's will is always done. No sickness, no bad reruns of boring TV shows, so on.

The disciples were given power to raise the dead, Heal the sick, cast out devils. The power was there, and to be freely given without spending 2 hours in prayer to see if God wanted to deliver each person. It's God's will everyone be free of oppression and the devil.

However, they run into a father and son, who's son was possessed to the point we would call the boy extremely mentally Ill today.

Power Given:
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Epic Fail:
Lord, have mercy on my son: for he is lunatick, and sore vexed: for ofttimes he falleth into the fire, and oft into the water. And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him.
(Mat 17:15-16)

Reason:
Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

God's will is also dependent on what we believe. So someone that does not serve God, then they will go have that abortion as you said. The disciples did not write a book on how God Heals some, and some don't get healed, they were not that stupid. Jesus cast the devil out, and He only did the will of His Father.

However, we also have a couple of cases like Jonah. Jonah was not going were the Lord said go, and so a fish came to take Jonah where the Lord wanted him. I wish everything worked like that, but we have a devil contesting everything we believe about scriptures.

Mike.

 

[Pizza]

Well, OK. How complex do you want this? Your right, God's will is not always done, in fact, most the time on earth His will is not getting done.

Then we agree.

God's will is also dependent on what we believe.

No, it is not. And I'm not sure what you were saying, because the rest of that paragraph contradicted this. I get the idea that you "typo-d" and meant to put "not" before "dependent". ;)

 

[smaller]

You just can't bring yourself to answer my question, can you SMALLER?

If you and I don't have understanding between ourselves let's recognize that's all it is. I'm OK with you having different understanding than me. I find no basis to make such charges to you, as you do.

The scripture cited answers the question. As do many others in like vein.

Heb. 1:
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Reasoning says to me that God is in control. It may seem otherwise to you. That's not my bad.

It is the ultimate proof of my point: If you want to say that God's will always happens, then you must agree that abortion is God's will

God quite entirely obviously WILLS the natural man to die. Ways and means serve this intent. Am I happy about this? No. The flesh is never happy about it's demise. But whether our flesh agrees with it or not is quite entirely irrelevant to the fact that people DIE.

So, you focus on abortion. Others may focus on diseases or old age or any myriad of death instruments at Gods Employ.

Here is a scriptural fact: God Kills and God Makes Alive. Deut. 32:39

You can claim that the power of death is not Gods servant. I will cite the scriptures that state for no uncertainty that God created ALL POWERS which includes the power of death, and that the power of death SERVES God's Purposes to kill, exactly as scriptures propose is the fact.

- and THAT does not make any sense, does it?

Gods Intentions were never to have the flesh exist for "eternity." There is a natural man, bound for death, in EVERY CASE, other than those at the end, given as examples of "translation" to "change" at the end. Phil. 3:21, 1 Cor. 15:51, 1 Thes. 4:17.

Make of the facts of ANY death, what you will. Scripture states that the natural man was never meant to be a long term prospect. 1 Cor. 15:42-46.

Eventually these kinds of conversations turn to the facts that evil is in this creation. And yes, that ALSO is exactly by Gods Own Design and Intentions.

Any of us can mine for verses to 'prove' almost anything - but God gave us human intellect as well.

We can't intellect past reality. Reality of scriptures say God created all things and that all things serve His Purposes and Pleasures. Rev. 4:11.

Whether we agree with Gods Construct of reality, or not, is quite entirely irrelevant. We either see God as in "control" of all things OR we have a belief that God is OUT OF CONTROL, CAN'T get His Will Done and is essentially out of power. And that's pretty much where your head is at.

God COULD FORCE His will to happen

His Will is ALWAYS in force. What makes you think otherwise is the only question.

- but free will would go out the window, and any love, admiration or worship He'd receive then would be artificial, worthless.

I don't believe in "freewill." I believe only in Gods Perfect Will. The Only Will that matters is not "my own."

Fact is, God's will does not always happen. But His love, forgiveness and concern for us always flows.

You can believe that your God is not in control, has no power, doesn't get His Will Done and what have you.

Such a God is not worthy of much, imho. Certainly no God to me, such a toothless God.

 

[Brother Mike]

Then we agree.


No, it is not. And I'm not sure what you were saying, because the rest of that paragraph contradicted this. I get the idea that you "typo-d" and meant to put "not" before "dependent". ;)

OK, I'll rephrase that. God's will "BEING" done is "OFTEN" dependent on Us. Faith, obedience, faithfulness all play a factor in our personal lives in God's will being done. God's Word is already set, and Peter said we have a more sure Word of Prophecy, but concerning our personal lives, it's all up to us, to do "OUR" part, and God always does His Part.

Example, Jesus told the 10 Leapers to go show themselves to the priest. His will is they be healed, that is the Outcome God wants.
You did not just show yourself to the priest though full of Leprosy. That would be suicide, you had to have certain conditions with your skin before you even considered going to the priest. You could be kicked out of the city, or all kinds of bad things could happen.

And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off: And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us. And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
(Luk 17:12-14)


Now they could have said, "Wait a minute Jesus, you crazy? We saw you say to one guy be thou clean, why not just do that for us, so we can go to the priest clean?"

They could have also said, "Forget that, we are not going to no priest full of leprosy."

It's God's Will they be healed, but do they get Healed if they did not trust what Jesus said and start walking to the Sanhedrin Headquarters? Scripture says, "on their way they were healed" IF they just left, and said forget that, is God's will done that they get healed?

Lot's of folks like Smaller believe that no matter what we believe, our faith. We get the same results as someone who is full of fear and has no faith. God's will is always done. Faith and obedience does not matter.

However, God also does things by no choice against His Will.

Lam_3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

He has to judge, and His will is to bless and prosper, not judge and allow affliction to come in.

I

 

[smaller]

Lot's of folks like Smaller believe that no matter what we believe, our faith. We get the same results as someone who is full of fear and has no faith. God's will is always done. Faith and obedience does not matter.

I don't believe in using faith as a fulcrum of deployments for personal power or personal magic acts in Jesus' Name. I've had my fill of phonies in that arena, full of optimism in their own "magic acts" but never coming with anything to the table of reality.

It is fair to say that God IS in control of "all things." This would include both cooperation of others with Him and resistance of others to Him, both of which are for His Own Uses.

However, God also does things by no choice against His Will.

That doesn't make much sense quite frankly.

Lam_3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

IF God made evil beings (God made all things) and chooses to resist them and chooses them to resist Him, there isn't really much that anyone can say to change the facts of that dynamic.

God does not deal with any person as 'an individual.' Mark 4:15, Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Romans 7:13, Romans 7:17-21, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:32, 1 Cor. 15:56, Gal. 5:17, Eph. 2:2, 2 Cor. 12:4, 1 John 3:8 and many other citings similar.

You or anyone else can claim the "evil present" with them is obedient. I will always look to such statements as NOT truthful statements.

He has to judge, and His will is to bless and prosper, not judge and allow affliction to come in.

Such claims are utter nonsense and entirely void of understandings. It's no different than the claims of the false prophets who only spoke/propesied nice and smooth things to the people of Israel. They were liars then. These kinds of claims are no different today. Believers, by the facts of our construct BY GOD, only want to hear and listen to the nice and good stuff. But they don't and never will come into understandings of HOW GOD MADE US on the opposite side of the ledgers.

And what do YOU do when nothing happens? The same as any other false claimer. You BLAME and ACCUSE the person for their lack of obedience/faith. I detest such forms of faith. IF any of the charismatics had a fraction of the power they claim to have for health/wealth they'd be thousands of years old and have more money than Solomon. Most of the charismatics I know die broke and went out the door of their flesh life sick til they died. FACT.

No amount of laying on of hands or prayers or faith claims or rosy optimism in the name of Jesus removes the fact of evil present with us. 2 Cor. 12:7-10. And God not only CAN but DOES deal quite harshly with that factual working IN US. Gal. 5:17.

God is the friend of no flesh. He merely tolerates us, in this planting. But the Spirit is and remains factually AGAINST and is in contention/contrariness with the flesh. Gal. 5:17. No person, by faith, changes this fact no matter how rosy of a picture they think they can paint the flesh with or how much optimism they think they can apply to the entirety of themselves.

1 John 5:19
And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

You can certainly claim this is not a fact, but any look at the world reveals this to be a fact. I consider this to be Gods Will as well. And we are not exempt from that same condition. Romans 3:9, Romans 7:21, 1 Tim. 1:15.

And yes, all of the things that happen in creation, every last move, is of and by GODS OWN WILL. Start to finish.

Acts 17:
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (NKJV)
That says it is God's will that all (everybody, all mankind) should come to repentance and be saved.
That's not happening so God's will is not universally done.

Just because God is completely sovereign, it doesn't mean that He is unable to allow man to exercise his free will.
It would be stupid to try to force anyone to love you and God doesn't do stupid things so, man gets to choose love and life of no love and death.

Pick one.

iakov the fool

Now how do you know for sure that God's longsuffering towards us isn't long enough, and in our soul's final thoughts bring repentance and salvation?

 

[Jim Parker]

Now how do you know for sure that God's longsuffering towards us isn't long enough, and in our soul's final thoughts bring repentance and salvation?

Because Jesus said that there is a hell and that people would be condemned to be sent there. (Mat 25:46)
I had thought the answer was obvious. My error.

 

[Pizza]

Now how do you know for sure that God's longsuffering towards us isn't long enough, and in our soul's final thoughts bring repentance and salvation?

What are you SAYING?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Because Jesus said that there is a hell and that people would be condemned to be sent there. (Mat 25:46)
I had thought the answer was obvious. My error.

That's not my point.
My point is anyone could turn back to God before they die, how can we judge they go to hell?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

What are you SAYING?

My answer to Parker above.

 

[Jim Parker]

That's not my point.
My point is anyone could turn back to God before they die, how can we judge they go to hell?

Ah so des ka!
We can't judge.
That was the fly in the ointment of the devil's lie about being like God knowing good and evil. We don't know people's hearts like God does.

 

[Pizza]

That's not my point.
My point is anyone could turn back to God before they die, how can we judge they go to hell?

No one here is judging. I find your "well maybe they turn to God in their last minutes" to be an odd theory.
If they didn't turn to God their whole like, why would they then? Many of us die without a chance to think, "Hey, I am about to die." My mother was one of those, as well as one of my nieces. Fortunately, my mom turned her heart over to Jesus years before. But, as far as I know, my niece never did.

 

[Pizza]

If you and I don't have understanding between ourselves let's recognize that's all it is. I'm OK with you having different understanding than me. I find no basis to make such charges to you, as you do.

The scripture cited answers the question. As do many others in like vein.

Heb. 1:
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Reasoning says to me that God is in control. It may seem otherwise to you. That's not my bad.


God quite entirely obviously WILLS the natural man to die. Ways and means serve this intent. Am I happy about this? No. The flesh is never happy about it's demise. But whether our flesh agrees with it or not is quite entirely irrelevant to the fact that people DIE.

So, you focus on abortion. Others may focus on diseases or old age or any myriad of death instruments at Gods Employ.

Here is a scriptural fact: God Kills and God Makes Alive. Deut. 32:39

You can claim that the power of death is not Gods servant. I will cite the scriptures that state for no uncertainty that God created ALL POWERS which includes the power of death, and that the power of death SERVES God's Purposes to kill, exactly as scriptures propose is the fact.



Gods Intentions were never to have the flesh exist for "eternity." There is a natural man, bound for death, in EVERY CASE, other than those at the end, given as examples of "translation" to "change" at the end. Phil. 3:21, 1 Cor. 15:51, 1 Thes. 4:17.

Make of the facts of ANY death, what you will. Scripture states that the natural man was never meant to be a long term prospect. 1 Cor. 15:42-46.

Eventually these kinds of conversations turn to the facts that evil is in this creation. And yes, that ALSO is exactly by Gods Own Design and Intentions.



We can't intellect past reality. Reality of scriptures say God created all things and that all things serve His Purposes and Pleasures. Rev. 4:11.

Whether we agree with Gods Construct of reality, or not, is quite entirely irrelevant. We either see God as in "control" of all things OR we have a belief that God is OUT OF CONTROL, CAN'T get His Will Done and is essentially out of power. And that's pretty much where your head is at.


His Will is ALWAYS in force. What makes you think otherwise is the only question.



I don't believe in "freewill." I believe only in Gods Perfect Will. The Only Will that matters is not "my own."


You can believe that your God is not in control, has no power, doesn't get His Will Done and what have you.

Such a God is not worthy of much, imho. Certainly no God to me, such a toothless God.

I mean to make no charge - just that abortion for "convenience" is not in God's will - but yet, millions of babies are killed each year.
Therefore, His will is not always carried out.

 

[JohnDB]

Closing down for cleaning

 

[JohnDB]

Re-opened

 

[smaller]

I mean to make no charge - just that abortion for "convenience" is not in God's will - but yet, millions of babies are killed each year.
Therefore, His will is not always carried out.

Nothing in Gods creation happens apart from His Will.

2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Acts 14:
24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

We may not care to hear of it is all. And that too is from God.

If God sows His Word, and Satan comes into the heart of man to resist Gods Word or to do evil, that IS also of God who is assuredly involved in the action. Mark 4:15, Acts 4:26-28, Romans 11:32.

 

[K2CHRIST]

Just because someone, anyone, is in control and in charge does not mean that all things happen according to their will!! It is just ridicules to think so.

I spent most of my life as a retail manager and in charge of a store. That did mean that a cashier couldn't make a mistake. Someone might still be mischarge though that was not supposed to happen. Sometimes we caught people stealing. Because people have that ability to make decisions and because people are not perfect, things happen. God knows things happen!! Oh my, do they ever.

And just because God knows and is in authority, it does mean that we are little computers. We are still people with the God given ability to make decisions and mistakes.

There is a reason that the Lord is called Wonderful Counselor and Teacher. It is because we need counsel and teaching. It is preposterous to think that is not so, and if it is so we have freewill and the ability to do things wrong. He is still Lord. I was still a retail manager. That didn't mean everything went as I wanted, and it doesn't mean that everything went as He wanted either. I knew things were not always going to go right. I even knew people, even employees, might actually steal. We had procedures and rules in place to help, but it still happened. God has procedures and laws in place, and it still happens that people either intentionally or not, violate those rules.

So God has forgiveness, mercy, and grace, and He is still the Teacher and the Wonderful Counselor so that He might help us do better. As management we also had some understanding, but not as much as the Lord of course. We did tolerate mistakes up to a point, but stealing got you fired, period! God has much more understanding and patience that we as retail managers had. Nerver-the-less some people are going to wind up getting "fired" so to speak. Hell is hot. Sometimes employees got fired for their actions and decisions. And some are going to get fired by God for their actions and decisions. We knew that, and He knows that. It doesn't mean we wanted it, and it doesn't mean He wants it. And knowing that it is going to happen doesn't change the fact! So God knowing some or even who is going to wind up in hell doesn't mean He wanted it, approved of it, or had control of it. People have a freewill. People can make decisions, that is just part of what it means to be a person.

And saying that all things work together for good for those that love Him has nothing to do with it. If you love your job you are going to try and do a good job. You are not going to steal, though you might still make mistakes. And if I was God and knew the employees heart I would not fired an employee that was trying to do a good job, at least as long as I could control their abilities and God can to that. And if you were not fired you got paid. So it would work out good for you, even if the job had it's ups and downs. So how much better will it work out for us if we love God and thus are trying to do a good job? How great is heaven and the kingdom of God?

 

[Jim Parker]

Reason:
Mat 17:19 Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
Mat 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.

Next verse: Mat 17:21 (NKJV) “However, this kind does not go out except by prayer and fasting.”

 

[th1b.taylor]

I find it difficult this exchange is going on! God's Perfect Will is that none should go to Hell and then onto the Abyss, I was sure all Christians knew that. Now, is that all there is to God? Granted, God's perfect will isw that noine of us should die but rather we everyone of us should repent and turn to Him. (2Pet. 3:9) But that is not the whole Nut that resides in that Shell. There is more tyo this this entire thing.

There is also God's Permissive Will and none of you appear to have a hold on that. God's Will, His Simple Will, I call it, is always completed as is His Permissive Will. God Perfect Will, from the burning of this World, will be completed in us but only in those that go to Heaven.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I agree there is difficulty answering this situation, but unless any of us are in the business of casting out demons, then it really doesn't make any difference, does it?