Good works & a few simple Questions.

[Seabass]

Let me add something: I believe Romans 2:6-7 as it is written - eternal life will be granted based on the good works we do. But, and this is a really important "but", I believe that a believer is given the Spirit based on faith alone, and the Spirit will most assuredly produce these works. So I would affirm that if you believe, you are more or less destined to be saved (unless you entirely turn your back on the work of Spirit). So, in a certain sense, I would say the "good works" are evidence of the thing that is the real ultimate cause of salvation - faith.

But Paul still says what he says: at the final judgment, it will be the good works that are the basis for the awarding of eternal life.

I do not agree with this position for Paul said God renders unto man for man's own works and God does not render unto men for what the Holy Spirit has done to man. Each will judged according to his "own labor" (1 Cor 3:8) and God is not judging the Spirit according to the works the Spirit supposedly produces in men.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Any disciple(s) that neglects his fellow disciples that are in need are, as Christ puts it, neglecting Christ Himself and will have condemnation judged upon him for his neglect.

The neglect is signatory of them having FIRST lost their faith in Christ (assuming that we're talking about a person who once had righteous works). The neglect itself is not the reason they are unrighteous, but rather they are neglectful because of an unrighteousness--an end of faith in Christ--that preceded it.

One cannot remain righteous/saved by neglecting the need of others, that is, remain righteous by not doing good works. Therefore for those that are a Christian they then MUST do good works to maintain their righteousness/salvation for neglect will cause them to lose it.

No. You have it backwards. You have described the damnable works gospel that Paul rails against. You're saying people are declared righteous by doing righteous work. Not even remotely true.

They lost their right standing with God through a loss of faith FIRST, which then resulted in them not having the evidence of right standing with God (that is, righteous deeds) required at the Judgment in order to be saved from the wrath of God.

 

[Drew]

I do not agree with this position for Paul said God renders unto man for man's own works and God does not render unto men for what the Holy Spirit has done to man. Each will judged according to his "own labor" (1 Cor 3:8) and God is not judging the Spirit according to the works the Spirit supposedly produces in men.

Hello Seabass. First, here is 1 Corinthians 3:8 as rendered in the NASB and as set in the context of verses 5 through 9:

What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building

I believe that here Paul is simply saying that each of us plays our own special role in doing kingdom work, and that God works through each of us. If anything, this supports the argument I am putting forward: it is God at work in each of us - in the form of the Spirit as is clear from a host of other teachings - who produces good works as long as we are willing to be used in this way. You seem to not like the idea that God "judges his own work, as it were".

But either way, the following text (Romans 8: 11-13, NADB) seems clear to me: it is the Spirit that produces the works that enables us to attain eternal life (i.e. to have life given to what would otherwise be bodies destined for death):

11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 

[Drew]

They lost their right standing with God through a loss of faith FIRST, which then resulted in them not having the evidence of right standing with God (that is, righteous deeds) required at the Judgment in order to be saved from the wrath of God.

I don't necessarily disagree with your position as I read it expressed thus. Do you really mean to say that it is the absence of righteous deeds that is the "criterion" by which people get wrath in a sense that includes losing eternal life with God? If so, we may actually agree. I would agree that it is the loss of "faith" that is the fundamental cause for a downward spiral that would lead to failure to exhibit good works. But I think Paul means what he says in Romans 2 - it is the good works that will be the criterion for being awarded eternal life, granting that those good works are, in a very real sense, "evidence" of what is really the seminal reason why people can be ultimately awarded eternal life - faith.

 

[smaller]

1 Corinthians 3:
21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are your's;

 

[Seabass]

The neglect is signatory of them having FIRST lost their faith in Christ (assuming that we're talking about a person who once had righteous works). The neglect itself is not the reason they are unrighteous, but rather they are neglectful because of an unrighteousness--an end of faith in Christ--that preceded it.


No. You have it backwards. You have described the damnable works gospel that Paul rails against. You're saying people are declared righteous by doing righteous work. Not even remotely true.

They lost their right standing with God through a loss of faith FIRST, which then resulted in them not having the evidence of right standing with God (that is, righteous deeds) required at the Judgment in order to be saved from the wrath of God.

Obviously I do not agree nor does the context support your post. You are trying to separate the works from the faith when, in fact, the good works are a PART of the Christian faith. Therefore neglecting of the good works is a neglecting of the faith meaning the lack of good works is proof of unrighteousness, proof of lack of faith.......

Eph 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
God "before ordained" that Christians walk in good works meaning it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to even be a Christian if he has no good works because good works are a PART of the Christian faith. Many claim to have the Christian faith (claim faith only) but their lack of good works prove they are not really a Christian.

Lack of works = not a Christian/unrighteous

1 Jn 3:7 "But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?"

No good works = God's love does not dwell in him.

Both verses teach a lack of works is the reason God's love does not dwell in one or one is not a Christian. Faith only does not make one a Christian therefore it cannot keep one a Christian. Since faith itself is a work (1 Thess 1:3) lack of works prove lack of faith. As James said for one to prove your faith without works while James proves his faith by his works. No good works = no faith.


As far as what Paul said, look at the order of Rom 6:17,18:
1) servants of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart that from of doctrine
3) then freed from sin>>servant of righteousness


You are trying to create the impossibility of one being made righteous WITHOUT having to do any righteousness/obeying form the heart.
Yet Paul proves those in Rome were not servants of righteousness until they FIRST OBEYED righteousness/obeyed that form of doctrine.

How can one be a servant to some thing that he does not even do??? Therefore it's not possible for one to ever be a servant of righteousness when he does no righteousness at all. The follower of Luther's faith only is left grasping straws in trying to find a way to make one a servant of righteous without that person having to do any righteousness. Righteousness simply means 'right doing' and it is impossible for one to ever be right doing when he continues doing unrighteousness/wrong doing.

My signature line below 1 Jn 3:10 he that continues to not do righteousness continues to not be of God.

 

[smaller]

I find it somewhat humorous that works for salvation believers are the most condemning of others of all believers. What kind of "work" is THAT???

I suspect that if a person measures OTHERS with condemnation, they are very LIKELY to get a return of that, themselves. And perhaps this is what "works for salvation" people are showing us, that they have fallen into?

Mark 4:24
And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you:

Jesus already told us HOW HE See's our 'works."

Revelation 3:2
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Anyone who thinks they have PERFECT WORKS, I might consider somewhat religiously off, in their personal analysis of same. It is very very 'unlikely' that IMPERFECT WORKS will save anyone.

Jesus Sacrificed Himself, for ALL our IMperfections. Our Eternal Body is based only on HIS Eternal Perfection, for us:

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

 

[Seabass]

Hello Seabass. First, here is 1 Corinthians 3:8 as rendered in the NASB and as set in the context of verses 5 through 9:

What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. 8Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building

I believe that here Paul is simply saying that each of us plays our own special role in doing kingdom work, and that God works through each of us. If anything, this supports the argument I am putting forward: it is God at work in each of us - in the form of the Spirit as is clear from a host of other teachings - who produces good works as long as we are willing to be used in this way. You seem to not like the idea that God "judges his own work, as it were".

But either way, the following text (Romans 8: 11-13, NADB) seems clear to me: it is the Spirit that produces the works that enables us to attain eternal life (i.e. to have life given to what would otherwise be bodies destined for death):

11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. 12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Yes, each Christian has work to do in the kingdom of God and each one will be judged by his own labor that he does.

The responsibility to do good works is given to the Christian. The onus is not upon the Spirit to produce good works in the Christian.

So I do not agree with the idea that God judges His own work or judges the work of the Spirit but God judges your own work.

Phil 2:13 there is a sense in which God works in the Christian but from Phil 2:12 I see that God is working in those that are obeying God's will. And it is your work in obeying God or not obeying is how judgment will be rendered unto you......

Rom 2:8 "But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,"
God renders unto each man depending if that man obeyed or obeyed not the truth. So it is your work in either obeying or not obeying that determines how God will render unto you.

I do not see anything in Rom 8:11-13 that says the Spirit produces the works that enables the Christian to do good and not live after the flesh. The Spirit that Paul says dwells in you does not violate the Christians' free will for v13 says the Christian decides for himself to live after the flesh or live after the Spirit and God will render according to which one each person chooses to live. If the Christian chooses to live "by the spirit" that means the Christian chooses to live after the teachings of the Spirit found in His word, the bible. The Christian that lives by the spirit is the one who is obeying the truth. The spirit teaches one how not to live after the flesh, Eph 4:25-31

 

[JLB]

It is on this GROUND that I try to connect to every person, and to witness Jesus Christ to them. There is no difference between Jesus and Love. God IS in fact LOVE. Many people will rightfully reject the frailties of "men" in their constructs of Jesus, and see "them" for what they really are. NOT God. That does not mean that God is NOT Love, because HE IS.

Yes!! Well said.

 

[JLB]

No. You have it backwards. You have described the damnable works gospel that Paul rails against. You're saying people are declared righteous by doing righteous work. Not even remotely true.

You have it backwards, like many well meaning preachers and teachers today.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


Ask yourself these questions:

Are people who obey the Gospel righteous?

Are people who disobey the Gospel righteous?

Righteous people are people who obey...

Unrighteous people are people who disobey...


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Revelation 3:2
Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Anyone who thinks they have PERFECT WORKS, I might consider somewhat religiously off, in their personal analysis of same. It is very very 'unlikely' that IMPERFECT WORKS will save anyone.

And I'm confident that you know what wipes away the unrighteous component of our mix of righteous/unrighteous works, right? So much so that all God sees is our righteous acts of faith, not our misdeeds.

It's a very big mistake to suggest that the imperfection of no righteous works is the same in God's eyes as the imperfection of righteous and unrighteous works mixed together. But that is exactly the reasoning so many people make in the church. They figure if no one can be totally righteous in their faith anyway then not having any righteous acts of faith must look the same to God, because both are imperfect works. I'm confident that many will take comfort in that distorted thinking and will be damned on the Day of Wrath for their lack of works produced by faith, while the person who did have an imperfect record of righteous works mixed with (forgiven) unrighteous works will pass safely through.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Righteous people are people who obey...

That's what I said.
We don't do righteous things to become righteous. We do righteous things because we have been made righteous by our faith that our unrighteousness is removed through the forgiveness of sins in Christ. From that new, righteous, forgiven nature we then do righteous works--righteous works that will testify on our behalf at the Judgment that we did indeed put our faith in Christ.

 

[smaller]

And I'm confident that you know what wipes away the unrighteous component of our mix of righteous/unrighteous works, right? So much so that all God sees is our righteous acts of faith, not our misdeeds.

It's a very big mistake to suggest that the imperfection of no righteous works is the same in God's eyes as the imperfection of righteous and unrighteous works mixed together. But that is exactly the reasoning so many people make in the church. They figure if no one can be totally righteous in their faith anyway then not having any righteous acts of faith must look the same to God, because both are imperfect works. I'm confident that many will take comfort in that distorted thinking and will be damned on the Day of Wrath for their lack of works produced by faith, while the person who did have an imperfect record of righteous works mixed with (forgiven) unrighteous works will pass safely through.

Luke 17:
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Luke 17:
10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Many people think that since a person with no righteous works has no bragging rights, and a person with a mix of righteous/unrighteous works also has no bragging rights that they must be equally acceptable in God's sight. Not even remotely true. The latter has his unrighteousness forgiven.......as evidenced by the righteous acts he does have. In fact, his righteous acts are all that God sees. His unrighteous acts, or lack thereof, have been forgiven.

 

[smaller]

Many people think that since a person with no righteous works has no bragging rights, and a person with a mix of righteous/unrighteous works also has no bragging rights that they must be equally acceptable in God's sight. Not even remotely true. The latter has his unrighteousness forgiven.......as evidenced by the righteous acts he does have. In fact, his righteous acts are all that God sees. His unrighteous acts, or lack thereof, have been forgiven.

If we are forgiven, then our obligations to do likewise seem obvious enough. Why then on the basis of works do you find potential condemnation? We can see that providing a cup of cold water has a reward that will not be lost. Is that not enough for YOU?

Matthew 10:42
And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We can see that providing a cup of cold water has a reward that will not be lost. Is that not enough for YOU?

Matthew 10:42
And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

No good deed by the righteous will be forgotten.

And in regard to what we've been talking about......some how this is supposed to be viewed in the eyes of God exactly the same as the person with NO righteous works, because as you say, both are imperfect works?

 

[smaller]

No good deed by the righteous will be forgotten.

And in regard to what we've been talking about......some how this is supposed to be viewed in the eyes of God exactly the same as the person with NO righteous works, because as you say, both are imperfect works?

Some christian sects recognize that God in Christ can NOT be against anyone doing good. James 2:14

Some say such works are meaningless as to "eternal rewards." 2 Tim. 1:9

It would be disingenuous to think that there is a single person who hasn't done at least one good thing in their lives. Therefore, if anyone wants to make salvation based on good works, it would seem that any good work is sufficient for salvation. This of course will never be enough for the religiously inclined. The basis of "their works" sights is only unto potential condemnation for not doing "whatever" their positions mark out. That is what is at the bottom line of most in this arena. They use works to justify themselves, and really, to potentially condemn other believers, which is ALSO a work, in the opposition to Christ, sense. John 5:24

IF we observe the "fruit of the Spirit" we will find a LOT of people operate therein, even without religious branding:

Gal. 5:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Some christian sects recognize that God in Christ can NOT be against anyone doing good. James 2:14

Assuming you're talking about works of faith, I've never heard of a sect that does.

It would be disingenuous to think that there is a single person who hasn't done at least one good thing in their lives.

Now you can see why John is talking about a lifestyle of righteousness vs. lifestyle of unrighteousness in 1 John 3:9 NASB. It's impossible to look at it legalistically as you are doing.

Therefore, if anyone wants to make salvation based on good works, it would seem that any good work is sufficient for salvation.

You're missing a very important point.
We all know even atheists and unbelievers do good things at various times. What non-Christians will not do is love the body of Christ.

"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. " (1 John 5:1 NASB)

Love for Christ and the church is the signifying work of the born again person, not just any ol' good works. And that is exactly what Christ is measuring at the Judgment when he says what you did, or didn't do, was done, or not done, unto him.

They use works to justify themselves

See, I really am a prophet!
Did I not predict that the argument that works are the measuring rod of justifying/saving faith would be continued to heard as an argument that works justify a person? Yes. I did.

Of course, I'm not a prophet. I've just seen this blind inability to not be able to even comprehend, let alone believe, arguments leveled against the hardened indoctrinations gripping the church at this present time in history so many times that it's become a very predictable feature of these kinds of discussions.

and really, to potentially condemn other believers,

You say that as if there is absolutely no Biblical basis upon which a person has the right and privilege to decide if someone else is a Christian or not.

IF we observe the "fruit of the Spirit" we will find a LOT of people operate therein, even without religious branding:

As I pointed out, not towards the body of Christ--the thing that counts.

 

[smaller]

Assuming you're talking about works of faith, I've never heard of a sect that does.

There is a lot of Jesus paint flying around the world that perhaps ain't much of Jesus. Mormons for example, doing good works. Are they works of faith? In their eyes, yes. I might say that the good works are fine by anyone, but perhaps no one has a 100% clean, clearcut and Perfect box for Jesus and there are probably more bad boxes than good ones.

Now you can see why John is talking about a lifestyle of righteousness vs. lifestyle of unrighteousness in 1 John 3:9 NASB. It's impossible to look at legalistically as you are doing.

No one is sinless Jethro, and that's all there is to this side of the coin.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Every believer should understand that the scripture has made this conclusion, and why then it is that we are not saved by works or lifestyle. By NOT being an "external slave" of sin only means we keep our sin in checkmate, by ruling and reigning over it. NOT that we become or became sinless:

Romans 6:12
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

This very real contrary position remains with every believer, and therefore the lust in the flesh is NEVER justified, nor can it be justified by external works. This internal contention remains within every believer:

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Fulfillment is the external actions of the lusts of the flesh. It does not say we won't have same to contend with.

Nor will any "external actions" justify or eradicate the lusts of the flesh.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

You're missing a very important point.
We all know even atheists and unbelievers do good things at various times. What non-Christians will not do is love the body of Christ.

In sight of the above, no one will be justified by the flesh nor will there be any justification of the flesh, with the factual the lusts therein.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Paul explains a very important principle to understand. Indwelling sin in the flesh is adverse to Gods Laws and always will be adverse to Gods Laws and WILL work conversely, AGAINST Gods Law's, within. Therein is the source of LUST in the flesh, which will not be justified by "external works" in anyone.

Every work we do will be no different than it was with Paul, with "evil present" with us. Romans 7:21. This evil is courtesy of the lusts in the flesh, brought about by adverse workings against Gods Laws. Romans 7:7-13 Flesh with indwelling sin, which is the factual state of all of us will not change it's stripes for ANY person, believer or unbeliever.

Of course I'm not a prophet. I've just seen this blind inability to not be able to even comprehend, let alone believe, arguments leveled against the hardened indoctrinations gripping the church at this present time in history so many times that it's become very predictable.

Any "christian" sect that says the flesh with indwelling sin will be justified and sinless by external obedience doesn't have a clue what they are talking about. We do good regardless of our sin, not because we are sinless. 1 John 1:8

You say that as if there is absolutely no Biblical basis upon which a person has the right and privilege to decide if someone else is a Christian or not.

My bar is set to the lowest point that I can see, in order for "me" personally NOT to fall into condemnation of other believers, and I do this for my own "internal protection" to not be made into a slave of condemnation. This is the bar that Paul provides, IF one is not a slave to condemnation:

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This, I believe, is TRUE. IF this IS True, THEN this is ALSO True:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Hath and is passed are done deals that are secured NOT by the person, but by Our Savior, Jesus Christ. There is no justification of any of us, in the flesh with the lusts therein and thereof, regardless.

All who have faith in Christ and have called upon Him will pass out of and away from our vile body as His Divine Guarantee.

It is those who try to justify the vile body, who have presently fallen back from faith and have fallen HEADLONG into both potential or outright condemnation of themselves or other believers, and hypocrisy applied to their own vile flesh in which dwells sin and the attendant lusts therein. And they are only fooling themselves and covering up the obvious.

I say they'll be saved regardless of that present blindness, and were so, per Jesus Words above and Paul's affirmations of same.

 

[JLB]

That's what I said.
We don't do righteous things to become righteous. We do righteous things because we have been made righteous by our faith that our unrighteousness is removed through the forgiveness of sins in Christ. From that new, righteous, forgiven nature we then do righteous works--righteous works that will testify on our behalf at the Judgment that we did indeed put our faith in Christ.

We have the righteousness of Christ, because we do the righteous act of obeying the Gospel.

• If we have a new forgiven nature and we practice unrighteous works of the flesh then we are not righteous.

• We must do the righteous act of asking for forgiveness from our unrighteous act, in order to be cleansed of unrighteousness.

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:9

• Only the action of righteousness makes us righteous.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7


JLB