Good works & a few simple Questions.

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Many many years ago, I read Jesus' Words, here:

John 8:39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

And there, at His Call, I began to "trace" the steps of the father of faith, our faith, Abraham. I trailed every step he took, every move he made, every action, I observed, and continue to trace. There is ALWAYS more to see, to observe, to enter into, just as Abraham did. Every place he stopped, I examined from the Hebrew root words for their "real" meanings. And also with Abraham's sons, Isaac and Jacob.

It is with these men of faith that great Spiritual Treasures are held, and revealed. What I might term, the basics of faith in Christ. Paul himself was also led to make this same journey, by the Revelation of God in Christ, working with Paul, showing him those things.

Abraham had two sons, one of the flesh, Ishmael, and one of the promise, Isaac. In Galatians 4, Paul unveils this matter of the flesh, the external showing of these two sons, and lays that understanding on every believer. What was shown with Ishmael and Isaac is an "external picture." But the reality of this picture is found here, with each of us:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

To say we do not have this struggle, this present contrariness, is a lie. It makes a believer a hypocrite, when they try to justify ISHMAEL, their own son of the flesh. And, likewise, when Ishmael tries to CONDEMN the son of Promise, he is also showing his contempt.

This IS a real conflict for every believer, personally. We, in essence, carry in our own flesh, our contrariness, our contentions.

Abraham himself had this same conflict. He knew this. It was what God showed him, in his own two sons. But it was really the 'state' and 'condition' of Abraham, personally as well. In this LIGHT, Abraham saw himself, deadly accurately. And stood where any person of faith will be led to stand:

Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

Does that sound like the voice of a man trying to JUSTIFY himself? Uh, no. But it is the ground of FAITH, and honest speech, from our father of faith. Deadly honest as it might sound.

Nevertheless, it was from this ground that Abraham received, also, the son of promise. Again, an external picture with Isaac, but a spiritual picture, an ALLEGORY if you will, of what was to come with The Son of Promise, Jesus. Isaac himself, in tracing out his steps, you will find that he also had TWO SONS. One of the flesh, Esau, and one of the promise, Jacob. This is nearly an identical picture of what happened with Abraham in his two sons, one of the flesh, and one of the promise. God did NOT select Ishmael to inherit from Abraham, but Isaac. God did NOT select Esau to inherit, but Jacob. In and with both of these sons, Ishmael and Esau, God expresses His REJECTION.

So it is with every one of us as well. No son of the flesh will inherit and we ALL have this contention and contender.

When we see Jacob in this matter, it is a MARVEL. A literal MIRACLE transpires in Jacob essentially STEALING his inheritance. Follow this line of TRUTH and you also will be BLESSED.

Jacob came before his own father, his father of promise, as A THIEF and A LIAR, and was BLESSED.

In Jacob, we see the real person of faith, who come before our Father, HONESTLY, bearing their contentions, in their own flesh.

It is upon this ground, that GOD BLESSES with His Knowledge and His Wisdom.

When Jacob was carried down, into Egypt, by the DIVINE ACTIONS of famine in his own land, and abode there, and Joseph brought his TWO SONS before Jacob, to bless them, Jacob, NOW named ISRAEL, in His, Gods Beautiful Wisdom, did thusly with the TWO SONS of Joseph:

Genesis 48:14
And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.

In this matter we see the TRUE DIVINE INTENTIONS of the LAYING ON OF HANDS.

And this is a personal matter, for every believer in Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Abraham was right with God, because he obeyed God's Voice.

It was Abraham's obedience, the obedience of faith [his choice to do the right thing,] to get out of his father's house, and go to the land... in response to God's Voice to do so, whereby he fulfilled the condition of the promise.

Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
...So they came to the land of Canaan.Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land.
Genesis 12:1-4,7

It wasn't that Abraham worked as a man "works" in exchange for wages, but rather Abraham obeyed what God told him to do, by getting out of his father's house and going to the land that God showed him, in which he met the condition of the promise... as God said To your descendants I will give this land.

At this point was right with God, because believed and showed God that he believed by obeying.
Abraham was still in the process of faith, and was still continuing to believe, and continued to be obedient...


Abram dwelt in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelt in the cities of the plain and pitched his tent even as far as Sodom.
But the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord.
And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are--northward, southward, eastward, and westward; for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.
And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you." Then Abram moved his tent, and went and dwelt by the terebinth trees of Mamre, which are in Hebron, and built an altar there to the Lord. Genesis 13:12-13

Abraham continues to believe, and continues to obey... waiting for the promise to be fulfilled.

God continues to fulfill His promise - I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;

Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.
And he blessed him and said: "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;
And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." And he gave him a tithe of all.
Now the king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the persons, and take the goods for yourself."
But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have raised my hand to the Lord, God Most High, the Possessor of heaven and earth,

that I will take nothing, from a thread to a sandal strap, and that I will not take anything that is yours, lest you should say, 'I have made Abram rich'-- Genesis 14:18-23

Abraham continues in his faithfulness to God, to serve Him and believe in Him


1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward."
2 But Abram said, "Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
3 Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!"
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:1-6


What you are trying to teach is:
This is the very first time that Abraham believed God, and all Abraham did was believe in his heart with no action of obedience, and therefore God accredited to him as righteousness.


Abraham showed he believed God, when he left his father's house and went to the land, that God showed him, by faith, and walked in the righteousness that is by faith.

The action of obedience was working together, with his faith, and therefore faith was completed through the action of obedience.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

Abraham continued to believe and continued to obey, throughout his life to the end, and God declared to his son...

And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:4-5


JLB

We know what you think James means when he says a person is justified by what they do (James 2:24 NASB). What you have to do is prove that Paul said the same thing. You have to show us where Paul agrees with James and said a person is justified (MADE righteous) by the obedience that comes from faith. I see where Paul said the faith itself is what makes a man righteous before God, not the obedience that stems from faith.

So, no more long posts about what you think James is saying--that a man is made righteous by what he does. We know what you think about that. Show us Paul said the same thing.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Many many years ago, I read Jesus' Words, here:

John 8:39
They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

And there, at His Call, I began to "trace" the steps of the father of faith, our faith, Abraham. I trailed every step he took, every move he made, every action, I observed, and continue to trace. There is ALWAYS more to see, to observe, to enter into, just as Abraham did. Every place he stopped, I examined from the Hebrew root words for their "real" meanings. And also with Abraham's sons, Isaac and Jacob.

It is with these men of faith that great Spiritual Treasures are held, and revealed. What I might term, the basics of faith in Christ. Paul himself was also led to make this same journey, by the Revelation of God in Christ, working with Paul, showing him those things.

Abraham had two sons, one of the flesh, Ishmael, and one of the promise, Isaac. In Galatians 4, Paul unveils this matter of the flesh, the external showing of these two sons, and lays that understanding on every believer. What was shown with Ishmael and Isaac is an "external picture." But the reality of this picture is found here, with each of us:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

To say we do not have this struggle, this present contrariness, is a lie. It makes a believer a hypocrite, when they try to justify ISHMAEL, their own son of the flesh. And, likewise, when Ishmael tries to CONDEMN the son of Promise, he is also showing his contempt.

This IS a real conflict for every believer, personally. We, in essence, carry in our own flesh, our contrariness, our contentions.

Abraham himself had this same conflict. He knew this. It was what God showed him, in his own two sons. But it was really the 'state' and 'condition' of Abraham, personally as well. In this LIGHT, Abraham saw himself, deadly accurately. And stood where any person of faith will be led to stand:

Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

Does that sound like the voice of a man trying to JUSTIFY himself? Uh, no. But it is the ground of FAITH, and honest speech, from our father of faith. Deadly honest as it might sound.

Nevertheless, it was from this ground that Abraham received, also, the son of promise. Again, an external picture with Isaac, but a spiritual picture, an ALLEGORY if you will, of what was to come with The Son of Promise, Jesus. Isaac himself, in tracing out his steps, you will find that he also had TWO SONS. One of the flesh, Esau, and one of the promise, Jacob. This is nearly an identical picture of what happened with Abraham in his two sons, one of the flesh, and one of the promise. God did NOT select Ishmael to inherit from Abraham, but Isaac. God did NOT select Esau to inherit, but Jacob. In and with both of these sons, Ishmael and Esau, God expresses His REJECTION.

So it is with every one of us as well. No son of the flesh will inherit and we ALL have this contention and contender.

When we see Jacob in this matter, it is a MARVEL. A literal MIRACLE transpires in Jacob essentially STEALING his inheritance. Follow this line of TRUTH and you also will be BLESSED.

Jacob came before his own father, his father of promise, as A THIEF and A LIAR, and was BLESSED.

In Jacob, we see the real person of faith, who come before our Father, HONESTLY, bearing their contentions, in their own flesh.

It is upon this ground, that GOD BLESSES with His Knowledge and His Wisdom.

When Jacob was carried down, into Egypt, by the DIVINE ACTIONS of famine in his own land, and abode there, and Joseph brought his TWO SONS before Jacob, to bless them, Jacob, NOW named ISRAEL, in His, Gods Beautiful Wisdom, did thusly with the TWO SONS of Joseph:

Genesis 48:14
And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.

In this matter we see the TRUE DIVINE INTENTIONS of the LAYING ON OF HANDS.

And this is a personal matter, for every believer in Jesus Christ our Lord.

I think you're misunderstanding what the man born first by the word of God actually represents. He is a man of sin in that he tries to realize the promise of God through the natural effort and expectation of the power of the flesh--which leaves him fast in his sin nature, not liberated to the new nature of the promise. He signifies the error of the Isrealites who sought the promise by works, not faith:

"31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why *? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works." (Romans 10:31-32 NASB)

When Jesus came he explained how a person has to be born again--later, after the first birth into the kingdom. Simply being a child of God by virtue of identification and association with God and Israel is not enough to see the kingdom. "You must be born again" (John 3:7 NASB).

 

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I think you're misunderstanding what the man born first by the word of God actually represents. He is a man of sin in that he tries to realize the promise of God through the natural effort and expectation of the power of the flesh--which leaves him fast in his sin nature, not liberated to the new nature of the promise. He signifies the error of the Isrealites who sought the promise by works, not faith:

"31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why *? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works." (Romans 10:31-32 NASB)

When Jesus came he explained how a person has to be born again--later, after the first birth into the kingdom. Simply being a child of God by virtue of identification and association with God and Israel is not enough to see the kingdom. "You must be born again" (John 3:7 NASB).

Uh, well, perhaps we are on such a different path of sights it's, uh, well, I'll stick with Abraham's sights of himself, for myself, just for good measures, as he obviously resided entirely in Gods Grace.

Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

For some odd reason that just does not sound like a guy trying to justify himself before His Maker.

Abraham had two sons, both of which Abraham carried, himself, one of which was not "chosen" but rejected. This is not a picture of Abraham's external flesh sons, but of Abraham, himself, just as Paul noted here:


Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Trying to say we don't have the contention puts us out of truth. Trying to justify the entirety of ourselves, fruitless. We all have RED to deal with, not to justify by coverups.

But you see, the son of the flesh will never concede to his demise. It can't happen, and will RESIST The Oracles of God in Christ. On cue, even. Like a resisting puppet.

Galatians 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

This is not talking about "us" as opposed to some other person(s) but US.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Uh, well, perhaps we are on such a different path of sights it's, uh, well, I'll stick with Abraham's sights of himself, for myself, just for good measures, as he obviously resided entirely in Gods Grace.

Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

For some odd reason that just does not sound like a guy trying to justify himself before His Maker.

Abraham had two sons, both of which Abraham carried, himself, one of which was not "chosen" but rejected. This is not a picture of Abraham's external flesh sons, but of Abraham, himself, just as Paul noted here:


Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Trying to say we don't have the contention puts us out of truth. Trying to justify the entirety of ourselves, fruitless. We all have RED to deal with, not to justify by coverups.

But you see, the son of the flesh will never concede to his demise. It can't happen, and will RESIST The Oracles of God in Christ. On cue, even. Like a resisting puppet.

Galatians 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

This is not talking about "us" as opposed to some other person(s) but US.

That's fine if you want to again lament the reality of the sin nature that we all struggle with in this life. But you are in error if you are going to suggest that sin nature was conceived in us when we heard the word of promise, as illustrated (so you say) by the sons given to Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, and Tamar. The presence of our Adamic sin nature is not what those stories illustrate. They illustrate the man of works within us--you know, the natural man within us who thinks we inherit the blessing through the work of our hands, as opposed to the promise of God.

The most obvious explanation of this meaning is in Galatians 4:24 where Paul says Hagar and Sarah signify covenants. The child of the first covenant, Hagar, is born first. Though he is born first he does not inherit the promised blessing, which is against all natural expectation for the child born first. He represents the child born in us first when we hear about the promise of God, the man of works.

The illustration is useful and applicable because we normally expect the first born child to inherit the family blessing. And so it is also our natural and normal expectation that the man of works birthed is us first in response to the gospel receives the inheritance. But in the kingdom it is the man born second, the man of faith, he is the one who inherits the blessing, against all natural hope and expectation we had for the man born first, the man of works. The man of works is only connected to sin in that he is never liberated from the bondage of sin. And I think that is where you deviate incorrectly from what the Bible is trying to teach us in these illustrations.

Each one of us has to come to this realization sooner or later in our walk with God that the one born in us first in response to the word of God--the man of works--is not going to inherit anything for us. For me personally, that man of works has been dead and gone in my life for a very, very long time. He is not someone who struggles with the man of faith inside of me anymore like the twins, the 'nations' of people struggled with each other in Rebekah's womb (Genesis 25:23 NASB). Just as God said, the younger is stronger than the older and rules over him.

 

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That's fine if you want to again lament the reality of the sin nature that we all struggle with in this life.

Well, bravo. That's probably the first time in years that I've actually heard you even mention that you may remotely have a struggle, even though as a "we" conveyance. I have no issues stepping into the lead that Paul gave in these matters, personally. Yes, I, and everyone else on the entire planet earth, does have sin as a present tense occupation of the flesh. 1 John 1:8, Gal. 3:22, Romans 3:23 and many many others.

This IS The Foundation of the Gospel, and WHY God Has Provided our Savior. And not as a "one time deal" of lip service, but as a Perpetual Need of Him, His Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness and daily, even minute by minute Guidance through our present very troubled waters.

But you are in error if you are going to suggest that sin nature was conceived in us when we heard the word of promise, as illustrated (so you say) by the sons given to Abraham, Isaac, Joseph, and Tamar.

Don't recall writing about Tamar for quite awhile, but yes, there also are some solid scriptural conveyances of the Power of God towards sin, how it came to be, how it operates, and how to make war against adversity.

The sin nature was not "conceived" in us when we heard anything of the Gospel. Sin, evil and death has been a universal occupation of the flesh of mankind from the beginning of mankind, and of creation itself. These matters are all and entirely of God. I respect how His Construct was made and how it operates, under Him. These are not hap hazard matters or accidental coalitions of random chance performed by freewill agents that transpire apart from His Divine Will.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The presence of our Adamic sin nature is not what those stories illustrate. They illustrate the man of works within us--you know, the natural man within us who thinks we inherit the blessing through the work of our hands, as opposed to the promise of God.

They are not stories, but real accounts of real men and women of faith who engaged and interacted with A Real God. And there are a lot of things shown in the O.T., ALL meant to provide us insights into Gods Ways. His Ways are sure, and still operate and transpire today, just as they did then.

Romans 15:8
Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

The most obvious explanation of this meaning is in Galatians 4:24 where Paul says Hagar and Sarah signify covenants. The child of the first covenant, Hagar, is born first. Though he is born first he does not inherit the promised blessing, which is against all natural expectation for the child born first. He represents the child born in us first when we hear about the promise of God, the man of works.

There are two covenants, both in full operation. A covenant of bondage and a Covenant of Freedom.

One of those covenants is adverse and contains adverse powers and adverse promises.

Gal. 4:
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants;

Paul derived his Revelation understanding of these Two Covenants directly from the lives of Abraham, Sarah, Hagar, Ishmael, Isaac and the law, and lays the entirety of these covenants upon each of us, in this manner:

Gal. 4:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

By extension, today, even so it is now. And in that, all that is born after the flesh will remain adverse to God in Christ, and will not inherit. The adversity is real, and is carried in all of us in the form of indwelling sin, in the flesh, which same is in fact demonic. Romans 7:17-21, 1 John 3:8. Gods hard line Law covenant works adversely, against sin, to empower it and to make it utterly sinful. Romans 7:7-13, 1 Cor. 15:56. Paul laid, directly, upon his own flesh, this reality for himself in 1 Tim. 1:15, showing that this covenant operated "against" him, and made him the chief of sinners, after salvation, upon which is laid the bed of unmerited Grace and Divine Mercy.

Just as Ishmael would not inherit, neither will sinful flesh.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Well, bravo. That's probably the first time in years that I've actually heard you even mention that you may remotely have a struggle, even though as a "we" conveyance.

Not even remotely true. I'm confident you just perceive me that way.
I share my struggle in these forums.

The sin nature was not "conceived" in us when we heard anything of the Gospel.

Right. But you are incorrectly using the illustrations of the various sons in the Bible (i.e. Galatians 4:24 NASB) as if it was. That's the point I'm trying to make to you.

 

[smaller]

Not even remotely true. I'm confident you just perceive me that way.
I share my struggle in these forums.

Right. But you are incorrectly using the illustrations of the various sons in the Bible (i.e. Galatians 4:24 NASB) as if it was. That's the point I'm trying to make to you.

If that is what you are hearing, I'd suggest that the hearing was false. Ishmael and Isaac are pictures of us, each, as to our construction. It has nothing, literally nothing to do with Ishmael and Isaac as "individual people" as the conveyances are allegorical.

We are provided "external pictures" of "internal realities" with these characters and their actions, from the O.T. Not just with the parties in question in Galatians, 4, but in all of the accounts, there are contained physical showings of spiritual allegories.

Galatians 4:24
Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

God's Language is Allegory, Parable and Similitude.

Hosea 12:10
I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.

Luke 8:11
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

We should know well enough by now, that The Seed Is The Word of God, and in fact is Christ. Jesus is not a literal seed but is "likened" to same.

Jesus was given and fulfilled in Himself, the reception of 'The Land' promised to the fathers, which IS HIS GLORIFIED BODY.

This is also the Seed of Promise, that is contained in us all. In my examinations of scripture, I largely account the conditions of the present planting of this, His Seed, in us. In this planting we find that it is sown in corruption, weakness, dishonor, death, and the workings of the adversary. 1 Cor. 15 43-49, Mark 4;15, etc.

Where we are to revel here, is in our weakness and infirmities, in the LIGHT of His Promises. 2 Cor. 12:9-10, and in this call comes more light for our Seed, from our Seed, to emerge from our present darkness. We don't get more light by claiming how great and enlightened and supposedly 'sinless' our factual darkness presently is. We are all in currently and assuredly, by Divine Promises and facts, abide in weakness, dishonor and corruption. These are the conditions of planting for the needs of His Mercy ground. When we see our needs and conditions, we know, and I might add, experience, His Mercy.

God's Will is to have and to experience His Mercy poured upon us. And it is God who has placed us in positions, very adverse, for needs for same. IF a man has no basis for receipt, they have no need for His Divine Things. These are still blinded by their conditions, deceived by them, even.

Isaiah 49:13
Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted.

 

[Drew]

So, no more long posts about what you think James is saying--that a man is made righteous by what he does. We know what you think about that. Show us Paul said the same thing.

Paul wrote these words:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

How is this not a clear declaration that the basis - the "according to" - for receiving eternal life is how we have actually lived?

 

[Seabass]

I find it somewhat humorous that works for salvation believers are the most condemning of others of all believers. What kind of "work" is THAT???

Jesus requires the obedient works of believing, repenting confession and baptism to be saved and Jesus condemns those that do not do these works. For those that do not do the works of believing and repenting shall perish Jn 3:16; Lk 13:3,5 those that do not do the work of confession will be denied, Matt 10:32,33 those that do not do the work of submitting to baptism will be condemned Mk 16:16.
I do not find Jesus' condemnation humorous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul wrote these words:

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

How is this not a clear declaration that the basis - the "according to" - for receiving eternal life is how we have actually lived?

Drew, Drew, Drew. I know our works are the basis upon which God will measure our faith on the Day of Wrath. What I'm asking for is where Paul says what James (supposedly) says, that our obedience is what MAKES us righteous before God. I know where James says our obedience SHOWS us to be righteous, and I know where Paul says that too (Romans 2:13 NASB). But I do not see where either one of them says, Paul particularly, that our obedience MAKES us righteous in God's sight. That is the point being addressed.

 

[smaller]

Jesus requires the obedient works of believing, repenting confession and baptism to be saved and Jesus condemns those that do not do these works.

Jesus condemns sin in sinful flesh in whomever it is found, and sin is found in all flesh. No amount of baptism or any other exercises of faith make the flesh of anyone sinless. Nor does, by acting good or doing good works make anyone sinless. 1 John 1:8 shows us that we can not and are not even in truth if we say we have no sin. The condemnation you might lay on others for sin, you also lay upon yourself. Romans 2:1.

For those that do not do the works of believing and repenting shall perish Jn 3:16; Lk 13:3,5 those that do not do the work of confession will be denied, Matt 10:32,33 those that do not do the work of submitting to baptism will be condemned Mk 16:16.
I do not find Jesus' condemnation humorous.

As many times as you make that claim, I will like wise cite, and stand by Jesus' Own Words, here:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Whatever exercises transpire from that point, if the intention is to bring the above into condemnation for not doing so, is not of God in Christ because it is in conflict with Gods Own Words.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jesus requires the obedient works of believing, repenting confession and baptism to be saved and Jesus condemns those that do not do these works. For those that do not do the works of believing and repenting shall perish Jn 3:16; Lk 13:3,5 those that do not do the work of confession will be denied, Matt 10:32,33 those that do not do the work of submitting to baptism will be condemned Mk 16:16.

But NONE of those things MAKES us righteous before God. Faith all by itself does that. Trust in Christ, all by itself, secures Christ's righteousness (Romans 4:5 NASB). All the things you listed can only SHOW us to have believed and trusted in God's promise of righteousness through Christ. But as James teaches, it is indeed necessary for us to be justified by works to be saved on the Day of Wrath (James 2:14 NASB). Not justified as in to be made righteous, but justified as in to be shown to have been made righteous through faith in Christ. .

The word 'justified' is used to describe both being MADE righteous before God, and being SHOWN to have that righteousness. This is the truth that so many in the church do not understand, and because they do not understand they create various (false) explanations to reconcile the apparent contradiction between James' justification (James 2:24 NASB) and Paul's justification (Romans 3:28 NASB). A contradiction that does not exist when you recognize that 'justified' is being used by them in regard to two distinct Biblical meanings.

 

[Drew]

Drew, Drew, Drew. I know our works are the basis upon which God will measure our faith on the Day of Wrath. What I'm asking for is where Paul says what James (supposedly) says, that our obedience is what MAKES us righteous before God. I know where James says our obedience SHOWS us to be righteous, and I know where Paul says that too (Romans 2:13 NASB). But I do not see where either one of them says, Paul particularly, that our obedience MAKES us righteous in God's sight. That is the point being addressed.

I think the way you express the basis of our justification may not adequately represent the nuances of Paul's vision, although I would concede that it is very difficult to concisely express Paul's model for justification. I certainly agree that it is profession of faith that effectively "seals the deal" with respect to the matter of final justification - if you profess faith you are but certain to end up justified at the end. But I still think Paul is clear that the basis of justification - the thing that gets examined as the deciding criterion - is how we have lived. To be fair to you, this really does seem to cash out to the view that the good works are the evidence of what really saves us - faith - and I think you would affirm this. It may be a bit of a technicality since I think we both see faith as what really "causes" us to be ultimately justified. But Paul is, in my view, clear that the "criterion" for the awarding of eternal life is the works. As I write this, I suspect we are very close on this, and the differences may be inconsequential, for all practical purposes.

 

[Seabass]

But NONE of those things MAKES us righteous before God. Faith all by itself does that. Trust in Christ, all by itself, secures Christ's righteousness (Romans 4:5 NASB). All the things you listed can only SHOW us to have believed and trusted in God's promise of righteousness through Christ. But as James teaches, it is indeed necessary for us to be justified by works to be saved on the Day of Wrath (James 2:14 NASB). Not justified as in to be made righteous, but justified as in to be shown to have been made righteous through faith in Christ. .

The word 'justified' is used to describe both being MADE righteous before God, and being SHOWN to have that righteousness. This is the truth that so many in the church do not understand, and because they do not understand they create various (false) explanations to reconcile the apparent contradiction between James' justification (James 2:24 NASB) and Paul's justification (Romans 3:28 NASB). A contradiction that does not exist when you recognize that 'justified' is being used by them in regard to two distinct Biblical meanings.

Believing, repenting, confession and submitting to baptism are the VERY things that makes one righteous before God. God said to do those things to be saved and those that do these things are working God's righteousness and (Acts 10:35) them that worketh righteousness are accepted with God. A saving faith includes repentance confession and baptism and is dead without them. No verse say "faith only" makes one righteous before God.
Can a person remaining in unbelief be righteous before God in his unbelief? No
Can an impenitent person who remains impenitent about his sins be righteous before God? No.
Can the one who continues to deny Christ be righteous before God? No
Can the one who will not accept the gospel in baptism be righteous before God? No.

Therefore doing these things are necessary for one to be righteous before God.

Again, in Rom 6:17,18 the order of events:
1) servants of unrighteousness
2) obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine
3) then freed from sin/justified

It was the obeying from the heart that led to their being justified/freed from sin.

It is IMPOSSIBLE for one to be made righteous how has never done any righteousness. Those in Rome that Paul wrote to became servants of righteousness for they first did righteousness/obeyed from the heart. No one can be a servant to some thing they do not do,,,one cannot be a servant to cigarette smoking when he does not smoke, likewise one can never become a servant of righteousness when he does not do any righteousness.


Rom 5:1----------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justifies
James 2:24----------works>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>justified

Since there is just one way to be saved/justified then faith MUST be a work, a work that justifies. Therefore a working faith that has the works of repentance confession and baptism will justify. Not a single verse anywhere says 'doing nothing' justifies.


So both Paul in Rom 6:17,18 and James in James 2 both declare one is justified by works/obeying from the heart, so there is no contradiction between the two.

In Rom 3:28 Paul is saying no one can be justified by deeds of the law, the law being the law of Moses. Yet Paul clearly states in Rom 6:17,18 one is justified/freed from sin by obeying from the heart that form of doctrine with that form of doctrine that frees from sin being NT water baptism and not faith only.

Paul would never declare one is justified by obedient works in Rom 6:17,18 then contradict that in Rom 3 or Rom 4. Again in Rom 3:28 Paul is saying one is not justified by the works of the law of Moses and in Rom 4:4 Paul is saying one is not justified by flawless law keeping that was required under the OT law to be completely justified before God.

 

[Seabass]

Jesus condemns sin in sinful flesh in whomever it is found, and sin is found in all flesh. No amount of baptism or any other exercises of faith make the flesh of anyone sinless. Nor does, by acting good or doing good works make anyone sinless. 1 John 1:8 shows us that we can not and are not even in truth if we say we have no sin. The condemnation you might lay on others for sin, you also lay upon yourself. Romans 2:1.



As many times as you make that claim, I will like wise cite, and stand by Jesus' Own Words, here:

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Whatever exercises transpire from that point, if the intention is to bring the above into condemnation for not doing so, is not of God in Christ because it is in conflict with Gods Own Words.

I agree Jesus condemns those that live in sin. Yet as I already shown in my last post to you, Jesus also condemns those that do not believe repent, confess or submit to baptism. Therefore that means not believing, not repenting, not confessing Christ, not submitting to baptism are sins that Jesus condemns.

 

[smaller]

I agree Jesus condemns those that live in sin.

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Nobody dodged or dodges this conclusion, of having sin indwelling their flesh. If Paul the Apostle, had sin indwelling his flesh, then likewise, so do we all. Romans 7:17-20.

 

[Seabass]

Romans 8:3
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Nobody dodged or dodges this conclusion, of having sin indwelling their flesh. If Paul the Apostle, had sin indwelling his flesh, then likewise, so do we all. Romans 7:17-20.

Paul said he was dead to sin, Rom 6:7-14.
Those that have not believed, repented, confess, submitted to baptism have sin living in them.

 

[smaller]

Paul ruled and reigned over the sin that indwelt his flesh. He certainly didn't make any claims to be sinless.

Quite entirely the opposite claim was made by Paul, in 1 Tim. 1:15

 

[Seabass]

Paul said he was dead to sin, Rom 6:7-14.

Paul ruled and reigned over the sin that indwelt his flesh. He certainly didn't make any claims to be sinless.

Quite entirely the opposite claim was made by Paul, in 1 Tim. 1:15

Paul did not say he never committed any sin but did say he was dead unto sin, that sin did not dwell in Him Rom 6:7-14.

1 TIm 1:15 Paul was presently regretting his past life as a sinner yet Paul has now found mercy 1 Tim 1:16.