Good works & a few simple Questions.

[Jethro Bodine]

We have the righteousness of Christ, because we do the righteous act of obeying the Gospel.

That's called the works gospel.
Like I said, you are one of the two or so people I've known in the church that think justification (being made righteous) is by works.

We must do the righteous act of asking for forgiveness from our unrighteous act, in order to be cleansed of unrighteousness.

The forgiveness of God does the justifying--the making righteous. That is secured through believing, not doing something as a condition to be justified:

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

It does not say a person does some work (other than believing) resulting in righteousness.

Only the action of righteousness makes us righteous.

You believe in a works gospel. Plain and simple.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is those who try to justify the vile body, who have presently fallen back from faith and have fallen HEADLONG into both potential or outright condemnation of themselves or other believers, and hypocrisy applied to their own vile flesh in which dwells sin and the attendant lusts therein. And they are only fooling themselves and covering up the obvious.

What does this have to do with what I posted?????????????

If you want to continue this discussion you'll have to actually read what I posted and respond to that, not go off on this tangent.......again.

 

[smaller]

What does this have to do with what I posted?????????????

If you want to continue this discussion you'll have to actually read what I posted and respond to that, not go off on this tangent.......again.

I gave an entire set of scriptures regarding works in conjunction with the flesh never being justified, simultaneously.

All external works by anyone are done in the vile flesh body, in which there is no profit.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

1 Corinthians 1:29
That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 

[JLB]

That's called the works gospel.
Like I said, you are one of the two or so people I've known in the church that think justification (being made righteous) is by works.


The forgiveness of God does the justifying--the making righteous. That is secured through believing, not doing something as a condition to be justified:

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

It does not say a person does some work (other than believing) resulting in righteousness.



You believe in a works gospel. Plain and simple.

If you can show me where I used the word "righteous works" in my post then you may have a point.

If you can't show me where I used the word "righteous works" in my post then you are guilty of falsely judging and accusing me of something that I did not say.

Repenting is how we obey the Gospel.

We are called to repent (turn to God), and believe...

Obedience is the only way to be righteous, as faith without obedience is dead.

The righteous act of confessing our sins to God, is how we are cleansed of unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

It is this righteous action of confessing our sin with our mouth, to God, that we are cleansed of our unrighteousness.

Yet you say I'm advocating a works Gospel.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I gave an entire set of scriptures regarding works in conjunction with the flesh never being justified, simultaneously.

All external works by anyone are done in the vile flesh body, in which there is no profit.

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Romans 13:14
But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

1 Corinthians 1:29
That no flesh should glory in his presence.

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Can you connect this in some way to what we were actually talking about?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you can show me where I used the word "righteous works" in my post then you may have a point.

Obedience/ righteous works, whats the difference?
I don't see Paul saying either one (as if there's a difference) makes a person righteous. I see him saying believing does that:

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

If you can't show me where I used the word "righteous works" in my post then you are guilty of falsely judging and accusing me of something that I did not say.

Just because you think there's a difference between the 'obedience' and 'righteous works' doesn't mean I do. When I say 'righteous works' that means 'obedience'. So put your gun back in your holster.

 

[JLB]

Obedience/ righteous works, whats the difference?
I don't see Paul saying either one (as if there's a difference) makes a person righteous. I see him saying believing does that:

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)




Just because you think there's a difference between the 'obedience' and 'righteous works' doesn't mean I do. When I say 'righteous works' that means 'obedience'. So put your gun back in your holster.

Obedience in being forgiven of your sins, requires that you confess with your mouth...

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9


Likewise this principle is seen in our initial salvation, which is the result of being forgiven of our sins.


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13


Confessing your sin, in order to be forgiven, is the righteous action of obedience.

Confessing Jesus as Lord, is the righteous action of obedience.

Forgiving another person of there sins, is a righteous action of obedience.


Are these righteous acts of obedience, words or deeds?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Obedience in being forgiven of your sins, requires that you confess with your mouth...

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9


Likewise this principle is seen in our initial salvation, which is the result of being forgiven of our sins.

Believing in your heart God's word that he will forgive your sin through Jesus Christ, that justifies (makes a person righteous) all by itself.

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. " (Romans 10:10 NASB)

People who have this faith are justified, then confess their sins and are saved. That's what the verse says. But you have it they are justified when they confess their sins.

 

[JLB]

Believing in your heart God's word that he will forgive your sin through Jesus Christ, that justifies (makes a person righteous) all by itself.

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. " (Romans 10:10 NASB)

People who have this faith are justified, then confess their sins and are saved. That's what the verse says. But you have it they are justified when they confess their sins.

Obedience in being forgiven of your sins, requires that you confess with your mouth...

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13


Confessing your sin, in order to be forgiven, is the righteous action of obedience.
Confessing Jesus as Lord, is the righteous action of obedience.
Forgiving another person of there sins, is a righteous action of obedience.

Are these righteous acts of obedience, words or deeds?



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Obedience in being forgiven of your sins, requires that you confess with your mouth...

If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9

For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

The point of contention that you seem to be avoiding now is that a person is justified when they believe. I don't see Paul saying obedience justifies a person (makes them righteous in God's sight). I see him saying believing does that:

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

But you are contradicting him by saying a person is justified (made righteous) when they do or say something. What you should be saying instead is that we are saved, and can expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath, when our faith finds expression in what we do, say, and think.

Salvation (I didn't say justification) is based on a faith that can then be seen in how a person acts. But so many in the church are convinced that dead faith (faith with nothing attached) is able to save a person. That's not what Paul and James say. What faith does all by itself is justify a person, but if it remains 'alone' it will not save you on the day of Wrath when God uses what we have done as evidence of either having faith in him, or not having faith in him.

 

[JLB]

The point of contention that you seem to be avoiding now is that a person is justified when they believe. I don't see Paul saying obedience justifies a person (makes them righteous in God's sight). I see him saying believing does that:

5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Romans 2:5-10

and again

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26 KJV

and again

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:9-10


...For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Matthew 12:37



JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Matthew 12:37

If 'justified' has only one meaning and application, why has Paul chosen to contradict Jesus?
He said believing justifies a person:

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

Not with your mouth, not with your hands, but with your heart.


.

 

[JLB]

The point of contention that you seem to be avoiding now is that a person is justified when they believe. I don't see Paul saying obedience justifies a person (makes them righteous in God's sight). I see him saying believing does that:

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

But you are contradicting him by saying a person is justified (made righteous) when they do or say something. What you should be saying instead is that we are saved, and can expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath, when our faith finds expression in what we do, say, and think.

Salvation (I didn't say justification) is based on a faith that can then be seen in how a person acts. But so many in the church are convinced that dead faith (faith with nothing attached) is able to save a person. That's not what Paul and James say. What faith does all by itself is justify a person, but if it remains 'alone' it will not save you on the day of Wrath when God uses what we have done as evidence of either having faith in him, or not having faith in him.

The way you are saved is by obedience. One must obey the Gospel command to repent.
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Thessalonians 1:8

The way you are justified is by obedience.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

But you are contradicting him by saying a person is justified (made righteous) when they do or say something.

You are contradicting Jesus when you say they aren't.

For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." Matthew 12:37


JLB

 

[JLB]

If 'justified' has only one meaning and application, why has Paul chosen to contradict Jesus?
He said believing justifies a person:

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

Not with your mouth, not with your hands, but with your heart.


.

You seem to have chosen to ignore the meaning of believe, and divorce it from obey.

It's the combination of believing with the heart and confessing with the mouth, that results in salvation by faith.

Paul breaks down for us the work of obedience together with believing that has a divine result.

Just as the spirit without the body is incomplete and does not function, so faith without the action of obedience is incomplete and does not function, nor bring about a divine result... Salvation.

Paul uses these words interchangeably in Romans 10...

But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" Romans 10:13


Paul reinforces the need for them to confess Jesus as YHWH, the Lord of the Old Testament for them to be saved.

Believing Faith in the heart, is expressed with the mouth.

Remove the confession with the mouth, and you remove salvation by faith.

...and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You seem to have chosen to ignore the meaning of believe, and divorce it from obey.

It's the combination of believing with the heart and confessing with the mouth, that results in salvation by faith.

Why are you continually avoiding the point of contention?
Paul said it is by believing that one is JUSTIFIED. (Note, I did not save SAVED.)

"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness" (Romans 10:10 NASB)

He did not say we are made righteous (justified) by what we say or do. But you say we are justified (made righteous) by what we say and/or do. That is in contradiction to what Paul said. Why are you defending a doctrine that contradicts what Paul teaches in the Bible?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The way you are justified is by obedience.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. James 2:24

Your problem is--you know, the one that creates a contradiction between James and Paul--is that you think James is using 'justified' as in to make one righteous (like Paul uses it in Romans 3:28 NASB, for example), instead of 'justified' as in to show one to be righteous. These are the two Biblical uses of the word 'justified' that you are leaving out of your doctrine and thus, creating a damnable works gospel (righteousness through what you do) instead of a gospel of grace (righteousness through faith, all by itself).

I'm confident that you will continue to resist the two usages (and definitions) of the word 'justified", so here they are in Strongs (emphasis mine):

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV

 

[JLB]

Your problem is--you know, the one that creates a contradiction between James and Paul--is that you think James is using 'justified' as in to make one righteous (like Paul uses it in Romans 3:28 NASB, for example), instead of 'justified' as in to show one to be righteous. These are the two Biblical uses of the word 'justified' that you are leaving out of your doctrine and thus, creating a damnable works gospel (righteousness through what you do) instead of a gospel of grace (righteousness through faith, all by itself).

I'm confident that you will continue to resist the two usages (and definitions) of the word 'justified", so here they are in Strongs (emphasis mine):

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV

I don't see any contradiction at all between Paul and James.

You on the other are the one who claims there is a contradiction.

Please explain how you see a contradiction between Paul and James.

I see in Paul's writing to the Romans, that righteous believing is manifested as righteous obedience by confessing with the mouth, unto salvation.

Faith all by itself is incomplete, just as the body without the spirit is incomplete. James 2:22-25

Faith only, without the expression of obedience is incomplete.

Obedient faith finds its expression of obedience in "confessing with the mouth".

By your words you are justified, and by your words you are condemned. Matthew 12:37

Those Who confessed Jesus as YHWH, the Lord God, together with believing that God raised Him from the dead, were saved.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You on the other are the one who claims there is a contradiction.

Please explain how you see a contradiction between Paul and James.

Boo on you!
I said YOU are making them contradict each other. I'm not. I know they are not in contradiction, and I'm proving it. You are the one who is pitting them exactly in contradiction to each other.

I see in Paul's writing to the Romans, that righteous believing is manifested as righteous obedience by confessing with the mouth, unto salvation.

Still avoiding the point of contention, I see.

Believing results in justification.
The things you do result in salvation.
Read it....

" with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:10 NASB)

But you have it as 'the things you do (confess, etc.) result in justification (being MADE righteous)'. That's the damnable works gospel that can not save. You are teaching 'another' gospel. Shame on you!

Faith only, without the expression of obedience is incomplete.

Obedient faith finds its expression of obedience in "confessing with the mouth".

We know this. But that hardly means we are justified (made righteous before God) by the expression of our obedience. As Paul says, justification happens by our faith all by itself.

What our obedience does is SHOW us to be righteous in God's sight, not MAKE us righteous in God's sight:

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1344&t=KJV

Until you acknowledge these two Biblical definitions and usages of the word 'justified' your doctrine will continue to create a contradiction between James/Jesus, and Paul. A contradiction created by your doctrine that atheists and unbelievers love to bring up to discredit the Bible, and which can not be refuted without knowing that the Bible uses the word 'justified' according to more than one of it's definitions.

 

[JLB]

I said YOU are making them contradict each other. I'm not. I know they are not in contradiction, and I'm proving it. You are the one who is pitting them exactly in contradiction to each other.

As I said, I see no contradiction between what Paul teaches and James teaches about the obedience of faith.

Here's why -

Faith all by itself is incomplete, just as the body without the spirit is incomplete. James 2:22-25

Faith only, without the expression of obedience is incomplete.

Obedient faith finds its expression of obedience in "confessing with the mouth".


I'm not "pitting them against each other, I'm showing that Paul and James teach the same "obedience principle" within the law of faith.


JLB

 

[JLB]

What our obedience does is SHOW us to be righteous in God's sight, not MAKE us righteous in God's sight:

Abraham was right with God, because he obeyed God's Voice.

It was Abraham's obedience, the obedience of faith [his choice to do the right thing,] to get out of his father's house, and go to the land... in response to God's Voice to do so, whereby he fulfilled the condition of the promise.

Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you.
2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."
4 So Abram departed as the Lord had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And Abram was seventy-five years old when he departed from Haran.
...So they came to the land of Canaan.Then the Lord appeared to Abram and said, "To your descendants I will give this land.
Genesis 12:1-4,7

It wasn't that Abraham worked as a man "works" in exchange for wages, but rather Abraham obeyed what God told him to do, by getting out of his father's house and going to the land that God showed him, in which he met the condition of the promise... as God said To your descendants I will give this land.

At this point was right with God, because believed and showed God that he believed by obeying.
Abraham was still in the process of faith, and was still continuing to believe, and continued to be obedient...


Abram dwelt in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelt in the cities of the plain and pitched his tent even as far as Sodom.
But the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked and sinful against the Lord.
And the Lord said to Abram, after Lot had separated from him: "Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are--northward, southward, eastward, and westward; for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.
And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. Arise, walk in the land through its length and its width, for I give it to you." Then Abram moved his tent, and went and dwelt by the terebinth trees of Mamre, which are in Hebron, and built an altar there to the Lord. Genesis 13:12-13

Abraham continues to believe, and continues to obey... waiting for the promise to be fulfilled.

God continues to fulfill His promise - I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you;

Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High.
And he blessed him and said: "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;
And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." And he gave him a tithe of all.
Now the king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the persons, and take the goods for yourself."
But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have raised my hand to the Lord, God Most High, the Possessor of heaven and earth,

that I will take nothing, from a thread to a sandal strap, and that I will not take anything that is yours, lest you should say, 'I have made Abram rich'-- Genesis 14:18-23

Abraham continues in his faithfulness to God, to serve Him and believe in Him


1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying, "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward."
2 But Abram said, "Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
3 Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!"
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness. Genesis 15:1-6


What you are trying to teach is:
This is the very first time that Abraham believed God, and all Abraham did was believe in his heart with no action of obedience, and therefore God accredited to him as righteousness.


Abraham showed he believed God, when he left his father's house and went to the land, that God showed him, by faith, and walked in the righteousness that is by faith.

The action of obedience was working together, with his faith, and therefore faith was completed through the action of obedience.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

Abraham continued to believe and continued to obey, throughout his life to the end, and God declared to his son...

And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed;because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:4-5


JLB