Grace and Law

[manichunter]

This is a mystery to me I am trying to discover. Study with me.

Here is the boggle:
How can a Christian receive grace without a law as to allow them to escape judgment from sin, and receive the mercy and grace of God at the end of their trusting God for His grace for the remission of sin which required judgment as defined by a law?

I am in law enforcement. I have a level of authority and discretion in my manner of how to handle criminal offenses as defined by civil and criminal laws. If I detain someone for an ounce of weed, I can take them into custody with their contraband or confiscate their contraband and let them go. My grace upon this person is dependant upon the laws I have to follow in the performance of my duties as proscribed by laws.

 

[dadof10]

This is a mystery to me I am trying to discover. Study with me.

Here is the boggle:
How can a Christian receive grace without a law as to allow them to escape judgment from sin, and receive the mercy and grace of God at the end of their trusting God for His grace for the remission of sin which required judgment as defined by a law?

I am in law enforcement. I have a level of authority and discretion in my manner of how to handle criminal offenses as defined by civil and criminal laws. If I detain someone for an ounce of weed, I can take them into custody with their contraband or confiscate their contraband and let them go. My grace upon this person is dependant upon the laws I have to follow in the performance of my duties as proscribed by laws.

That's an excellent question, and one I've never thought of. HHHuuummm...It's like the "Mike Stivic how can a good God allow bad things to happen" athiest argument. Without "bad" things, how could there even be "good" things. How can there even be Grace unless there is something (some kind of law) to let us off from. I'll have to think abot this.

Thanks for the assignment. :D

 

[dadof10]

This is a mystery to me I am trying to discover. Study with me.

Here is the boggle:
How can a Christian receive grace without a law as to allow them to escape judgment from sin, and receive the mercy and grace of God at the end of their trusting God for His grace for the remission of sin which required judgment as defined by a law?

I am in law enforcement. I have a level of authority and discretion in my manner of how to handle criminal offenses as defined by civil and criminal laws. If I detain someone for an ounce of weed, I can take them into custody with their contraband or confiscate their contraband and let them go. My grace upon this person is dependant upon the laws I have to follow in the performance of my duties as proscribed by laws.

Here is what I have so far. It seems that everyone (Jew, Greek and Christian) has some kind of "law" governing their actions according to Romans 2:

"Therefore you have no excuse, O man, whoever you are, when you judge another; for in passing judgment upon him you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. 2 We know that the judgment of God rightly falls upon those who do such things. 3 Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you presume upon the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5 But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 For he will render to every man according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for every one who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality. 12 All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

It could be simply the natural law for "Greeks" or the Law of Moses for the Jews, and since Paul is writing to to Christians, he includes them when he says "For he will render to every man according to his works..." and "There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek".

The point is, we are all worthy of judgement (even Christians) because we all "fall short" in our actions, so it is Grace alone that saves us.

 

[brakelite2]

This is a mystery to me I am trying to discover. Study with me.

Here is the boggle:
How can a Christian receive grace without a law as to allow them to escape judgment from sin, and receive the mercy and grace of God at the end of their trusting God for His grace for the remission of sin which required judgment as defined by a law?

I am in law enforcement. I have a level of authority and discretion in my manner of how to handle criminal offenses as defined by civil and criminal laws. If I detain someone for an ounce of weed, I can take them into custody with their contraband or confiscate their contraband and let them go. My grace upon this person is dependant upon the laws I have to follow in the performance of my duties as proscribed by laws.

Hey bro.
If I speed past you doing 185mph and you pull me over after chasing me for 120 miles; discover when questioning me that I am stoned, I have a loaded rifle on the seat next to me, and my pitbull leaps out of the car and takes a piece out of your leg, I think I'd be in trouble.
But you, being the kind guy you are and feeling sorry for me because my favourite second cousin twice removed died just recently 9 years ago and because I am still grieving, decide to let me off. That's grace. Lotssa grace.
I then let out a whoop, shout "praise cops everywhere" , proclaim my freedom from the law, take off in a hail of metal and smoke, do 3 360's in the middle of the freeway in celebration and accelerate to 250 mph while continuing to proclaim my freedom from being under the law because I am now under grace.

 

[found in alaska]

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. Galatians 3:25-26

For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: Hebrews 8:10

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Hebrews 10:16

I don't know if this helps, but the laws shows us we can't do it by our own and we need Jesus's sacrifice on the cross; to take away our sins and to recieve His righteousness.

 

[francisdesales]

Hey bro.
If I speed past you doing 185mph and you pull me over after chasing me for 120 miles; discover when questioning me that I am stoned, I have a loaded rifle on the seat next to me, and my pitbull leaps out of the car and takes a piece out of your leg, I think I'd be in trouble.
But you, being the kind guy you are and feeling sorry for me because my favourite second cousin twice removed died just recently 9 years ago and because I am still grieving, decide to let me off. That's grace. Lotssa grace.
I then let out a whoop, shout "praise cops everywhere" , proclaim my freedom from the law, take off in a hail of metal and smoke, do 3 360's in the middle of the freeway in celebration and accelerate to 250 mph while continuing to proclaim my freedom from being under the law because I am now under grace.

How sad. No wonder the concept of metanoia has left so many Christian communities. God is apparently not concerned with what we do whatsoever. He just randomly "saves" people for no purpose except to give them a false sense of security WHILE they continue to sin... Guess the Ten Commandments really are just "rules of thumb".

This completely overturns the whole idea of the Christian walk, as "you" continue to be a "slave" to the same destructive behavior as before. What ARE you saved from ? Freed from sin? No, just free from being punished.

Kids around the world would love such a contruct at home...

"Mommie, I'm under grace, so outa my face..."

:-?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

This is a mystery to me I am trying to discover. Study with me.

Here is the boggle:
How can a Christian receive grace without a law as to allow them to escape judgment from sin, and receive the mercy and grace of God at the end of their trusting God for His grace for the remission of sin which required judgment as defined by a law?

We still have a law. Who said grace is WITHOUT ANY law? We are under the Law of Jesus Christ, not the Mosaic Law. The Gospel is the FULFILLMENT of the Law. We are still bound by the "Royal Law of Love" (James 2:8)

We receive remission of sins as grace, but we are still judged by that Law of Love. Matthew 25 makes that clear in several parables.

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Hey bro.
If I speed past you doing 185mph and you pull me over after chasing me for 120 miles; discover when questioning me that I am stoned, I have a loaded rifle on the seat next to me, and my pitbull leaps out of the car and takes a piece out of your leg, I think I'd be in trouble.
But you, being the kind guy you are and feeling sorry for me because my favourite second cousin twice removed died just recently 9 years ago and because I am still grieving, decide to let me off. That's grace. Lotssa grace.
I then let out a whoop, shout "praise cops everywhere" , proclaim my freedom from the law, take off in a hail of metal and smoke, do 3 360's in the middle of the freeway in celebration and accelerate to 250 mph while continuing to proclaim my freedom from being under the law because I am now under grace.

How sad. No wonder the concept of metanoia has left so many Christian communities. God is apparently not concerned with what we do whatsoever. He just randomly "saves" people for no purpose except to give them a false sense of security WHILE they continue to sin... Guess the Ten Commandments really are just "rules of thumb".

This completely overturns the whole idea of the Christian walk, as "you" continue to be a "slave" to the same destructive behavior as before. What ARE you saved from ? Freed from sin? No, just free from being punished.

Kids around the world would love such a contruct at home...

"Mommie, I'm under grace, so outa my face..."

:-?

Regards

Well said

 

[BobRyan]

This is a mystery to me I am trying to discover. Study with me.

Here is the boggle:
How can a Christian receive grace without a law as to allow them to escape judgment from sin, and receive the mercy and grace of God at the end of their trusting God for His grace for the remission of sin which required judgment as defined by a law?

I am in law enforcement. I have a level of authority and discretion in my manner of how to handle criminal offenses as defined by civil and criminal laws. If I detain someone for an ounce of weed, I can take them into custody with their contraband or confiscate their contraband and let them go. My grace upon this person is dependant upon the laws I have to follow in the performance of my duties as proscribed by laws.

In Rom 3:31 Paul says "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

in James 2 the Ten Commandments are identified as "the Law of Liberty" and James argues that we -- the saints - live as those who are to be judged BY that Law of Liberty.

in Col 2 Paul argues that Christ PAID our debt of sin "consisting of decrees" judgments "against us" having taking it out of the way by "nailing our CERTIFICATE OF DEBT to the cross". He paid what the law said WAS OWED.

Again -- this is UPHOLDING law to enforce the penalty that it demands.

Such that in 1Cor 7:19 we have "circumcision is nothing (being a Jew) and uncircumcision is nothing (being gentile) but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

Is 53 says that "he took the punishment for us to WHOM the stroke was DUE".

In 1John 2:2 "He is the ATONING SACRIFICE for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" - Christ paid a substitutionary atoning sacrifice that satisfied the LAW.

As Rom 3 states -- the LAW has shut up all under sin - such that ALL are accountable ALL need a Savior -- ALL are doomed to the second death lake of fire seen in Rev 20 without a Savior.

God's mercy is NOT unjust because it UPHOLDS His Law.

Notice that for justice to be done the violations must CEASE the offender must be removed from society and the punishment must be such as to disuade future would-be offenders. That is exactly what we have in the Gospel and outside the Gospel.

IN the Gospel the sinner is done away with "If anyone is in Christ he is a NEW creation OLD things are done away" 2Cor 5 ... in fact in Romans 8 we are told that as Christians our job is "by the Spirit to put to DEATH the deeds of the flesh".

and UNDER the Gospel the PENALTY falls on our Lord and Savior not us -- which leaves us in sorrow over our own act in causing him pain.

OUTSIDE the gospel the sinner pays the penalty -- since he chooses not to accept the payment Christ offers at the Cross. That penalty visited upon the sinner must STILL do the same thing -- it must stop the sin -- stop the violation and it must apply punishment in a way that disuades all future would-be sinners.

This happen in the lake of fire 2nd death where the wicked are tormented and their sin is then ENDED for God says he "DESTROYS BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.

They have nothing left "to sin with".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[brakelite2]

Hey guys, my post was a tongue in cheek take of the wrong attitude that is so prevalent withing Christianity today. I'm with you. To say that the law is now of no account because we are saved by grace, is nonsense. "Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!" Sin is the transgression against the law. Even Christians are still accountable to God for their offenses against the law. The law is a transcript of the character of God. To suggest that the law is now void is to say that the character of God is void.
Read my post again, and the sarcasm intent will be evident.

 

[francisdesales]

Hey guys, my post was a tongue in cheek take of the wrong attitude that is so prevalent withing Christianity today. I'm with you. To say that the law is now of no account because we are saved by grace, is nonsense. "Shall we sin that grace may abound? God forbid!" Sin is the transgression against the law. Even Christians are still accountable to God for their offenses against the law. The law is a transcript of the character of God. To suggest that the law is now void is to say that the character of God is void.
Read my post again, and the sarcasm intent will be evident.

Sorry, brakelite, but there ARE people who think as you described in your scenario.

For posts in the future, please put a "sarcasm" face up and it will save us all lots of time "preaching to the choir"...

Regards