Graven Images

[JayR]

There are a lot of professing Christians on these forums who have images of Christ for their avatar. To you all, I think you need to hear that those images you have of Christ are perversions of His glory and a blatant transgression of the second commandment. We aren't to make images of God. Any idea in our minds of what Christ might look like is a total perversion because our fallen minds aren't capable of grasping the fulness of His glory in their unglorified state. Please remove them. I hate having to renounce them every time my eyes fall upon the perverted images that don't compare to the glory of Christ.

So you need to remove them not only because they are a transgression of the second commandment, but they may be causing people on these forums to stumble, and therefore you need to remove them for that reason as well.

 

[biblecatholic]

JayR,

I wanted to get a better picture what you were including in what you interpret as "graven images". Do you include a cross, an image of a Lamb or a Lion, A image of Jesus? Can one have an image of the bible? What all do you cover?

 

[Archetype]

There are a lot of professing Christians on these forums who have images of Christ for their avatar. To you all, I think you need to hear that those images you have of Christ are perversions of His glory and a blatant transgression of the second commandment. We aren't to make images of God. Any idea in our minds of what Christ might look like is a total perversion because our fallen minds aren't capable of grasping the fulness of His glory in their unglorified state. Please remove them. I hate having to renounce them every time my eyes fall upon the perverted images that don't compare to the glory of Christ.

So you need to remove them not only because they are a transgression of the second commandment, but they may be causing people on these forums to stumble, and therefore you need to remove them for that reason as well.

I agree. Catholics worship crosses, pray with beads, wear ashes on their foreheads, address priests as father, abstain from food and drink, hold candle light vigils in the dark and kiss and talk to statues. baptists wear crosses, hold mass in churches with bordered up windows and have pictures of different jesus in their wallets. mormons are of the devil. and the rest are so "off the edge" that they do not deserve comment.

everyone that partakes in these unchristian practices are sinning.

 

[Free]

I agree. Catholics worship crosses, pray with beads, wear ashes on their foreheads, address priests as father, abstain from food and drink, hold candle light vigils in the dark and kiss and talk to statues. baptists wear crosses, hold mass in churches with bordered up windows and have pictures of different jesus in their wallets. mormons are of the devil. and the rest are so "off the edge" that they do not deserve comment.

everyone that partakes in these unchristian practices are sinning.

You're not serious, are you?

 

[JayR]

I wanted to get a better picture what you were including in what you interpret as "graven images". Do you include a cross, an image of a Lamb or a Lion, A image of Jesus? Can one have an image of the bible? What all do you cover?

I said images of God. That includes artist renditions of Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. I am absolutely positive that we aren't to make images of Them. The Bible isn't God, so I suppose we can have pictures of Bibles if we really want to, although I don't personally see the point. Lion and lamb I suppose are alright, because they are biblical symbols for who and what Jesus is rather than pictures of His person as Diety and part of the Godhead. I was talking particularly of the images of Christ that are all over these forums. I don't want to have to look at them. They are foul perversions of the glory of Christ that no human skill is capable of capturing in an image, and therefore they are graven images, and idols that are to be abhorred. When I pray to my Creator I don't want images that are nothing more than perversions of His glory popping up in my mind for me to worship, that's called idolatry. We don't worship images, we worship God in spirit and in truth.

 

[Archetype]

I wanted to get a better picture what you were including in what you interpret as "graven images". Do you include a cross, an image of a Lamb or a Lion, A image of Jesus? Can one have an image of the bible? What all do you cover?

I said images of God. That includes artist renditions of Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit. I am absolutely positive that we aren't to make images of Them. The Bible isn't God, so I suppose we can have pictures of Bibles if we really want to, although I don't personally see the point. Lion and lamb I suppose are alright, because they are biblical symbols for who and what Jesus is rather than pictures of His person as Diety and part of the Godhead. I was talking particularly of the images of Christ that are all over these forums. I don't want to have to look at them. They are foul perversions of the glory of Christ that no human skill is capable of capturing in an image, and therefore they are graven images, and idols that are to be abhorred. When I pray to my Creator I don't want images that are nothing more than perversions of His glory popping up in my mind for me to worship, that's called idolatry. We don't worship images, we worship God in spirit and in truth.

Why are you asking me if I'm serious? Go to a roman catholic church espeically during the week of lent and see for yourself. they hold graven images/dolls/statues of spirits, angel and saints. they also pray and speak to them, some kiss them.

I absolutely agree that people here who ost images of christ are commiting idolatry and blasphemeing the lord. they claim its " honoring him", but in reality they are praying to lucifer and profaning the lord's name.

i dont have pictures of some jesus or a statues on my car dashboard or a cross around my neck or tattoo of jesus on my rear end( one girl i knew, had a tattoo of jesus on her chest). another guy, who was a gang banger, had the image of the virgin mary on his arm, breast feeding a child and an older man. its sickening.


but i agree wholeheartedly, that people doing that worship/bow satan.

 

[Vic C.]

Breathe everyone. 8-)

First off, Archtype, who are you speaking to? No one you quoted has questioned if you are serious or not.

Secondly, this is from the Apologetics "Terms":

Administrator's note: we ask that no other topics discussing RCC beliefs be started. The topic will be subject to deletion and you will be pointed to one of the predefined topics, providing your subject matter matches one of the established topics... Thanks!

Basically what I'm saying is, please do not turn this into a RC thread. There are topics in the RCC subforum where matters like this could be discussed.

Thanks.

Vic

baptists wear crosses, hold mass in churches with bordered up windows and have pictures of different jesus in their wallets

What in the world have you been smoking??? Baptists DO NOT hold Mass, I have no idea what a bordered up window is and most congregation members in our church know better than to carry pictures of Jesus, not that it should matter to me anyway.

I'm beginning to wonder if this topic will do nothing but cause division in this Forum.

Free, help me keep a watch on this thread. 8-)

 

[Archetype]

Breathe everyone. 8-)

First off, Archtype, who are you speaking to? No one you quoted has questioned if you are serious or not.

Secondly, this is from the Apologetics "Terms":

Administrator's note: we ask that no other topics discussing RCC beliefs be started. The topic will be subject to deletion and you will be pointed to one of the predefined topics, providing your subject matter matches one of the established topics... Thanks!

Basically what I'm saying is, please do not turn this into a RC thread. There are topics in the RCC subforum where matters like this could be discussed.

Thanks.

Vic

I'm not attacking any one faction. I was merely pointing out that many factions of so-called christians worship graven images and idols not just in these forums but everywhere. among them catholics and baptists. but, I see where you're going with this.

it was the other guy, free that questioned me. and i told him to go see for himself.

but yeah, those are graven images. clearly in defiance of the lord.

 

[Archetype]

baptists wear crosses, hold mass in churches with bordered up windows and have pictures of different jesus in their wallets

What in the world have you been smoking??? Baptists DO NOT hold Mass, I have no idea what a bordered up window is and most congregation members in our church know better than to carry pictures of Jesus, not that it should matter to me anyway.

I'm beginning to wonder if this topic will do nothing but cause division in this Forum.

Free, help me keep a watch on this thread. 8-)[/quote]

Baptists don't come together and worship on Sundays, hence hold mass? I don't know what planet you're from, but on earth they do.

Yes. The group that worships in a church with their windows shut closed are baptists I think, they could be jehovah witnesses, their church, if you want to call it that is in NW indiana. but in any case, they hold mass in their basement, shut their windows closed and lock their doors when mass is commencing. remember what the lord said, there are those who congregate in the shadows in secret locations, but the lord can see and hear all. sounds like a cult to me.

it should matter to you! you're your brother's keeper! rebuke and correct him if you witness his wrongdoing(in this case, idolatry and profanity). he shall do the same with thee. this is a commandment from the lord. i don't see how you can shrug it off and call yourself a christian!

 

[mutzrein]

Ummm - I'm not subject to the commandments. I'm a gentile. The grace of God is sufficient for me.

 

[handy]

If I may make a suggestion here:

JayR (and whomever else might be offended by an avatar) you can go into your User Control Panel, click on "Board Preferences", then on "Edit Display options". From there you see the option to display avatars, and if you click "no", then no avatars will be displayed.

JayR, I don't want to be disrespectful of your strong opinions regarding images, but they are not commonly held beliefs and it is perhaps unreasonable to expect everyone to share them. I do take seriously the fact that we are not to cause others to stumble, but I don't think most will stumble through an avatar, as there is a very strong case to be made that there is a vast difference between avatars on PC forums and the kind of graven images found in Exodus.

So, go ahead and disable the avatars on your preferences, then you won't need to worry about images that you find offensive popping up.

 

[JayR]

I'll do that, and I appreciate you telling me how, but my asking people not to post them isn't solely about me, it's about them as well, and more importantly it's about God. Any picture made by man of Jesus Christ is a perversion of His glory. Is that not true? It is true, and therefore it shouldn't be done. It isn't Jesus in the picture, it is an image that came up in the mind of some fallen man somewhere. It is not Jesus Christ. There are no pictures of Jesus Christ anywhere on this planet, and any supposed picture of Him is an offence against His person and against His glory, and should not be posted anywhere especially by someone who claims to love Him. "Whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." Whether the most menial task such as eating or drinking, or whatever we do, all should be done to the glory of God, and posting images that pervert that glory is a blatant transgression of that commandment, and it shouldn't be done.

 

[JayR]

Ummm - I'm not subject to the commandments. I'm a gentile. The grace of God is sufficient for me.

You're no longer under the curse of the law, and you aren't subject to the wrath of the law if you are a Christian, but you still need to obey God. You can't completely ignore the commandments of God and live in iniquity, if you do, the Bible says in 1 John that you don't know God, and on the day of Judgment Jesus will tell you, "Depart from me, I never knew you, you who work iniquity."

 

[sparrow]

Ummm - I'm not subject to the commandments. I'm a gentile. The grace of God is sufficient for me.

You're no longer under the curse of the law, and you aren't subject to the wrath of the law if you are a Christian, but you still need to obey God. You can't completely ignore the commandments of God and live in iniquity, if you do, the Bible says in 1 John that you don't know God, and on the day of Judgment Jesus will tell you, "Depart from me, I never knew you, you who work iniquity."

holy removal from context, Batman...

try taking a chill pill and rethink what you're saying here Jay.

mark

 

[JayR]

What did I say that wasn't true?

I said IF... then Jesus will say that to Him, and everything I said was true.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The commandment about “graven images†is one of the most misunderstood scriptures. Consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.†Here, God is commanding that images be made!

So is God contradicting himself? First he says don’t make a graven image, and then he orders graven images to be made?

No, he is not contradicting himself. The problem is that folks have misinterpreted the words “graven image.â€Â

According to Strong’s Concordance, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image†referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi ... ongs=06459 ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god, or something that you place above God. Since the Cheribum are not false Gods, there is no contradiction.

Therefore, statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

Bottom line: The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.

 

[Imagican]

I see that I am NOT the ONLY one that recognizes what 'graven image' means.

Jay, you are correct in that we were WARNED not to do these things.

There is a 'reason' folks. It was NOT forbidden simply to deny us pleasure in that which we adorn ourselves or our temples. It was forbidden for the spiritual calamity that may result in their uses.

That MOST that 'use' these items don't recognize their dangers just goes to show how FAR from the TRUTH the churches have led the flock. For it IS the churches that have created and perpetuated the use of these symbols.

This is NOT a CC issue ANY MORE than it is a Protestant issue. It may have 'started' with the CC but it has been carried down into ALMOST every denomination that exists today.

Funny how the Protestants recognize that idolotry of the CC but fail to recognize their OWN FORM OF IT. Using their OWN symbols and idols as do the Catholics.

Crosses, pictures of Jesus, Pictures of God............. Can't you PLAINLY SEE that these ARE depictions of FALSE Gods? For we KNOW NOT what Christ OR His Father LOOK LIKE. So, to create images to depict what we 'believe' them to look like we have created FALSE IMAGES.

We have been told that NO ONE has EVER SEEN God. Yet there are those that think it is OK to exhibit pictures that are IMAGES of the INVISIBLE God. And then state that it's OK. TOTALLY ignoring what we have been offered to the contrary.

How do you suppose that one is capable of the 'perfect understanding' that we have been offered if one is UNABLE to recognize such simple faults as the one's mentioned here?

This use of idolotry is NO different than the Pharasees STANDING in the crowds PRAYING out LOUD. Looking to impress others with their piety. Their reward is ALREADY gained at the moment that they perform such. But a 'heavenly reward' DENIED them for the sake of their OWN personal deception and that of others.

MEC

 

[JayR]

Amen to that.

Also, regarding images and artwork that is supposed to be God, you could completely ignore the second commandment regarding the issue and still be sinning. It doesn't matter whether you are worshipping these images or not. Did Jesus Christ pose for you? If He did, would your human hands and human skill be able to capture His glory in it's fulness? Is there a fallen man on this earth who is worthy to stand up and rise to the challenge of painting or sculpting our Lord? Absolutely not, and that would be if He was there and willingly posed for someone to create a rendition of Him. Any human attempt to create an image of God radically perverts His glory, and is an offense against His person and His glory.

Also, the second commandments is there for a purpose. We are fallen creatures seceptible to temptation. We are tempted to lust, to be angry, to be proud, and whatever else we are tempted with, what makes you think we aren't tempted to worship idols? When you pray, if you start imagining some perverted artist rendition of the glory of God, you are committing idolatry. You don't worship or pray to images, you worship God in spirit and in truth and you pray to Him in the same way.

Like I've said earlier, those pictures, and those statues are NOT Jesus Christ. They are NOT Jesus Christ. They are an image that came up in the mind of a fallen man who isn't capable of imagining let alone perfectly expressing the glory of God in his unglorified state. Do we not honor God enough as to protect and honor His glory as He deserves?

Look at the book of 1 John. It is an entire book based on identifying whether or not we are truly a believer or not, and the closing line is, "Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen." We are seseptible to idolatry, and therefore we need to abhor perverted artist renditions of what they think is God, and keep ourselves from them.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Did Jesus Christ pose for you?

I see no reason to make statements like that. Art is art. God gives us all gifts, and I do not think He would deny the artist his expression of faith. I think statues like Michaelangelo's Pieta are beautiful expressions of his faith. People who fear such beauty remind me of people who look for boogymen under their bed at night - full of needless fear.

Art is art, and beauty is beauty. Do not fear the beauty that God gives to the mind of the artist:
http://www.susceptibletoimages.com/images/1pieta1.jpg

 

[JayR]

God's beauty can't be capture by human ability. Do you disagree with that? Do you think God's glory is so small as to be created by human hands? If so, then you don't know the God of the Bible, because if His glory is to be seen by men, they would die. These perversions of the glory of God that you call beautiful works of art are blasphemous perversions of the true glory that He deserves, and are offensive in His sight. If you want to express your faith towards God, then do it the ways He commands you to, not by perverting His glory.