Graven Images

[Catholic Crusader]

The PROOF that you seek is RIGHT in front of your eyes. The CC DESTROYED ANYTHING that was of NO VALUE to their SYSTEM. Whether it was 'writtings' that disputed their authority, PEOPLE that disputed their authority, they simply burned them....

My goodness. It was the "reformers" who went smashing the beatiful things in all the Churches. It was Henry VIII who killed every Catholic Bishop that would not bow down to him as the NEW head of the Church of England.

You want more?

The Protestant Inquisition, a term applied to the severities of John Calvin in Geneva and Queen Elizabeth I in England during the 1500s. Calvin's followers burned 58 "heretics," including theologian Michael Servetus, who doubted the Trinity. Elizabeth I outlawed Catholicism and executed about 200 Catholics.

The Anabaptists, communal "rebaptizers," were slaughtered by Protestant authorities. In Munster, Germany, Anabaptists took control of the city, drove out the clergymen, and proclaimed a New Zion. While the townspeople starved, the Anabaptist leader proclaimed himself king and executed dissenters.

Oliver Cromwell was deemed a moderate because he massacred only Catholics and Anglicans, not other Protestants. This Puritan general commanded Bible-carrying soldiers, whom he roused to religious fervor. After decimating an Anglican army, Cromwell said, "God made them as stubble to our swords." He demanded the beheading of the defeated King Charles I, and made himself the holy dictator of England during the 1650s. When his army crushed the hated Irish Catholics, he ordered the execution of the surrendered defenders of Drogheda and their priests, calling it "a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous wretches."

When Puritans settled in Massachusetts in the 1600s, they created a religious police state where doctrinal deviation could lead to flogging, pillorying, hanging, cutting off ears, or boring through the tongue with a hot iron. Preaching Quaker beliefs was a capital offense. Four stubborn Quakers defied this law and were hanged. In the 1690s fear of witches seized the colony. Twenty alleged witches were killed and 150 others imprisoned.

Now, what has all of this to do with Graven Images?

 

[Imagican]

Christ was no ordinary man though was He, it is miraculous I grant you but Christ was a miracle worker and the God of the Christians is an Almighty God, if our God is the same God of the Bible it would be more unlikely if he did not continue to work miracles through His chosen servants.

WE are not talking about the burial of an ordinary Jew and you demean Christ with your comparison.

Since we are living under a 'covenant of FAITH' now, I don't believe we NEED physical 'signs' or the like in this generation. As a matter of FACT, the Bible offers that there WOULD be a 'sign given'. But it most certainly wasn't in the 'form of a shroud' or a 'picture of God'.

I mean no disrespect towards my Savior and HE KNOWS what's in my heart. So beware of the accusations that you offer. Jesus Christ WAS 'born in the flesh' to SUFFER in the flesh NOT ONLY 'just like you and I' but MORE SO. In order to DIE for ALL sin, it was NEED BE that He UNDERSTAND all sin. That means that HE suffered temptation JUST LIKE THE REST OF US. The only difference being that He did NOT surcome to it.

ab,

I don't really know what point you are in your walk. But please understand that if you desire to 'take part' in such discussions as these, you are placing yourself in a position for others to QUESTION your 'spiritual maturity'. I offer this NOT as rebuke but simply to warn you that IF you are 'just beginning your walk' taking part in such discussions could well bring you more 'doubt' than reassurance.

This IS a 'pretty DEEP' subject. And I am NOT here to simply 'spout out' random thoughts or ideas. I am honestly TRYING to offer 'understanding' to ANY willing to 'listen'.

But, as Christ offered over and over again, If one is unable to understand His Words it is due to WHAT they follow and of NO FAULT of His. For the wisdom of this world will NOT allow those that follow 'IT' to understand ANYTHING other than IT. Those of this world WILL not accept or understand that which is offered 'from above'.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

The PROOF that you seek is RIGHT in front of your eyes. The CC DESTROYED ANYTHING that was of NO VALUE to their SYSTEM. Whether it was 'writtings' that disputed their authority, PEOPLE that disputed their authority, they simply burned them....

My goodness. It was the "reformers" who went smashing the beatiful things in all the Churches. It was Henry VIII who killed every Catholic Bishop that would not bow down to him as the NEW head of the Church of England.

You want more?

As one who has attempted to study the history of the CC as well as 'other religions' WITHOUT 'bias', there is little that you could offer, EXCEPT individual instances, that I am UNAWARE of. I have Never STATED that the reformers were ANYTHING other than OFFSHOOTS 'of' the CC. And oft times they certainly DID exhibit the SAME hatred that they had been 'taught' by their 'teachers'.

What you offer is truth, to an extent. For their MISTREATMENT of others, once the 'others' were ABLE, they most certainly DID rebel against their former 'masters'. And CC, the reformers ONLY existed a few hundred years ago. It seems that you would IGNORE the first FIFTEEN hundred and simply point out the last 'few' hundred.

Are you actually going to DENY that the CC burned books written by those that they 'deemed' heretical? Are you actually going to deny that they 'burned at the stake' those whose confessions they had FORCED?

The Protestant Inquisition, a term applied to the severities of John Calvin in Geneva and Queen Elizabeth I in England during the 1500s. Calvin's followers burned 58 "heretics," including theologian Michael Servetus, who doubted the Trinity. Elizabeth I outlawed Catholicism and executed about 200 Catholics.

OK, So?

The Anabaptists, communal "rebaptizers," were slaughtered by Protestant authorities. In Munster, Germany, Anabaptists took control of the city, drove out the clergymen, and proclaimed a New Zion. While the townspeople starved, the Anabaptist leader proclaimed himself king and executed dissenters.

OK, So?

Oliver Cromwell was deemed a moderate because he massacred only Catholics and Anglicans, not other Protestants. This Puritan general commanded Bible-carrying soldiers, whom he roused to religious fervor. After decimating an Anglican army, Cromwell said, "God made them as stubble to our swords." He demanded the beheading of the defeated King Charles I, and made himself the holy dictator of England during the 1650s. When his army crushed the hated Irish Catholics, he ordered the execution of the surrendered defenders of Drogheda and their priests, calling it "a righteous judgment of God upon these barbarous wretches."

OK, So?

When Puritans settled in Massachusetts in the 1600s, they created a religious police state where doctrinal deviation could lead to flogging, pillorying, hanging, cutting off ears, or boring through the tongue with a hot iron. Preaching Quaker beliefs was a capital offense. Four stubborn Quakers defied this law and were hanged. In the 1690s fear of witches seized the colony. Twenty alleged witches were killed and 150 others imprisoned.

And your 'point'? I'm SURE you don't really want to follow this direction? You have YET to hear me defend ANY ONE OF THESE events. As I have TRIED to 'tell' you over and over again you are 'accusing the WRONG fellow'. I have NOT claimed to BE a Protestant. Nor have I EVER defended them any more than I have offered negative statements concerning Catholic theology.

It is YOU who are insisting on labeling me. I have 'killed no one' And I do NOT follow the 'beliefs' of those that you refer to. But YOU are RIGHT. These events DID take place. And I could write a 'book' on what little of the Catholic history that I know so far as HATE for one's 'brothers and sisters'. But this does not alter the 'truth' one way or the other.

Now, what has all of this to do with Graven Images?

NONE of what you have offered in this tirade has ANYTHING to do with it that I am aware of. But perhaps in some 'hidden way' it really does. Perhaps it is 'through' the worship of images that this 'misaligned' theology was ABLE to be perpetrated and perpetuated. Who knows. We DO know that when we IGNORE God's Word that He has a WAY of 'bringing us back' to the proper perspective. Either that, or utter destruction.

MEC

 

[Abimael]

ab,

I don't really know what point you are in your walk. But please understand that if you desire to 'take part' in such discussions as these, you are placing yourself in a position for others to QUESTION your 'spiritual maturity'. I offer this NOT as rebuke but simply to warn you that IF you are 'just beginning your walk' taking part in such discussions could well bring you more 'doubt' than reassurance.

This IS a 'pretty DEEP' subject. And I am NOT here to simply 'spout out' random thoughts or ideas. I am honestly TRYING to offer 'understanding' to ANY willing to 'listen'.

But, as Christ offered over and over again, If one is unable to understand His Words it is due to WHAT they follow and of NO FAULT of His. For the wisdom of this world will NOT allow those that follow 'IT' to understand ANYTHING other than IT. Those of this world WILL not accept or understand that which is offered 'from above'.

MEC

Others are free to question my spiritual maturity if they wish I have been walking with Christ for 26 years now I am well on with my pilgrimage. I do not take part in these discussions for reassurance I am long past the testing stage concerning matters of Faith I am certain of what is true and what is false, my faith is unshakeable and I thank God for this great grace every day.

You assume that my understanding is false but have we not studied the same scriptures, and yet we have different understandings, what is the remedy, how might we know the truth with certainty given that our salvation depends on it?

 

[Devekut]

And your 'point'? I'm SURE you don't really want to follow this direction? You have YET to hear me defend ANY ONE OF THESE events. As I have TRIED to 'tell' you over and over again you are 'accusing the WRONG fellow'. I have NOT claimed to BE a Protestant. Nor have I EVER defended them any more than I have offered negative statements concerning Catholic theology.

Neither am I for starting some kind of argument as to which Christian group has done more evil in Christ's name than the other.

But MEC...

You're not a Protestant? You're not a Catholic? You're not Anabaptist or Orthodox?

It's quite easy to have clean past when you don't even have one.

 

[Vic C.]

This topic started off questioning "Christians" on the use of graven images. After repeated attempts to keep in line with the OP and attempts to not make it personal or an argument against the RCC only, it seems we failed.

This topic is now locked.