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Graven Images

JayR said:
God's beauty can't be capture by human ability. Do you disagree with that? Do you think God's glory is so small as to be created by human hands?
I ask you a counter-question: When we sing beautiful hymns to God, is this not acceptable to God? Does not He love such things? Music is just another form of art, and another artistic expression of faith.

I do not believe I said that an artist could capture all of God's glory. I believe I said that such artwork are beautiful expressions of the faith of the arist. Who are we to stifle people in how they express their love for God.
 
I ask you a counter-question: When we sing beautiful hymns to God, is this not acceptable to God? Does not He love such things? Music is just another form of art, and another artistic expression of faith.

The difference between us worshipping and praising God in spirit and in truth as we are commanded to, which He does accept, and creating perverted images of Him that don't begin to compare to His awesome glory, is obvious. Your problem is that you don't realize that these images are not beautiful. They are disgusting. They are perversions of something that is beautiful. They are profane. God is not profane, He is holy, holy, holy. "Whether you eat, or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God." Everything we do should be to maximize and to glorify God. Does creating images of Him that pervert that glory glorify Him?
 
JayR said:
The difference between us worshipping and praising God in spirit and in truth as we are commanded to, which He does accept, and creating perverted images of Him that don't begin to compare to His awesome glory, is obvious. Your problem is that you don't realize that these images are not beautiful. They are disgusting.
I guess we shall agree to differ then. You see the masterpieces of the great Renaissance artists as disgusting, whereas I see them as beautiful expressions of faith.
 
Answer my question. Do think making perverted images of God's glory glorifies God?
 
JayR said:
Answer my question. Do think making perverted images of God's glory glorifies God?
I think your question is based on a false premise, which is that the images are "perverted". Here are two pictures:
http://www.susceptibletoimages.com/images/1pieta1.jpg
http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/services/present ... _jesus.jpg

If you think these are perverted, then I would challenge your sense of art. Assuming it was the artist's intent to give glory to God, then, yes: I believe they give glory to God.
 
When speaking to the Samaritan woman at the well concerning worshipping the Father, he told her: "The hour is coming when neither in this mountain (Mount Gerizim) nor in Jerusalem (at the temple) is the place where persons ought to worship. You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, because salvation originates with the Jews. Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth."(John 4:21-24)

Hence, Jesus clearly identified that those who worship the Father, God, must do so without the use anything that is venerated as an idol. The Samaritan woman and Jews had to adjust their way of worship so as to please God. Jesus emphasized that God wants true worship. Thus, there are forms of worship unacceptable to God, though these may profess to be Christian. The Samaritans had false religious ideas and accepted only the first five books of the Bible as inspired - and these solely in their recension known as the Samaritan Pentateuch. These, therefore did not really know God.

At Exodus 20:4,5, God gave the nation of Israel the command: "You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion." These were not to make anything to use as an aid in worshipping God, for doing so would cause God to bring "punishment for the error of fathers upon sons."

Forty years later, just before the Israelites entered the land of Canaan, God told the nation through Moses, that: "you must take good care of your souls, because you did not see any form on the day of Jehovah’s speaking to you in Ho´reb out of the middle of the fire, that you may not act ruinously and may not really make for yourselves a carved image, the form of any symbol, the representation of male or female, the representation of any beast that is in the earth, the representation of any winged bird that flies in the heavens, the representation of anything moving on the ground, the representation of any fish that is in the waters under the earth; and that you may not raise your eyes to the heavens and indeed see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the army of the heavens, and actually get seduced and bow down to them and serve them, which Jehovah your God has apportioned to all the peoples under the whole heavens."(Deut. 4:15-19)

Later, though, the nation of Israel did not listen to this command and began making images to serve in their worship, even to other gods. Josiah, the last good king before the destruction of the land of Judah in 607 B.C.E., followed God's command, for 2 Chronicles 34:33 says that "Jo·si´ah removed all the detestable things out of all the lands that belonged to the sons of Israel, and he had all who were found in Israel take up service, to serve Jehovah their God."

Just a few years before the destruction of the land of Judah in 607 B.C.E., Ezekiel was shown by God that the nation of Israel, though in a covenant with God, had prostrated themselves before idols, giving devotion to these. God thus said: "And your altars must be made desolate and your incense stands must be broken, and I will cause your slain ones to fall before your dungy idols. And I will put the carcasses of the sons of Israel before their dungy idols, and I will scatter your bones all around your altars."(Eze 6:4,5) God was going to bring the nation of Israel to ruin because of their false religious practices, which involved the use of idols.

Some sixteen years after Jesus death and resurrection, the apostles and older men, when settling the issue of circumcision, wrote letters to all the congregations, saying that "the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to you, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication."(Acts 15:28,29) Thus, these reiterated that God hates the use of idols, putting it in the same category as fornication and the misuse of blood.

Then, almost fifty years later, the apostle John in giving loving counsel to the congregations, said" Little children, guard yourselves from idols."(1 John 5:21) Hence, the use of idols is condemned in the Bible and God is looking for those who will worship him "in spirit and truth".
 
The end doesn't justify the means if the means are sinful. The artist didn't give any glory to God by falling way short of it and presenting a perverted and corrupted image of it, He takes glory from God and insults Him by doing that. No, I won't look at those images, I love God and refuse to behold man's corrupt interpretation of His glory.
 
I don't think that there is anything wrong with art, even art that represents Jesus, if it is done to His glory. I cannot think of any better subject in which to apply Titus 1:13-16.

The commandments in Exodus clearly are directed towards a culture that was surrounded and tempted by false gods and idol worship. When Moses tarried on Mt. Sinai, the first thing the Israelites did was to make a calf of gold and declare it a god. The commandments were centered upon worship, not art. Otherwise, as CC pointed out, God Himself would be 'sinning' by commanding that golden cherubim be placed upon the Ark. And we know that God cannot ever sin.

However, if this debate still rages as it obviously does, I think the Catholics have to respect that the actions of many of their own provide the fuel for the fire of controversary. I'm sorry, but I've seen too many catholics kneel before statues and even kiss the statues. I know that the Catholic will say, "Ah, but we know that isn't God". Well, if it isn't, why are you on your knees before a hunk of wood or plaster?

I don't think art is inherently evil. I do think that many Catholics stray way to far into idol worship when they kneel and genuflect before statues.
 
JayR said:
The end doesn't justify the means if the means are sinful. The artist didn't give any glory to God by falling way short of it.....
By that logic, none of us can give any glory to God, because we all fall short in all that we do. You do not worship perfectly, and the artist does not paint perfectly. Art is beautiful, and God loves everything His children do to give glory to him. There is no sin in being an artist. I'll never fathom that brand of Puritanistic Christianty.

I believe you are wrong. You believe I am wrong. I guess the only difference is that the Catholics, the Eastern Orthodox, the Traditional Anglicans and the Coptics are in agreement with what I have said, and this represents 85% of the Christian world. So please do not speak in absolutes to me about what is right and wrong. Christian tradition is on my side.

As I said earlier, we shall agree to differ. I do not want to get drawn down into an argument.

Peace be with you.
 
By that logic, none of us can give any glory to God, because we all fall short in all that we do.

No. You don't understand what I'm saying. We can worship God because He tells us to in spirit and in truth, but worship is declaring God's glory, while making images of God is supposively representing God's glory, and unless it is perfect, which it isn't, then it is sin.
 
JayR, do you believe that there can be any image out there that is perhaps symbolic, but not for worship? Now, I'm sure eveyone knows what this image represents, but nobody worships it. As a symbol it has meaning, but it is not something that is put out there for the express purpose of worship.
 
No, because whether worshipped or not it's very existence is an offence and a corruption of God's glory as a supposed representation of His glory. It is sin, pure and simple. God cannot be fathomed by humanities' fallen imagination, and any attempt to do so is a corruption of God's perfect glory.
 
JayR said:
....God cannot be fathomed by humanities' fallen imagination, and any attempt to do so is a corruption of God's perfect glory.
But did not Jesus, who was God, walk the earth? Did not men see the God-man? And did He not bodily ressurect into heaven? When the word became incarnate, God took on flesh, and in some mystical way, knows what it is like to be a finite being. Thus, the Catechism Of The Catholic Church states:

CCC 2131 - Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of iconsâ€â€of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.

CCC 2132 - The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.

SOURCE:
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3 ... 1.htm#art1
 
Yes, Christ was incarnate absolutely, but He was perfect, and absolutely free from sin. Man is made in the image of God, but has fallen short of the glory of God. Man was made to reflect God's glory, but because of sin that image is marred and corrupted. Christ was the perfect image of God, and His physical and inward man was absolutely flawless. Have you seen His perfect, glorious face? Have you seen His perfect, glorious mannerisms? Can your fallen mind re-create the work of the hands of God? Can anyones? Yes? Blasphemy.
 
jayr,

I want to commend you on being consistent on your position. You say that a cross, picture or statue is the same to you. To this I say amen. They are all the same in a sense ,many of my other protestant brothers separate statues from crosses or pictures. But I want to correct you with some brotherly love. These things point heavenly to God. they help people focus their minds during prayer and keeping their minds focused can better enter into prayer and also be in a state of awareness in your home or elseware. We worship with our 5 senses and our bodies mind soul and spirit. These images aide our finite minds..........Today there are not many world wide that worship an "idol" in the sense you are using it and surely no Christian Catholic or Protestant worships any image. Your focus should be on the idols you, I and others worship... Self, materialism, TV, job, prestige, home, car, etc

Blessings
 
biblecatholic said:
jayr,

I want to commend you on being consistent on your position. You say that a cross, picture or statue is the same to you. To this I say amen. They are all the same in a sense ,many of my other protestant brothers separate statues from crosses or pictures. But I want to correct you with some brotherly love. These things point heavenly to God. they help people focus their minds during prayer and keeping their minds focused can better enter into prayer and also be in a state of awareness in your home or elseware. We worship with our 5 senses and our bodies mind soul and spirit. These images aide our finite minds..........Today there are not many world wide that worship an "idol" in the sense you are using it and surely no Christian Catholic or Protestant worships any image. Your focus should be on the idols you, I and others worship... Self, materialism, TV, job, prestige, home, car, etc

Blessings

Why do catholics pray to mary or to saints to intervene on their behalf? why not pray directly to the lord? why the prayer beads? remember 1 kings 19: 18 ? why do catholics bow to statues of peter, angels, mary and jesus? why do some chruches have gargoyles on them? why do priests kiss the golden chalice and the purple cloths during eucharist? why hold candlelight vigils? why in the dark-is this to counter the event in matthew 24:29?

and why call priests and the pope, father? I thought there was only one father? Matthew 23:8-12

Please explain biblecatholic. is this not idolatry? because neither is god.
 
JayR said:
Ummm - I'm not subject to the commandments. I'm a gentile. The grace of God is sufficient for me.

You're no longer under the curse of the law, and you aren't subject to the wrath of the law if you are a Christian, but you still need to obey God. You can't completely ignore the commandments of God and live in iniquity, if you do, the Bible says in 1 John that you don't know God, and on the day of Judgment Jesus will tell you, "Depart from me, I never knew you, you who work iniquity."

Alright then let me clarify, I have NEVER been under the curse of the law.

And where does it say in 1 John that ignoring the commandments has anything to do with not knowing God?
 
Catholic Crusader,

If I were to offer an image of a 'dog' or a 'cat' and call it Jesus, what would your reaction be? What if I offered an image of a 'horned beast' and called it Jesus? Your reaction then?

Now I ask, what's the difference between ANY image that is NOT an accurate depiction of Christ Himself? What is the distinguishing characteristic that YOU believe makes an 'image' of Christ OK?

ANY 'false image' of Christ or God IS a 'false image'. And in this context we have been OFFERED already that it's WRONG to create such. That there are MANY that do this does NOT make it 'righteous' behavior. That many are UNABLE to 'understand' doesn't alter the TRUTH.

Creativity is what Satan used in the garden to beguile Eve. Creativity is what cause David to stumble. Creativity is what CREATED pornography, pedophilia, heck, lust in general.

We have been instructed that we are to LOVE God above all else and our neighbor as ourselves. Now I ask, ''Where is the LOVE involved with such 'creativity'? When an 'artist' creates, it is done so out of 'self-love' and a desire to be 'recognized'. Now where is the shared love of God and neighbor in ART?

We have been told that a man that is not willing to WORK does NOT deserve to EAT. Do you honestly call 'painting' WORK?

This lack of understanding concerning the 'arts' just goes to show how FAR mankind has veered from the TRUTH.

We have become SO decadent that we 'believe' that it's OK to heap fame and fortune upon the shoulders of those that do NOTHING other than paint pictures, or PLAY GAMES, or sing songs, or ACT out LIES. What IS an actor 'other than a LIAR'? Playing a 'role' that is NOT THEIR OWN. PRETENDING to be 'something' that they ARE NOT. Do YOU call this 'work'?

Just because 'society' has accepted and flocked TO 'something' does NOT make it 'righteous'. We, as Christians, have been WARNED NOT to partake in that which pertains to 'the world'. Yet there are SO MANY that proclaim Christianity that are AS INVOLVED in these aspects of 'the world' AS THE WORLD IN GENERAL.

Has the Word of God CHANGED? People have there is no doubt. But has The Word CHANGED? Is it OK to 'do something' and use the excuse, "Well, that's what EVERYBODY IS DOING"? I think not.

Art IS an expression of SELF. NO TWO WAYS ABOUT IT. And SELF is EXACTLY what caused Satan to FALL. And SELF is EXACTLY what Satan TEACHES. His BIGGEST tool is the ability to convince mankind that THEY are THEIR OWN GODS. That THEY can DO IT THEIR WAY. And it appears as though he is very apt at 'creating the illusion' that we ARE able to BE our OWN GODS.

It comes as NO surprise that those that follow the Catholic faith have been convinced that there is NOTHING WRONG with this 'love' of art. For they have been the ONES MOST responsible for it's introduction into 'religion'. The famous artists of the past were MOSTLY commissioned by the CC for their creations. And HOW could this have been accomplished WITHOUT teaching that it's OK.

Self service is of the devil. Self honor is of the devil. Self recognition is of the devil. PRIDE was HIS DOWNFALL. I guess it's just easier to deny these things than suffer the guilt that would be involved with FACING the TRUTH. But there can BE NO TRUTH without guilt in the hearts of those that willingly go against it.

MEC
 
Why do catholics pray to mary or to saints to intervene on their behalf? why not pray directly to the lord? why the prayer beads? remember 1 kings 19: 18 ? why do catholics bow to statues of peter, angels, mary and jesus? why do some chruches have gargoyles on them? why do priests kiss the golden chalice and the purple cloths during eucharist? why hold candlelight vigils? why in the dark-is this to counter the event in matthew 24:29?

and why call priests and the pope, father? I thought there was only one father? Matthew 23:8-12


Pick up a Cathechism of the Catholic Church and read for yourself. It is a rational thing to go to the source for answers to such important questions as those posted by Archetype. Steet-corner theology can be dangerous for a person.
 
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