Graven Images

[Devekut]

We don't know what Jesus looked like, and that question is irrelevant.

Jesus is all things to all men. To the African, he is painted as an African, to the Asian an Asian, to Da Vinci, a Renaissance man.

The purpose of art is not merely to inform us what Jesus was to people then, but to represent visually who Jesus is to us now.

Christ is the entrance of eternity into history. The events of his life live with us now, give us meaning and direction now, shed light on both the meaning of the past and the present. It is not neccessary that we represent him exactly as he was, in fact, it would be dangerous and foolish to try and attempt only that.

 

[Imagican]

We don't know what Jesus looked like, and that question is irrelevant.

Dave, How can you say such a thing? What if I painted a picture INSPIRED by Satan that actually WAS a depiction of SATAN, but I 'called' it Jesus and sold it as such? Placed in the church as such?
And you say that it's IRRELEVANT?

Jesus is all things to all men. To the African, he is painted as an African, to the Asian an Asian, to Da Vinci, a Renaissance man.

No, SATAN is all things to all men. For the world follows HIM rather than God through His Son. Christ is Lord and Savior to those that ACCEPT Him into their hearts and follow His Commandments.

The purpose of art is not merely to inform us what Jesus was to people then, but to represent visually who Jesus is to us now.

And PLEASE explain to me how a 'picture' of Christ is able to DO anything. For it can neither talk or walk. It offers NOTHING other than the apeasment of the sensuality of man. Just as the Jews were NOT satisfied with an INVISIBLE King and insisted upon a physical, so too does this 'art' indicate that a Spiritual Christ is NOT ENOUGH and one NEEDS a 'physical' material OBJECT in order to represent in the PHYSICAL that which IS Spiritual.

Christ is the entrance of eternity into history. The events of his life live with us now, give us meaning and direction now, shed light on both the meaning of the past and the present. It is not neccessary that we represent him exactly as he was, in fact, it would be dangerous and foolish to try and attempt only that.

I agree with the LAST sentence that you offer. God was/is Eternity. It entered into history the MOMENT of man's creation. For there is ONLY a 'history' if there is someONE to recognize or acknowledge it. Since history as far as man is concerned is BASED on HIM, then I would say that history of man began with His 'creation'.

I realize from the study of the 'theology' of 'your' church that YOU believe that Christ IS the 'Creator'. While I will openly ADMIT that Christ may well have been instrumental in 'Creation', we have been told through The Word that God created man. Exactly HOW this was accomplished neither you nor I can state with authority HOW it was accomplished.

But indeed it would BE foolishness to attempt to create a 'physical likeness' to Christ. Either in 'art' or in ANY other form. That is EXACTLY what I attempt to offer in this thread. And if THIS is NOT what is 'attempted' in the 'production' of artists renditions of Christ, then PLEASE explain to me WHAT IS THE PURPOSE?
MEC

 

[Imagican]

MEC,

Help me out here; are you saying that all art is wrong or just spiritual art?
If you are talking about SOME spiritual art you could have a point, even though I don't agree with the extreme view that you are presenting. There is a big difference between appreciating spiritual art and placing it somewhere, lighting candles around it, burning incense or whatever, and bowing in front of it to worship. The artwork is no mediator.

The more I study the question the MORE I am led to believe that ALL art is vanity.

1 Tim 2:5
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
KJV

Let's talk about one thing in particular, images of Jesus.

We do not know what Jesus Christ looked like, and that may not be an accident. While of course there were no cameras at that time, we do know what many people of 2,000 years ago looked like from drawings, statues or coins that were made of them. And yet none of the many Christians who actually saw Jesus Christ ever produced such an image of Him that we can see today. Perhaps it was because it might have been idolized. We are to worship, bow down to, and pray to God, not to some lifeless picture or statue that is not God or His Son.

If the REASON that there were NO REAL images of Christ HOLDS TRUE, then How could one POSSIBLY believe that a 'false image' of Christ could be ANY DIFFERENT. You have already shown UNDERSTANDING in the question that you posed. You gave yourself YOUR OWN ANSWER. And one NEED NOT literally 'bow down' in order to offer 'worship'. You can 'bow' in your heart through simple submission.

I still believe however that the first three commandments can be better understood if read together. Three by the way is another number in the bible that is meant to indicate completeness or perfection. There are ten commandments. The first three complete our commandments of worship to God. The remaining seven, (another completeness number), perfects our commandments to interact with other human beings and our deeds.

Numerology holds no 'water' here. It SOUNDS good but the 'truth' is that the JEWS understood the commandment PERFECTLY. And the MAIN reason that there are NO 'real' pictures of Jesus is that the JEWS KNEW that the commandment forbid the 'making of graven images'. Study the Jewish and their 'view' of 'art'. Study their 'ancient art'. You'll find that ONLY when returning from the 'captivity' of 'others' had they 'veered' from the commandments. Having LEARNED pagan ways from their captives. And EACH time God sent his prophets to WARN the people to COME BACK to Him. To abandon their IDOLS and 'graven images'. To CEASE to follow in the footsteps of their previous captors and masters.

Thought, word, and deed, complete the sum of human capability.

OK, Now where is 'creativity' in this equation? Creativity is a 'tool' of the DEVIL. For we have ONLY ONE TRUE CREATOR. And for US to attempt to BE 'creators', that is to offer to BE our OWN Gods.

Let me ask this: Is there ANYTHING wrong with 'birth control'? Is there anything wrong with 'cloning humans'? How about abortion? Now, I know that your answer will alighn with TRUTH. But do YOU know WHY these things are WRONG? It's NOT about 'murder'. It's MUCH deeper and much MORE SIMPLE than that. The REASON is that for US to attempt these things is to ATTEMPT to usurp the AUTHORITY of God. To BE OUR OWN GODS. Ignoring WHAT we were 'created' FOR and insert OUR OWN will into the equation. WHO 'gives' life? Even NOW? God gives life. EVERY conception that takes place IS THE WILL OF GOD. Without His WILL there would BE NO LIFE. So WHO 'becomes' God when we decide to 'take control' of this function?

Three denotes divine perfection;
Seven denotes spiritual perfection;

While I agree that 'numbers' are POWERFUL symbols, I avoid the study or 'belief' in them for we are NOT priviledged with the maturity to fully comprehend what POWER they actually hold. They can be used NEGATIVELY as well as POSITIVELY. And you know what happens when we strive to BE more mature than we actually are; Just as EVE brought about the knowledge of Good AND EVIL, so too are we able to 'open cans of worms' that we are UNABLE to control when we begin to dwelve into that which we DO NOT FULLY UNDERSTAND.


Just a thought.

Grace, I am NOT here to 'bring people down'. I am simply attempting to offer understanding that has somehow become LOST on even those that 'claim Christ AS their personal Savior'. I know that my words are hard ones to 'swallow'. The 'truth' ALWAYS has been from the BEGINNING. How many of God's prophets were LAUGHED at and spat upon for their words of TRUTH? this is NO DIFFERENT. The World has infected the churches to the degree that they are no longer even able to discern the truth. Choosing instead to follow the 'NATURE' of mankind rather the holiness of God and His Son. The churches bending their knees to the WILL of the PEOPLE rather than STANDING UP for the WILL OF GOD. Choosing to throw out 'warm fuzzies' rather than the TRUTH. I am offering NOTHING that has not been offered to God's children OVER AND OVER again. COME BACK. Forsake THE WORLD for 'something greater'. LOVE God and follow HIS WILL. If you PROFESS Christ 'as your Savior' LIVE IT. Otherwise, what a WEAK testimony you BECOME and what ineffectual entity do you FORCE Christ to BECOME in the eyes and hearts of others.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I continually struggle with the WAY in which to convey, (in words only), what the PRINCIPLE is here.

But through prayer and thought how about this:

WHO created 'the tree'? Who actually brought it into existence? Now, if your answer is God, then WHO ARE WE TO ATTEMPT to 'do the same' through 'art'? Is this NOT simply an 'attempt' at CREATION. Are we NOT attempting to BE 'the creator' of 'the tree' when we PAINT IT? The picture will NEVER BE 'the tree' But it's AS CLOSE as WE can COME to BEING the 'creator' of IT. This is EXACTLY what Satan desired; To BE the 'Creator'. This is the EXACT 'nature' that LED to his FALL. Attempting to USURP the authority OF THE CREATOR.

Now, what IS 'art' other than an 'attempt to CREATE'? And LOOK at the HONOR we place upon the 'shoulders' of those that are MOST successful at this 'creation'. Money, fame, honor, glory.......... And these characteristics are ONLY to be SHOWERED UPON GOD.

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

To me, this thread proves what I posted some time back, that The commandment about “graven images†is one of the most misunderstood scriptures.

Once again, I ask you to consider Exodus 25: 18-19: “And make two cherubim out of hammered gold at the ends of the cover. Make one cherub on one end and the second cherub on the other; make the cherubim of one piece with the cover, at the two ends.†Here, God is commanding that images be made! So they cannot be bad, or else God would not command it.

As I said, the original Hebrew words that were translated into “graven image†referred to idols (Here is the concordance link: http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi ... ongs=06459 ). Of course, we know that an idol is a false god..

Statues in Catholic Churches are not a violation of the commandment either. They are not idols, because they are not false Gods. My Church has a statue of an angel, just like God commanded the Israelites to make. We have a statue of Jesus, who is CERTAINLY not a false God. We have statues of saints because they are heroes of the faith, not gods - just like America has statues of its heroes – Washington, Lincoln, etc. – and those are not idols either.

The commandments forbid images of false idols or false gods, but there is nothing wrong with beautiful artwork of Jesus, Mary, or angels, whether that artwork be paintings, statues, or whatever.

 

[Abimael]

Excellent point...But still what if you are wrong. I'm sure that his image could have been passed among Christian brothers. They proclaimed the named of Jesus an were killed for this...but left out images of him to be passed down through history...hum sounds like you are simply assuming and making excuses. My question was not answered by your response.

Persecutions have not stopped.

I still do not agree wiht Mec's extreme position on art...but the question still remains a mystery of why we have no clue what Jesus looked like.

If am wrong than Christians have been practicing idolatry for thousands of years and are now all most likely burning in hell.

I am no more assuming than those who assume that they didn't, many things which were made 2000 years ago are no longer in existence today, paintings and statues etc. aren't exactly indestructible in fact they are usually quite delicate and require careful maintenance, even the original books of the Gospel have not survived intact from the first three centuries of Christianity, do you think then that a painting would be given more care than the Gospels?

There is also the fact that such Christian art if found would have been destroyed by the authorities as I previously mentioned. You also have to remember they did not have the printing press so mass production of pictures was not a possibility. Then there is the fact that works of art much as they are today are largely affordable only by the rich and most of the early Christians were poor. Also you have not considered the existence of Christian art in the catacombs which I mentioned previously some of which has been dated to the 1st century.

Are you threatened with death for been a Christian in your country?

The picture I previously posted comes from the shroud of Turin which many believe is the true image of Christ from His time on earth, certainly modern scientists despite their best efforts have not been able to disprove this. Look into it let me know what you think.

God Bless

 

[Catholic Crusader]

We have failed to address another purpose for imagery: The purpose of telling a story. For centuries in medieval times and before, people could not read. People lived in a village, never travelled more than a mile from it, and died at age 35 - probably toothless. These people could not read (which is why it wouldn't have mattered if Bibles were largely available or not).

Artwork could often tell the story of the Bible for those who could not read. Even Bibles were ornately decorated with pictures to aid the reader

 

[GraceBwithU]

If am wrong than Christians have been practicing idolatry for thousands of years and are now all most likely burning in hell.

I actually only asked the question to stir comments. I’m not saying that creating spiritual art is wrong. The only comment that I made that mentions idolatry is that they may not have created it because they may have feared it would be idolized. This is not the same as saying that they did not create it because it was idolatry to create it. You should read some of my other post before this one. Relax.

There is also the fact that such Christian art if found would have been destroyed by the authorities as I previously mentioned. You also have to remember they did not have the printing press so mass production of pictures was not a possibility. Then there is the fact that works of art much as they are today are largely affordable only by the rich and most of the early Christians were poor. Also you have not considered the existence of Christian art in the catacombs which I mentioned previously some of which has been dated to the 1st century.

And we still do not know what Jesus looked like. So you are saying that the Shroud of Turin survived all of this but not one single image of Jesus. The Shroud, if authentic is not art. It is something else. And by the way it is used today in a way that could easily be considered idolatry. Something the early Christians that had seen Jesus may have feared would happen to any image of him.

I think it is more logical that images of him never existed. But we may never know really why we do not have any art of him. We have false art images of Him but no true art images as far as I know.

I’ll say again. I would like to make this clear. I am not saying that spiritual art is idolatry, but the bowing before it to worship or pray surely is. :wink:

 

[GraceBwithU]

We have failed to address another purpose for imagery: The purpose of telling a story. For centuries in medieval times and before, people could not read. People lived in a village, never travelled more than a mile from it, and died at age 35 - probably toothless. These people could not read (which is why it wouldn't have mattered if Bibles were largely available or not).

Artwork could often tell the story of the Bible for those who could not read. Even Bible were ornately decorated with pictures to aid the reader

Agreed

 

[Imagican]

Excellent point...But still what if you are wrong. I'm sure that his image could have been passed among Christian brothers. They proclaimed the named of Jesus an were killed for this...but left out images of him to be passed down through history...hum sounds like you are simply assuming and making excuses. My question was not answered by your response.

Persecutions have not stopped.

I still do not agree wiht Mec's extreme position on art...but the question still remains a mystery of why we have no clue what Jesus looked like.

If am wrong than Christians have been practicing idolatry for thousands of years and are now all most likely burning in hell.

I don't KNOW that ANYONE 'is' burning in hell at this moment. But I DO know that we have been warned AGAIST 'graven images'. The Jews were WELL versed in the commandment GIVEN TO THEM. You will find SCARCE evidence of their 'creating graven images' for MOST of their existence. There is a REASON for this. Go back into the OT and read the warnings offered by the prophets OVER AND OVER again.

But I can offer this as well. The CC has ACCEPTED MANY practices that are AGAINST what has been offered in The Word. The Christmas Tree for example was SPECIFICALLY discribed and the Jews were TOLD NOT to be 'like the hethen gentiles that would "worship" such a 'thing'. Yet the CC promotes such and refuses to even acknowlede the warning AGAINST such a practice.

And in this respect, the Protestant churches have faired little better.

I am no more assuming than those who assume that they didn't, many things which were made 2000 years ago are no longer in existence today, paintings and statues etc. aren't exactly indestructible in fact they are usually quite delicate and require careful maintenance, even the original books of the Gospel have not survived intact from the first three centuries of Christianity, do you think then that a painting would be given more care than the Gospels?

MUCH of what you refer to was NOT as 'delicate' as you propopse. MOST of what you refer to was DESTROYED purposely by those that wished to 'promote' their OWN agenda, (be it political, cultural, or as in MOST cases; religious).

The apostles WERE Jewish FIRST and Christian SECOND. So, in this respect, they wouldn't have DARED reproduce a 'likeness' of Christ. NO, there were NONE of THESE LOST. They NEVER existed.

There is also the fact that such Christian art if found would have been destroyed by the authorities as I previously mentioned. You also have to remember they did not have the printing press so mass production of pictures was not a possibility. Then there is the fact that works of art much as they are today are largely affordable only by the rich and most of the early Christians were poor. Also you have not considered the existence of Christian art in the catacombs which I mentioned previously some of which has been dated to the 1st century.

Ah, you 'hit on a pretty significant point'; MOST who EVER were able to AFFORD 'art' were RICH. And WHAT exactly does Christ state concerning the RICH being ABLE to 'receive the reward' that He offered? And what do we observe so far as the CC is concerned with 'art'? MOST of the ancient 'greats' were COMMISSIONED by the CC to 'create' their 'works'.

Are you threatened with death for been a Christian in your country?

There is LITTLE 'ability' to TRULY 'live for Christ' in America. For this country is MORE concerned with 'personal wealth' than a 'community' where ALL are able to 'partake' in a 'communal fashion'. So the answer is NO. It is easy to 'say' one is a Christian in America WITHOUT being 'persecuted' for 'saying such'. But to LIVE as 'Christ' would be to become an OUTCAST as in most ANY 'society'.

The picture I previously posted comes from the shroud of Turin which many believe is the true image of Christ from His time on earth, certainly modern scientists despite their best efforts have not been able to disprove this. Look into it let me know what you think.

Not true. MOST 'unbiased' scientist that have been ALLOWED to study it have concluded that MOST of it's elements point to a MUCH MORE RECENT production. And IT is HIGHLY suspect in that there is NO OTHER example that it can be compared to. In other words, MOST Jews were 'prepared for burial' in the SAME such manner as described for the 'preparation' of Christ. Yet there are NO examples of an 'image' being LEFT on OTHER burial clothes. Suspect indeed. this is just 'another' example of the 'church's' collecting of 'false images'. Crying statues, figures in the sky, the 'shroud of Turin'. No different.

God Bless

So, in conclusion:

Will heaping 'honor' or 'glory' upon 'graven images' DESTROY one's soul? I can't answer that. I can offer that in my OPINION, this 'honor and glory' is NOTHING other than a 'form of worship'. The FACT that so many defend this 'art', is a PRIME indication of their LOVE for it. Love that goes BEYOND their 'love for God or neighbor'. For IF there was NO LOVE of such items, giving them up for the sake of God's Word would NOT be an issue.

I will offer that to 'go against' God's Word CANNOT bring one CLOSER to God. He has His REASONS for the 'things' He has commanded. I have offered MUCH speculation of the POSSIBLE reasons that we were 'warned against' graven images. It may be MUCH deeper than the 'simple explanations' that I have offered. But what I have offered is ENOUGH to warrant a 'serious' exploration into the NATURE of 'graven images' and HOW we 'deal with them'.

We can easily 'look back' at the Hebrew/Jewish community of the past and PLAINLY SEE that they did NOT focus on 'art' or 'graven images' UNTIL they 'picked this up' from other cultures to whom they were enslaved. And EACH time the prophets of God were SENT to warn the people to ABANDON these images and 'turn BACK to God'.

Who, if NOT the Hebrews/Jews would have a 'better understanding' of the DEFINITION of 'graven images'? The Greeks and Romans religions PREVIOUS to Christianity being introduced into their culture were SERIOUS amirers of 'art'. They fashioned all sorts of gods from stone and paint. THE 'purpose' of such WAS to WORSHIP them. These 'material items of art' WERE considered to BE 'actual representations' OF these gods here on earth. And perhaps this is eXACTLY 'why' those that LOVE and TRUST God were WARNED against it. To 'separate themselves' from those that 'live for this world'.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Oh, and for those that have ignored by past answer to this issue:

The REASON that the 'artwork' used to decorate the ark was NOT in violation to this commandment of 'graven images' is THIS:

God COMMANDED It. It WAS for HIS GLORY and NOT something simply 'thought up' by those that 'created it'. God IS able to commission WHATEVER He wills. That this answer is NOT obvious to those that keep 'bringing it up' offers speculation into their 'understanding of God's will' It would seem to impose THEIR will and their UNDERSTANDING in the place that is reserved for GOD.

God's commandments stated that we are NOT to KILL. But God Himself has ORDER KILLING over and over again. God is NOT confined by His Commandments. These were LAWS meant to TEACH those that they were "GIVEN TO". Just as I CAN tell my son NOT to play with guns. That does NOT make it WRONG for ME to DO SO. I offer these rules for the PROTECTION of my son who MAY NOT KNOW ANY BETTER YET. Just like I wouldn't allow my seven year old son to drive my car to the movies. There is a certain amount of 'understanding' that went along with the commandments that was NOT able to BE understood at the TIME that they were given. Those that they were GIVEN to were OBVIOUSLY very IMMATURE 'Spiritually' and THIS WAS the MAIN reason that the commandments were given. To protect them FROM THEMSELVES and from the WORLD.

The food laws of the Hebrews/Jews were NOT offered to 'confine' their diet for the SAKE of CONTROL. These laws were OFFERED FOR THEIR PROTECTION. So that seeing others eating certain possibly DANGEROUS foods, God's chosen wouldn't take the chance on damaging themselves by partaking of the same. Since God has ALWAYS provided for those that LOVE HIM, the Hebrews/Jews, so long as they offered their OBEDIENCE to God, would NEVER have SUCH a NEED for food that they would NEED eat UNCLEAN animals. So LONG as they were obedient, God would PROVIDE them CLEAN food for their nourishment. Yet some peoples were NOT blessed in such a 'way' by God. For these, sometimes they were forced to eat MANY 'things' that were potentially DEADLY.

MEC

 

[Abimael]

I don't KNOW that ANYONE 'is' burning in hell at this moment. But I DO know that we have been warned AGAIST 'graven images'.

What is your defintion of graven images?

But I can offer this as well. The CC has ACCEPTED MANY practices that are AGAINST what has been offered in The Word. The Christmas Tree for example was SPECIFICALLY discribed and the Jews were TOLD NOT to be 'like the hethen gentiles that would "worship" such a 'thing'. Yet the CC promotes such and refuses to even acknowlede the warning AGAINST such a practice.

And in this respect, the Protestant churches have faired little better.

We are CHRISTIANS not Jews, the Old law of the Old Covenant is ended, Jesus brought in a new covenant which included the heathen gentiles, read the Gospels and you will see Christ did not follow the letter of the old law. AND people do not worship their Christmas Trees.

Do you live in a cave in the desert with no material possessions?

MUCH of what you refer to was NOT as 'delicate' as you propopse. MOST of what you refer to was DESTROYED purposely by those that wished to 'promote' their OWN agenda, (be it political, cultural, or as in MOST cases; religious).

Prove it.

The apostles WERE Jewish FIRST and Christian SECOND. So, in this respect, they wouldn't have DARED reproduce a 'likeness' of Christ. NO, there were NONE of THESE LOST. They NEVER existed.

Not true they were followers of Christ first, anything else would have been an insult to Christ, have you even read the New Testament? Can you prove that they wouldn't have dared? No you can't. They did a lot of things that were condemned by the Jews why do you think it was that they were always been threatened with death by the Jews who had rejected the Messiah?

Are you a Christian or a Jew?

Ah, you 'hit on a pretty significant point'; MOST who EVER were able to AFFORD 'art' were RICH. And WHAT exactly does Christ state concerning the RICH being ABLE to 'receive the reward' that He offered? And what do we observe so far as the CC is concerned with 'art'? MOST of the ancient 'greats' were COMMISSIONED by the CC to 'create' their 'works'.

I cannot think of many better uses for wealth than to honor God by offering to Him the best we have to offer, is it not right that God's house should be the best house in the town? Christ says it will be difficult, but he did not say impossible nor did he condemn the wealthy outright, Christ was not a communist.

Not true. MOST 'unbiased' scientist that have been ALLOWED to study it have concluded that MOST of it's elements point to a MUCH MORE RECENT production.

How can you say not true and then say "most", clearly there is no conclusive scientific consensus concerning it. There is a very good explanation why those scientists got it wrong who say it was a recent production if you care to look for it.

And IT is HIGHLY suspect in that there is NO OTHER example that it can be compared to. In other words, MOST Jews were 'prepared for burial' in the SAME such manner as described for the 'preparation' of Christ. Yet there are NO examples of an 'image' being LEFT on OTHER burial clothes.

Christ was no ordinary man though was He, it is miraculous I grant you but Christ was a miracle worker and the God of the Christians is an Almighty God, if our God is the same God of the Bible it would be more unlikely if he did not continue to work miracles through His chosen servants.

WE are not talking about the burial of an ordinary Jew and you demean Christ with your comparison.

 

[Vic C.]

Easy now people, we can read. No need for bold or large bold, except in places for emphesis.

 

[Imagican]

We have failed to address another purpose for imagery: The purpose of telling a story. For centuries in medieval times and before, people could not read. People lived in a village, never travelled more than a mile from it, and died at age 35 - probably toothless. These people could not read (which is why it wouldn't have mattered if Bibles were largely available or not).

Artwork could often tell the story of the Bible for those who could not read. Even Bibles were ornately decorated with pictures to aid the reader

And I would propose that there has NEVER been a 'picture' created that can tell the TRUTH of Christ OR His Father. And the potential 'harm' that 'graven images' can offer FAR outweighs ANY potential benefit.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

abimael,

I will address your replies in individual threads to help keep them down to smaller sizes.

My definition of a 'graven image' is EXACTLY that offered in The Word:

Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."

That pretty much sums it up.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Yes, the commandments WERE given to the Jews. But they were given for a 'reason'. They were the 'school masters' for those that didn't KNOW any better. The first set of commandments were offered in order to TEACH 'love of God'. The second set were given to TEACH 'love of neighbor'. But they were designed to offer GUIDANCE regardless of RACE. For we plainly see the evidence that 'strangers' WERE allowed among the Jews but were EXPECTED to live 'by their laws'.

NO, I do NOT live in a cave. I am a 'member' of the society that I 'live in'. I possess most of the modern conviences that the average citizen of the US does. But that does NOT alter 'understanding'. I live in a society that THRIVES on 'lying'. I myself AM a 'liar'. But that doesn't alter the FACT that lying is WRONG.

I live in a society that thrives upon STEALING. I am a 'thief' in the technical terms offered within The Word. But that doesn't ALTER my understanding of it BEING WRONG.

I have YET to 'claim' to be 'perfect'. I am NOT 'sinless' as 'some' would offer claim to BE. i am a sinner that is BOUND to ask for forgiveness DAILY. But that doesn't alter the TRUTH. For IF i were to delude myself into BELIEVING that I am 'without sin', ONLY at THIS point would I become VOID of understanding.

It's IMPOSSIBLE to 'understand' without FIRST being able to ACCEPT understanding. Some would simply IGNORE understanding for the sake of 'guilt'. I, on the other hand, REVEL in that 'understanding that has been offered'. Even though through it the Spirit CONVICTS me of my sins. WITHOUT It I would simply BE a sinner WITHOUT conviction. And therefore would be WITHOUT forgiveness. For there to BE forgiveness there MUST be repentance. And BEFORE repentance IS POSSIBLE, there MUST be 'conviction' FIRST.

So, while I AM a sinner and there is MUCH in my life that is UNRIGHTEOUS, through 'understanding' am I ABLE to come to repentance and ask for STRENGTH to overcome that which I am TOO weak to defeat on MY OWN. And you know what? God LOVES me for it. NOT THE SIN, but the FACT that I am willing to ACCEPT responsibility for my shortcomings and ASK for forgiveness. That's basically ALL God asks of us to begin with.

But, IF I were to simply DENY that sin that is in my life for the LUST of it, then there could BE NO FORGIVENESS. For THAT would be OUTRIGHT rebelion AGAINST The Spirit which is ABLE to convict. If I were to DO THIS long enough, (rebel AGAINST The Spirit through DENIAL), the Spirit would eventually be impotent in it's ABILTY to offer TRUE guidance. At this point I would have OPENED myself up to 'other spirits' and it would be through THEIR guidance that I would base my understanding.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

The PROOF that you seek is RIGHT in front of your eyes. The CC DESTROYED ANYTHING that was of NO VALUE to their SYSTEM. Whether it was 'writtings' that disputed their authority, PEOPLE that disputed their authority, they simply burned them.

So, I can offer little PROOF of what has BEEN destroyed. But the historical evidence exists that this IS exactly what happened. The CC itself offers admission that they DESTROYED ANYTHING that they DEEMED heretical. From their definition of such that would included ANYTHING that disputed their authority. And my words here are Proven by their OWn DOGMA.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Not true they were followers of Christ first, anything else would have been an insult to Christ, have you even read the New Testament? Can you prove that they wouldn't have dared? No you can't. They did a lot of things that were condemned by the Jews why do you think it was that they were always been threatened with death by the Jews who had rejected the Messiah?

Are you a Christian or a Jew?

This one is AMAZING in it's ignorance.

We have the story of the conversions of some of the apostles. We have the WORD of Paul himself stating that of the JEWS he was trained in their religion MORE than most. He was a member of the religious ELITE. Working for them as he sought out 'Christians' to persecute.

You ask if I have read the NT. Yes, my friend, I have. Over and over again. I read completely THROUGH it on the average of about once or twice a month.

I am a 'believer in Christ and His Father, God'. I was NOT 'born' of Jewish descent if that is your question. My lineage so far as ethnicity is concerned is Irish, Scottish from the OLD country but I am as American as 'apple pie'. So I guess you would say that I am a WASP. But that last letter would ONLY apply for my NOT 'being a Catholic'. For myself, I do NOT consider myself to BE a 'Protestant'. I have NOT separated myself from the CC anymore that I have JOINED the Protestant denominations.

What I wonder here is what you are 'trying to say'. For I MUST be 'misunderstanding' something concerning your actual statements. You can't REALLY be offering that the apostles were NOT Jews FIRST?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

This is beginning to 'feel' like something out of the 'Twilight Zone'.

Like the proverbial 'battle with an unarmed man'.

I guess you have the RIGHT to your own opinion so far as 'the best house in the hood' statement.

But, if you will READ the NT you will find that upon the ACTUAL 'death' of Christ, the CURTAIN in the Temple was 'rent in two'. There is MEANING behind this; At that point God basically 'left the house'. We have been told that SINCE then a NEW covenant has been created and instituted in which the TEMPLE is NOW within the hearts of those that ALLOW Christ to dwell there. In simple terms; The temple is NOW in the hearts of those that LOVE Christ and live by His commandments.

And let me ask you this: Have you EVER attempted to 'squeeze a camel through the eye of a needle'? I believe that you would find it pretty much IMPOSSIBLE.

Now we have been told that what is impossible for man is NOT impossible for God. So I cannot STATE whether there will be 'rich folks' in heaven or not. All I have to go by are the words offered by Christ and His apostles. Also there is a little bit of information concerning 'rich people' offered by Christ's MOTHER. Have you read that part?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I refuse to debate the 'shroud issue' any more than I have already done. Some wish to believe it and the Bible clearly states that there will be those that choose to 'follow lies' and for THESE God will offer STRONG delusion so that they WILL BELIEVE the lies.

So, I 'believe' that it's FALSE information. A creation of 'someone'. I 'believe' it to BE a hoax of some sort.

What you or others believe is what you CHOOSE to 'believe'

MEC