...greater works than these shall he do

[Classik]

John 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believes on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Particularly, 'greater works than these shall he do' what does the expression mean?:dunno

If it means, if Christ healed 10 lepers you will heal 50, then, when?
Is that possible with a single man (knowing that HE performed uncountable miracles)?
When is that supposed to take place in someone's life?

 

[Former Christian]

Classik

Forgiving sins in a ceremony that includes a whole lot of people? Haven't heard of any trees having changed their location lately, have you? Or a bush shriveling on the word of an individual?

NC

 

[Classik]

Classik

Forgiving sins in a ceremony that includes a whole lot of people? Haven't heard of any trees having changed their location lately, have you? Or a bush shriveling on the word of an individual?

NC

I'm really trying to figure out what that verse is really talking about: whether 'greatness' or 'number'.

 

[Chris.]

Starting church and writing a bible that brings billions into heaven might be what Jesus had in mind.

The same spirit in in us that raised Jesus from the dead and allowed him to perform miracles he did.

I believe...and I believe we can and should try!

Doubt and scepticism creates the barrier to it happening. It is only that that limits the power of the holy spirit if everything else is fine.

 

[Kidron]

Classik

Forgiving sins in a ceremony that includes a whole lot of people? Haven't heard of any trees having changed their location lately, have you? Or a bush shriveling on the word of an individual?

NC

Nice case of doubt you have there.
Glad its not contageous;)

 

[DavidThompson]

Particularly, 'greater works than these shall he do' what does the expression mean?:dunno

If it means, if Christ healed 10 lepers you will heal 50, then, when?
Is that possible with a single man (knowing that HE performed uncountable miracles)?
When is that supposed to take place in someone's life?

You should look behind the word to get a sound meaning. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3187&t=KJV

Also, you will do these works when you believe. Anyone who tries to tell you that healing and the casting out of demons are not available today - you REBUKE that demon of doubt in the name of Jesus. You need to get around people who keep the Commandments and believe the Word of God.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

 

[tessiewebb]

You should look behind the word to get a sound meaning. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3187&t=KJV

Also, you will do these works when you believe. Anyone who tries to tell you that healing and the casting out of demons are not available today - you REBUKE that demon of doubt in the name of Jesus. You need to get around people who keep the Commandments and believe the Word of God.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

I agree with the rest of your post but this "You need to get around people who keep the Commandments and believe the Word of God." Either it is an oxymoron or you are speaking only of the commandments of Jesus.

 

[DavidThompson]

I agree with the rest of your post but this "You need to get around people who keep the Commandments and believe the Word of God." Either it is an oxymoron or you are speaking only of the commandments of Jesus.

I'm sure Christians have told you that these 2 are contradictory to each other. Of course, if you believe in Mal 3:6 that God does not change, then please go read Deut 28 and now you will understand why people have demons in the first place - you are under a curse. Please check out 'Pastor Dowell' on youtube if you have more questions.

 

[tessiewebb]

I'm really trying to figure out what that verse is really talking about: whether 'greatness' or 'number'.

The works Jesus did, raising the dead, healing the sick and infirm, walking on water, changing water into wine, preaching the gospel of the Kingdom, feeding the thousands with little or nothing in the way of supplies, etc, are being done in greater measure because Christianity is composed of millions of people. He was one. But I also believe there is a deeper meaning than just the numbers of people doing these works. I suspect it has something to do with the "power from on high", also known as "the promise of the Father", that is, the Holy Spirit indwelling us. There are many scriptures that promise power to do miraculous works to Christians and I believe it is very little spoken of or believed on. That is why we see so little of anything but preaching and feeding the hungry and even then we do not consider either miraculous.

 

[tessiewebb]

I'm sure Christians have told you that these 2 are contradictory to each other. Of course, if you believe in Mal 3:6 that God does not change, then please go read Deut 28 and now you will understand why people have demons in the first place - you are under a curse. Please check out 'Pastor Dowell' on youtube if you have more questions.

I don't see any questions in my post. Jesus fulfilled the law and if He did not then it's not "you are under a curse" but we are ALL under a curse. Including you. Since it was God speaking the words in Deut 28, I hardly think He meant He would cause the cursed to be demon possessed. You might want to check the NT.

 

[Classik]

You should look behind the word to get a sound meaning. http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3187&t=KJV

Also, you will do these works when you believe. Anyone who tries to tell you that healing and the casting out of demons are not available today - you REBUKE that demon of doubt in the name of Jesus. You need to get around people who keep the Commandments and believe the Word of God.

Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Thanks alot for your reply, and Welcome to CF.net

The link is quite interesting.

 

[Classik]

The works Jesus did, raising the dead, healing the sick and infirm, walking on water, changing water into wine, preaching the gospel of the Kingdom, feeding the thousands with little or nothing in the way of supplies, etc, are being done in greater measure because Christianity is composed of millions of people. He was one. But I also believe there is a deeper meaning than just the numbers of people doing these works. I suspect it has something to do with the "power from on high", also known as "the promise of the Father", that is, the Holy Spirit indwelling us. There are many scriptures that promise power to do miraculous works to Christians and I believe it is very little spoken of or believed on. That is why we see so little of anything but preaching and feeding the hungry and even then we do not consider either miraculous.

You know, I discussed this issue with my sister and almost all you've written is what she told me.

Thanks

 

[Kidron]

The works Jesus did, raising the dead, healing the sick and infirm, walking on water, changing water into wine, preaching the gospel of the Kingdom, feeding the thousands with little or nothing in the way of supplies, etc, are being done in greater measure because Christianity is composed of millions of people. He was one. But I also believe there is a deeper meaning than just the numbers of people doing these works. I suspect it has something to do with the "power from on high", also known as "the promise of the Father", that is, the Holy Spirit indwelling us. There are many scriptures that promise power to do miraculous works to Christians and I believe it is very little spoken of or believed on. That is why we see so little of anything but preaching and feeding the hungry and even then we do not consider either miraculous.

Jesus was performing miracles because he came to the Jews (House of Israel) who require a sign to believe in a Messiah... 1st Corin 1:22.....John 2:18..and "signs are for the Jew"...1st Corin 14:22

Regarding us, the problem is..........church has become a place where one person controls the situation from the pulpit, and unless he is letting the Spirit lead the service, then he is often just doing an exercise in practicing his theology on you twice on Sunday.
Church, is supposed to be a place where you worship, feed, pray, and receive doctrinally correct teaching so that you become as quickly as possible a mature Christian who can then go out and win the lost and disciple YOUR converts.
Unfortunately, many churches, and certainly many of the larger TV ministries, are all about entertaining the baby sheep.

Church should be fun, and it should be informative, and it should be a place you can unwind from the world's dirty bonds and submerge yourself in the presence of God for a refilling of your holy zeal,.... but it has to be a place were you are taught correct bible doctrine and are strongly convicted to live holy, and be a light in your world of influence.

If your church is not teaching you your divine position in Christ and the authority you have as a Son of God to execute God's will........if your church is not teaching you sound bible docrtrine, regarding grace, faith, holiness, and love, ......if your church is not causing you to be concerned to deeply care that you are not winning enough souls.......then something is wrong with your church.

Your church should be supporting at least 1 full time missionary for every 100 people.
And you should find out how many churches have been birthed by young pastors who started their christian life in your church.
If your church is 10 years old, and you have no other churches started by young ministers who were birthed out of your church, then your church is not about soul winning.
Its about something else, and whatever that is, is not right.


My church has been around for about 30 years.
My pastor has started 3 churches, all still operating, and he has created 2 full time seminaries with one being a large Christian university as well.
We , with him as the pastor,..,. as a group of 5 or 600, support 40 full time missionaries and have over 140 full time pastors in full time worldwide churches that were all birthed out of this one little modest church that has no choir loft, no big screen showing the pastor's huge ultra white teeth, and the building we worship in, is metal on the sides and has brick on the front.

Im (lowly me) one of the people who is a product of this church.......and im in Israel.
Im not sitting in the USA, in front of an Iphone, playing with apps, or barking braindead texts all day into Facebook..
I dont even own a cell phone or a big screen TV or a Car..... and im the person who wrote the Threads here entitled.."Double prosperity", and "Your identity in Christ", and "Power to become" ....... that you should print out and study so that your faith can become real and useful.
Yeah, REALLY...


http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42560&highlight=
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42676&highlight=
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42635&highlight=


I dont even use a concordance when i write to you and talk to you or teach you regarding the scriptures.
I dont own one.........
And if you are wondering if i have access to a really nice car, and have access to a really nice TV and cable, and do i have access to a phone and a laptop and everything else i need or use ither for the ministry or for personal satisfaction........well OF COURSE I DO.........as i have access to God's riches in Glory and everything i need, money, car, home, electronic goodies....handmade guitars, ......i am so blessed, because God is so good and he wants all of us to PROSPER as that is the will of God for all his Children...;)



be blessed,




K

 

[Classik]

no big screen showing the pastor's huge ultra white teeth,

:toofunny
Please do not make me laugh idiotically again.

 

[Kidron]

:toofunny
Please do not make me laugh idiotically again.

you enjoyed that as much as i did?
glad i could bring you some joy to start your day...
A merry heart doeth good like a medicine...:yes

And, it is interesting to watch TV preachers these days, isn't it?..
And im pretty sure that some of them use big screens to reproduce their faces to be say...10x10 sq feet?
So, if you factor in front teeth, you are looking at teeth that are at least a foot high.
Mature Sperm whales dont have teeth that large...(or that white).

Now there is one TV preacher, (whom shall remain nameless),.. however, ive seen extended closeups of his face that he likes to continually offer his audience during his presentation, and all you see are teeth.
Teeth, teeth, teeth., like a neon white picket fence surrounded by lips.
He's like watching a 30 min add for advanced dental whitening, while you generally get a watered down feel good gospel message also for your time well wasted.
I find this very entertaining.

One other thing i like to compare is who has the best tanning booth tan among the TV evangelists//TV preachers.
I know whom i think it is, but i wont say, as this could be perceived as disrespect here among the devout brethren.., and i'd never want to disrespect a TV Preacher's tan, ...especially after they spent so much time and money to perfect it.




K

 

[tessiewebb]

Jesus was performing miracles because he came to the Jews (House of Israel) who require a sign to believe in a Messiah... 1st Corin 1:22.....John 2:18..and "signs are for the Jew"...1st Corin 14:22

Regarding us, the problem is..........church has become a place where one person controls the situation from the pulpit, and unless he is letting the Spirit lead the service, then he is often just doing an exercise in practicing his theology on you twice on Sunday. Church, is supposed to be a place where you worship, feed, pray, and receive doctrinally correct teaching so that you become as quickly as possible a mature Christian who can then go out and win the lost and disciple YOUR converts. Unfortunately, many churches, and certainly many of the larger TV ministries, are all about entertaining the baby sheep.

Church should be fun, and it should be informative, and it should be a place you can unwind from the world's dirty bonds and submerge yourself in the presence of God for a refilling of your holy zeal,.... but it has to be a place were you are taught correct bible doctrine and are strongly convicted to live holy, and be a light in your world of influence.

If your church is not teaching you your divine position in Christ and the authority you have as a Son of God to execute God's will........if your church is not teaching you sound bible doctrine, regarding grace, faith, holiness, and love, ......if your church is not causing you to be concerned to deeply care that you are not winning enough souls.......then something is wrong with your church.

Your church should be supporting at least 1 full time missionary for every 100 people. And you should find out how many churches have been birthed by young pastors who started their christian life in your church. If your church is 10 years old, and you have no other churches started by young ministers who were birthed out of your church, then your church is not about soul winning. Its about something else, and whatever that is, is not right.


My church has been around for about 30 years. My pastor has started 3 churches, all still operating, and he has created 2 full time seminaries with one being a large Christian university as well. We, with him as the pastor,..,. as a group of 5 or 600, support 40 full time missionaries and have over 140 full time pastors in full time worldwide churches that were all birthed out of this one little modest church that has no choir loft, no big screen showing the pastor's huge ultra white teeth, and the building we worship in, is metal on the sides and has brick on the front.

Im (lowly me) one of the people who is a product of this church.......and im in Israel. Im not sitting in the USA, in front of an Iphone, playing with apps, or barking braindead texts all day into Facebook..I dont even own a cell phone or a big screen TV or a Car..... and im the person who wrote the Threads here entitled.."Double prosperity", and "Your identity in Christ", and "Power to become" ....... that you should print out and study so that your faith can become real and useful.
Yeah, REALLY...


http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42560&highlight=
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42676&highlight=
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=42635&highlight=


I dont even use a concordance when i write to you and talk to you or teach you regarding the scriptures. I dont own one.........And if you are wondering if i have access to a really nice car, and have access to a really nice TV and cable, and do i have access to a phone and a laptop and everything else i need or use either for the ministry or for personal satisfaction........well OF COURSE I DO.........as i have access to God's riches in Glory and everything i need, money, car, home, electronic goodies....handmade guitars, ......i am so blessed, because God is so good and he wants all of us to PROSPER as that is the will of God for all his Children...;) be blessed,K

I'm sorry, K, but this post is so borderline right on so many levels and I'm sure you don't see it at all. Might even take umbrage at what I'm saying. I'm going to ask you to count the number of times you used "I" and "should" in this post.

I can feel your joy at how blessed you are and I share in your joy for you. I also believe with you that all of God's children could prosper and be in health. What is troublesome is the underlying message that if His children are sick and poverty stricken, there is something wrong with their part of the Body. I do not think that is an encouraging message. It sounds more like a schoolyard taunt.

And, one last thing, your use of the word "church" as in "my church" and "your church" is truly wrong. The entire Body is the "church". And as Paul pointed out, no one part is more needed than the other. In fact, I believe he said the less honorable parts are the ones that get the greatest covering.

Lastly, and personally, I reject your implication that my faith is not "real and useful". First because I, like all of His children who are actively seeking His kingdom and righteousness, am "working out my own salvation with fear and trembling". Secondly because the posts you believe we should "print out and study" have the same taunting tone that this one does, it would be very difficult for them to be helpful to me or anyone else who senses the disdain.

Above and beyond all that, though, kidron, I believe you do have a heart for the Body at large and desire that we should all prosper.

 

[tessiewebb]

You know, I discussed this issue with my sister and almost all you've written is what she told me. Thanks

Good to know and thank you for sharing that.

 

[tessiewebb]

Starting church and writing a bible that brings billions into heaven might be what Jesus had in mind.

The same spirit in in us that raised Jesus from the dead and allowed him to perform miracles he did.

I believe...and I believe we can and should try!

Doubt and scepticism creates the barrier to it happening. It is only that that limits the power of the holy spirit if everything else is fine.

True and very succinctly put.

 

[Kidron]

I'm sorry, K, but this post is so borderline right on so many levels and I'm sure you don't see it at all. Might even take umbrage at what I'm saying. I'm going to ask you to count the number of times you used "I" and "should" in this post.


Well, first of all, if im giving my partial testimony, then im allowed to say "I";)
So, Id ask you to count the number of times im right in the post.
Isnt that the main thing?


I can feel your joy at how blessed you are and I share in your joy for you. I also believe with you that all of God's children could prosper and be in health. What is troublesome is the underlying message that if His children are sick and poverty stricken, there is something wrong with their part of the Body. I do not think that is an encouraging message. It sounds more like a schoolyard taunt.


Well, you are perceiving an underlying message that does not exist.
The fact is, sickness and poverty are excluded from the Jesus's Kingdom.
So, if we are sick and broke, it is not his fault.
Sometimes we die young, sometimes we as Christians suffer a harvest that is related to our sowing.
The thing is,.........God's system, is not flawed, but.........we are.
And if we dont use what is available, then whose fault is that?
In the end it comes down to lack of knowledge and lack of understanding and lack of faith and obedience and so........destruction follows.
No Christian has a right to be sick, even tho many cling to their situation as if its God's will for any of his children to be sick.
This right was taken away when sin was pardoned and the law and the curse was eliminated.
However, many Christians will never believe that they have the authority to stop sickness anymore then they will believe that God does not want his children to be sick.
Let me ask you this.....Was Jesus ever sick?
Why not?
And now we have the same "heir" position in the family that he has....as a matter of fact we are seated with him right now next to Father God.
So, why dont so many Christians accept their position and recognize who they are now become, "in Christ".
Is it pride?
Is it just lazy theology.
Is it denominational brainwashing?
Is it fear?
You know..........ive noticed that people will stay in a horrible "love" relationship for way too long, because they get use to it, and because they are afraid of CHANGE.
And many times, people will stay stuck in life, because they are use to it, and because they are afraid of change.
Change is scary.
Change is hard.
And for many.... leaving a false and puny understanding of Salvation is a big change,....huge.....and not only that.....There is something about wrong doctrine that once you become infected with it.....the devil will use the scriptures more and more to keep you deceived.
He is so very good at this, that its almost impossible for someone who is really off the chain regarding messed up theology, to come back.
For example, take a look at some of the water baptism professionals here who respond to me.
"Kidron....yes i know its by faith in Christ alone.....BUT........BUT..........BUT.......>




And, one last thing, your use of the word "church" as in "my church" and "your church" is truly wrong. The entire Body is the "church". And as Paul pointed out, no one part is more needed than the other. In fact, I believe he said the less honorable parts are the ones that get the greatest covering.


Tessiewebb, i think you know that we all refer to the church we attend as "our church".
So, there was no implication by me that im not aware of the body of Christ at large, Tessiwebb.
My point, and its always the same, is to get you to examine yourself based on something real.
This is why im here for a little while.
So, if i tell you that "my church", supports 40 full time missionaries , and has produced over 140 full time Pastors who started full time churches.......then, im telling you this to compare it to yours so that you have the correct way to think about "church" and its true reason to exist.

See, im an evangelist, and that is why my anointing is very convicting.
i know how to use the tools that God has gifted me with so that the reader is allowed a different experience then what they are use to regarding sites like this one.
My words have authority and confidence because i know what im talking about.
I dont bend the bible and i dont play around with opinion.
Im not new to this, im not a novice, and my theology is very very sound.
I can guarantee you that many people here read what i have been writing and they feel as if they are reading something that finally makes perfect sense.
Why is that?
Its because i have an anointing to teach, and that is why what i say seems so clear and so simple.
Sometimes, for example, a Christian just does not have a way to understand salvation so that it makes real good sense.
"Imputed righteousness.
Redemption.
Propitiation.
Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb.
Justification by faith."
say what????????????????
So, when i say........"if you take Jesus then God takes YOU".
Well, this is so clear that even a water baptism obsessive can figure it out.
Sometimes a Christian gets so caught up in Christianese that no unsaved person can interpret the foreign language.
So, when i teach, i use my gift of clarity to make an impact.



Lastly, and personally, I reject your implication that my faith is not "real and useful". First because I, like all of His children who are actively seeking His kingdom and righteousness, am "working out my own salvation with fear and trembling".

Real and useful Faith....is exactly the same kind that Jesus has.
It is the device that activates God into a situation.
Its real because it is alive based on the understanding that as a Son of God, we have the right to expect God to answer and solve something ever time we pray according to his will..
Useful Faith is the kind that God uses to change what is dead or dying or wrong, into Life, living, and right.
I wrote 3 threads that have the power to change someone's faith from a dead definition to a God activated force.

Secondly because the posts you believe we should "print out and study" have the same taunting tone that this one does, it would be very difficult for them to be helpful to me or anyone else who senses the disdain.


What you perceive as "disdain" is actually just a very direct approach to the heart of the matter.
I take it for granted that 99% of the Christians on any Christian forum, are more interested in Facebook and Cable TV and eating then they are with winning a soul.
The average Christian spends more time reading emails then they do reading the bible, so is it any wonder so many are depressed, sick, broke, and taking XanaX?
I can promise you that not 4 people here, out of all the readers, have led more then 5 people to Christ.
Most here dont even witness.
This is the age of the self centered Christian who is more interested in their opinion then they are with spiritual revelation.
So, regarding my 3 Threads.
Get the info found therein, apply it, and you will find that your Bible will begin to show you what ive been teaching.
It'll show you.
And when this happens, your faith will change and your entire perception of who you are to God......that is to say.....what you are "in Christ", will revolutionize your Christian experience.

Step 1 is to get saved.
Most Christians never really get past this initial starting gate because it gets harder once you get saved and most return to their past sins and well worn habits only to find that something goes really wrong inside when you do that .
Step 2 is to come to the revelation of who and what you are in Christ, and once that happens, your Christian life is really going to change.


Above and beyond all that, though, kidron, I believe you do have a heart for the Body at large and desire that we should all prosper.


Of course.
Im no different then Jesus., according to God.
And neither are you.
He is sinless, and so are we.
He is a Son of God, and so are we.
He has eternal life, and so do we.
He is seated at the right hand of the Father, and so are we.
He is in the earth right now forgiving, healing, saving, and so are WE. (is the idea)
He is coming back to rule and reign, and so are we.
He and his Father are one, and so are we.
He was sent to restore what was stolen and destroyed by the devil, and so are we.
Everything he can do, we can do "in Christ"-"through Christ".
Everything he has access to, we have access to.
He is in us and we are in him.
All God has, and All God is, and All God can do, has become our Sonship right of provision for equipping us to do the will of God everyday in every way.
All we have to do is get the revelation........(see above)...................^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^




be blessed,



K

..............

 

[tessiewebb]

..............

You know, kidron, there is one thing missing from your posts and in my opinion in much that is preached about health, prosperity, etc being what every Christian should have....and that is HOW. I'm only just coming into understanding all that is our birthright. And I know now that the way to acquire all that is mine is to believe that it is mine, that Jesus died for it and God wants me to have it. The work of God is to believe in the One He sent.

I've probably been a Christian for more years than you've been alive and it took me this long. Your taunting tone is not helpful, do you understand what I'm saying? Your nah nah na nahnah is off putting instead. "No Christian has the right to be sick?" Is that what Jesus said to the sick and lame?

Even if your type of message doesn't downright discourage the hearers/readers in their conditions, it will certainly not assist anyone towards looking into what is their RIGHT as God's chosen elect. I actually pray that towards your converts you are more helpful and compassionate than your posts would lead us to believe.

And I'm done with this discussion.