Guilt

[MayDay]

If the belief in hell primarily creates a mindset of fear, that we will be punished by unimaginable pain if we do not adhere to the stipulations of Jesus the Christ. The primary stipulation that we must believe in him exclusively, that any deviation from his particular world view will result in torture seems to act as a catalyst for internal justification of one's beliefs.

This primary fear of hell installs itself in the mind of every new believer, and once this premise is fully accepted the believer is instantly trapped with guilt. From here the believer must stay dependant on the conditions Jesus the Christ has specified, otherwise they risk total damnation.

We can say that the believer has to fully accept and surrender themselves to Jesus the Christ in order that they may avoid this ghastly place. No evidence is required to debunk this primary belief because the mind has already accepted the idea of hell, and the believer will reject all evidence that might threaten their safe passage out of burning for all eternity.

 

[for_his_glory]

Are you even human? Do you have empathy for those that would be tortured for simply growing up in the wrong religion or being cut off from the gospel due to government.

What about this bible verse:

Jeremiah 19:5 5They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal-something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.

This contradicts the very tenant that there is a hell (If burning children doesn't even enter your God's mind)

Okay, so you see that's a conflict of interests.

Did you know that it repented God that He created man and that he was going to destroy them who were on earth as their hearts turned to iniquity, but only one person found favor in the Lord being that of Noah. Because of faithful Noah we all have a chance to be redeemed of our iniquity as Jesus stands at the door knocking and wants us to open that door to receive God's saving grace.

Genesis 6:
6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

There is no excuse for not hearing the Gospel being preached no matter what nation you are from. The problem is that people are lovers of self as they love the world as they have turned away from God.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. 7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

God gives us the choice to either accept Jesus as Lord and Savior or reject Him. Those who reject Him already have God's judgement against them as they have condemned themselves to be cast into the lake of fire.

 

[WIP]

MayDay,

Just thought I’d take a moment to share with you some additional information about myself. I really appreciate that you have these questions. I have been where you are. I was a non-believer and I know that right now what I share probably doesn’t mean a whole lot to you and probably sounds like fairy tale and la-la land but I sure do hope and pray that the Holy Spirit uses something I have shared to inspire you and take you toward your first step to freedom in Christ.

I grew up in the traditions of the Catholic church. I was baptized, received my first communion, confirmed, served as altar boy, sang in the church choir, spent countless hours in Mass, not only on Sundays and holy days of obligation, but often during the week.

As I approached my later teens I began to question things. The liturgy of the Mass became mundane and meaningless repetition of words that I knew by heart. To this day, 40 years later, if I attend a Catholic Mass I can still recite most of the liturgy from memory. The prayers we were taught also lost meaning and became just empty words. It is for this reason that I now prefer to pray from my heart and not repeat prepared words because to me prayer is conversation with the Father and we don’t rehearse conversation. I also began to see hypocrisy within the church both in what the church taught and did and with the church members and how they lived their lives. So, I left the church and God.

I began to live my life for me the way I wanted. I got involved with alcohol, drugs, partying, and taking advantage of everything the world had to offer. My thinking was enjoy my life while I can and to live for the day and not concern myself with the future. I had a good job that paid very well and I was going to live it up.

In one of my college classes the professor gave us a writing assignment. I don’t recall all the specific details of the assignment but I do recall that we could choose any subject we wanted and we were to provide details in support of our position. I chose to write about what I perceived as contradictions and inaccuracies found in the Bible.

I remember the professor telling me that while he didn’t agree with my viewpoint, based on the technical aspects of the task, he gave me an “A.” At the time, he chose not to challenge my assertions so I never did find out specifically what he believed. I sometimes think he missed an opportunity to witness or perhaps his own faith had need for work.

It wasn’t until I was in my late 30's that my life began to change. I had been through a divorce that sent me into a depression and attempted suicide, I was living almost 300 miles from my son so I wasn’t able to be there for him as I felt I should, and my second marriage was becoming a struggle.

I remember taking a walk during the night and talking to God even though I had no idea who He was. Actually, I wasn’t just talking…I was screaming and yelling and calling Him all kinds of names and some of them were not very nice.

I won’t lie and tell you that I experienced some kind of life-changing epiphany for I did not. My conversion and return has been a slow process taken in small steps. In fact, the reason I signed on to CFnet with the username WIP is because it is an acronym for Work In Progress. I am a stubborn one and the Holy Spirit has His work cut out with me but I know He is not done with me yet.

In the last few years I have either read the Bible cover to cover or listened to it audibly every year starting on January 1. Every time I do this, I find more information that comes to light. Things just seem to jump out at me and it is for this reason that I truly believe that God will let us know what we need to know, when we need to know it. He is a very patient and compassionate God and He works on His time, not ours. He does this because He knows what we are ready for and how much we can handle.

I truly pray that you too will find your way to the truth in Jesus’ name.

Amen!

 

[MayDay]

You are advocating that people who are guilty should not suffer the consquence of their guilt.
How do you justify that apart from appealing to emotions?

As for Jerimiah try reading it again.
The prophet is warning the people, who are rejecting everything that God has told them about how to worship him with vile and destestable practices that God does not want done.

But then you consider that people doing these things to be 'innocent', not desirving Gods punishment.

I'm not going to play verse hockey with you here.

 

[WIP]

Let's remember the Questions From Seekers forum is for non-believers to ask questions and for CFnet Christian members to answer.

 

[HeIsRisen2018]

Let's remember the Questions From Seekers forum is for non-believers to ask questions and for CFnet Christian members to answer.

And let's be honest with ourselves here, if MayDay, wasn't looking for answers and had completely given up on Christianity then he wouldn't be here would he? Also I want to add to something that for_his_glory has said,.. sometimes Christians even intentionally sin. Or at least I do even though I'm not proud of it.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

My desire to exercise my freedom makes me break the law of man all the time, so yes the belief I'll go to jail has the same effect of entrapment as the theology of Christian hell. My freedom vs man's punishment, another formality for human's to push their brand of morality on me.

But in actuality it's one group of people's morality imposing itself against another groups morality. But in the end all side's moral agenda's are equally faulty if they impose their laws as facts if in reality they only believe the other party is wrong.

Is there something about the legal system you have an issue with? You've said that you break the law of man all the time. The two situtions that I can consider without assuming a complete disregard for society is breaking traffic laws through speeding on the road (which many people do while still happy to obey most other laws); and the other is to take drugs (those that take illegal or stolen drugs seem to do it just as regularly as those who speed on the road).

If either of those are what you mean by breaking the law all the time then I can understand your reasoning. Though I disagree with it. If it's about something else in the law that is broken often then I don't think I can relate to your sense of freedom over the harm that is done to others.

If the issue is about entrapment because of the fear of jail time, then I think the issue with a law has to be considered carefully on whether it's worth it to break it anyways. That form of fear of the consquences is a good thing in my opinion. Helps restrain some people from the harmful actions they might do. It also encourages those following the laws to keep on doing what they're doing.

This topic of hell and entrapment might have other concerns then about Christians remaining Christian. If I can ask you, Mayday; how much do you value freedom of choice? Is it valued as long as a person doesn't harm another person? As long as no one is killed? How about if it is a parent that starves their child and neglects them till they've died, due to a drug addiction? I hope there's a line you hold that stops the freedom of choice when you see injustice to a horrific degree. To those situtions, that injustice is paramount, I would hope some fear of justice, jail, or any other consquence would be enough to set a person streight. Even if it's looked at as entrapment.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Going back to the topic of Christianity. There are many teachings and comands that Jesus gives in the gospels. And there are a few different ways of looking at them and still come to the same conclusion of being a Christian that follows (to the best that they can) what they know from the bible or from their faith.

There are two ways based on what your question on entrapment. That people should obey Jesus either out of fear and hope of consequences (heaven and hell); or that they should obey out of love for Jesus. Both ideas are expressed in the bible.

A second way to consider it is that Jesus teaches people a better way. Not just about the reward or the punishment regarding believing and following Jesus (or lack of either), but actually to count Jesus's way as a better way. Jesus gives a warning though a few times. Warning his disciples at the time that Jesus faces persecution, so if they follow Him to expect the same kinds of treatment. With this in mind, the idea of believing in Jesus and following Him might be connected with heaven and hell a little, but is more directed on because the person believes that their trust in God and their following Jesus is for a better approach then any other option out there. It's not entrapment if the person wants to follow God, and wants to follow Jesus.

The third way to look at it the situation is by the reasoning of being close to God. I mentioned in my first post that knowing God is a treasure and not a burden. It's by simular reasoning to think that God loves us and to try to be close to Him that many people draw closer to their faith and their devotion. Some people have a glimps of God by Him answering their prayers in a profound way, or by some other experience that draws them to the conclusion that God loves them and they should cherish this. Even to try to be closer to Him if they can. I think the perspective of having a relationship with God that many Christians talk about goes in this direction. That being close to God is worth it. Possibly without considering the consquences of hell at all as much as the hopes of heaven and the hopes of God in our life before we die.

These three ways of looking at it might help with a fuller picture for why Christians might be Christian, without it being only about avoiding hell.

 

[stovebolts]

Hell is not here yet, Jesus the Christ is yet to prepare it.

I disagree... But I also view hell in a biblical sense. When we look at the idea of hell from its Jewish roots, we see it is a systemic sin which is promoted from the top down.

Let's use stealing as an example. If one were lazy and stole the life savings from the elderly, we could say the thief brought hell to the elderly person. But more so, his lack of moral character stole his true identity and the potential he was created for. He will never experience the joy of freely giving from what he has earned. He is in a state of hell... Dead already.

The Hebrew word for hell is Gehenna and it is a literal, physical place which takes on spiritual dimensions in Israel with a robust history dating back to King Solomon.

When we subject ourselves to Gods ways, they are not a burden, not restrictive. Rather, they free us and allow is to live in peace with a sense of harmony and they allow us to navigate the worst situations imaginable without losing our joy.

Fear can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the context and often, we don't always know the right course to make things better, but having an understanding of what not to do can save much heartache.

 

[MayDay]

Is there something about the legal system you have an issue with? You've said that you break the law of man all the time. The two situtions that I can consider without assuming a complete disregard for society is breaking traffic laws through speeding on the road (which many people do while still happy to obey most other laws); and the other is to take drugs (those that take illegal or stolen drugs seem to do it just as regularly as those who speed on the road).

If either of those are what you mean by breaking the law all the time then I can understand your reasoning. Though I disagree with it. If it's about something else in the law that is broken often then I don't think I can relate to your sense of freedom over the harm that is done to others.

If the issue is about entrapment because of the fear of jail time, then I think the issue with a law has to be considered carefully on whether it's worth it to break it anyways. That form of fear of the consquences is a good thing in my opinion. Helps restrain some people from the harmful actions they might do. It also encourages those following the laws to keep on doing what they're doing.

This topic of hell and entrapment might have other concerns then about Christians remaining Christian. If I can ask you, Mayday; how much do you value freedom of choice? Is it valued as long as a person doesn't harm another person? As long as no one is killed? How about if it is a parent that starves their child and neglects them till they've died, due to a drug addiction? I hope there's a line you hold that stops the freedom of choice when you see injustice to a horrific degree. To those situtions, that injustice is paramount, I would hope some fear of justice, jail, or any other consquence would be enough to set a person streight. Even if it's looked at as entrapment.

I was born in the wrong time, I tell you that.

Or maybe the wrong star system.

 

[MayDay]

Going back to the topic of Christianity. There are many teachings and comands that Jesus gives in the gospels. And there are a few different ways of looking at them and still come to the same conclusion of being a Christian that follows (to the best that they can) what they know from the bible or from their faith.

There are two ways based on what your question on entrapment. That people should obey Jesus either out of fear and hope of consequences (heaven and hell); or that they should obey out of love for Jesus. Both ideas are expressed in the bible.

A second way to consider it is that Jesus teaches people a better way. Not just about the reward or the punishment regarding believing and following Jesus (or lack of either), but actually to count Jesus's way as a better way. Jesus gives a warning though a few times. Warning his disciples at the time that Jesus faces persecution, so if they follow Him to expect the same kinds of treatment. With this in mind, the idea of believing in Jesus and following Him might be connected with heaven and hell a little, but is more directed on because the person believes that their trust in God and their following Jesus is for a better approach then any other option out there. It's not entrapment if the person wants to follow God, and wants to follow Jesus.

The third way to look at it the situation is by the reasoning of being close to God. I mentioned in my first post that knowing God is a treasure and not a burden. It's by simular reasoning to think that God loves us and to try to be close to Him that many people draw closer to their faith and their devotion. Some people have a glimps of God by Him answering their prayers in a profound way, or by some other experience that draws them to the conclusion that God loves them and they should cherish this. Even to try to be closer to Him if they can. I think the perspective of having a relationship with God that many Christians talk about goes in this direction. That being close to God is worth it. Possibly without considering the consquences of hell at all as much as the hopes of heaven and the hopes of God in our life before we die.

These three ways of looking at it might help with a fuller picture for why Christians might be Christian, without it being only about avoiding hell.

Okay, let's all cherry pick our way into heaven.

 

[MayDay]

I disagree... But I also view hell in a biblical sense. When we look at the idea of hell from its Jewish roots, we see it is a systemic sin which is promoted from the top down.

Let's use stealing as an example. If one were lazy and stole the life savings from the elderly, we could say the thief brought hell to the elderly person. But more so, his lack of moral character stole his true identity and the potential he was created for. He will never experience the joy of freely giving from what he has earned. He is in a state of hell... Dead already.

The Hebrew word for hell is Gehenna and it is a literal, physical place which takes on spiritual dimensions in Israel with a robust history dating back to King Solomon.

When we subject ourselves to Gods ways, they are not a burden, not restrictive. Rather, they free us and allow is to live in peace with a sense of harmony and they allow us to navigate the worst situations imaginable without losing our joy.

Fear can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the context and often, we don't always know the right course to make things better, but having an understanding of what not to do can save much heartache.

How is possible that these writer's of the old and new testament knew more about our current lack of universal understanding today?

 

[stovebolts]

How is possible that these writer's of the old and new testament knew more about our current lack of universal understanding today?

I'm not sure I'm following your question in response to my initial reply. Can you be a bit more specific?

 

[for_his_glory]

What is believed is not a situation that grants certainty.

I went back to read your OP again and this just struck a cord in me.

As being Spiritually born again/renewed/transformed into the image of God from above where all things of God are spiritual as it is a spiritual realm that you can not locate on a map or see with your eyes. We have that Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that indwells and teaches us all things God wants us to know. This allows us to build up our faith in Christ as we begin a personal relationship with Him.

When I first heard the Gospel of God's grace it wasn't about doom and gloom and going to hell, it's about peace, joy and the greatest act of love of one (Jesus) laying His life down that we can have eternal life with God in His kingdom that will be ushered down from heaven.

Now, don't get me wrong as Jesus also told us the wages of our sin is death (Spiritual death) as by our choice if we reject Jesus as Lord and Savior we have already condemned our self to the lake of fire. We can only be saved by God's grace that is a free gift and not of anything we could do on our own.

Heaven is real and the lake of fire, which means a place of torment and total separation from God, is real. What we believe is very real as faith brings certainty to everything Jesus has taught about heaven and hell. How do we know it's a certainty, because Jesus has proven Himself to us in a way a non-believer could never experience or understand.

I would rather live my life as in knowing Jesus then to not know Him and die to find out He is real. It's those who seek and humble themselves before Jesus that will find Him and have fellowship with Him.

 

[for_his_glory]

And let's be honest with ourselves here, if MayDay, wasn't looking for answers and had completely given up on Christianity then he wouldn't be here would he? Also I want to add to something that for_his_glory has said,.. sometimes Christians even intentionally sin. Or at least I do even though I'm not proud of it.

I think I said unintentionally as we do not set out to sin, but when we get into the flesh we will.

 

[for_his_glory]

How is possible that these writer's of the old and new testament knew more about our current lack of universal understanding today?

All depends on what you mean by a universal understanding.

God being the same yesterday, today and forever has always given understanding of everything in heaven and on earth. If one lacks understanding all they need is to ask for it and they will receive.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I was born in the wrong time, I tell you that.

Or maybe the wrong star system.

Don't know what you mean. So can't really comment further on it.

Okay, let's all cherry pick our way into heaven.

Earth is no picknick, and hell is much worse. I'm not cherry picking, but explaining that there are other concerns for a Christian. The three basic positions I gave was from what I've seen.

•Christians being Christian out of the hope for heaven or the fear of hell is one dynamic of perspectives. (This Perspective is the paradigm that you seem to be coming from. But it is not alone).

•Christianity being followed because the believer believes it to be correct. This kind of position isn't fear based or reward based. It's that either dependance on God is the only way forward, or that there is wisdom and good reason to follow the teachings in the bible and trust God. This is a position of actively seeking what is in the bible, trying to understand it, and using that as a cornerstone to what they do and believe.

•The third position I gave was that people grow in their Christian Faith as a means to be closer to God and have a close relationship with Him. I've seen this perspective usually coinciding with more prayer, and devoted time alone to spend with God or at the very least to reflect on God.

Nothing I gave was about cherry picking. The first position focuses quite a bit on the afterlife, and might be the closest to your comment on posibably cherry picking and trying to convince themselves they are heaven bound.

The second position might still have a notice of the concerns of the after life, but for the most part the focus can be that there's good reason to follow Jesus's teachings today and teaching in the Old Testiment, not just good reasons for following them for what happens after we die.

The third position I've seen with a higher regard with a spiritual connection to God. Turn from your sins and turn from God sort of thing would focus on turning to God as being more important part of the equasion. Possibly even to say that both turning to God helps turning from your sins, or that by turning from your sins you will find it easier to be close to God.

The truth is that there's a likely mix of these three positions for any Christian, even if they lean on focusing more in one of these directions then the other two positions. For instance the sentence I started with combines both the second perspective bullet point for being a Christian ("earth is no picknick"); as well as the first bulletpoint position for being a Christian ("but hell is much worse). A third perspective to add to it would be that "God is the prize. He's the treasure."

.......

One last thought. I'm not your enemy here. No one here responding to you is giving you any attitude or disrespect. There's no reason for snarky bitter replies. That doesn't make you smarter, or correct anyone else's views. All it does is tires people's patience. Just an FYI.

 

[Edward]

No one can actually say they know what they only believe. If I believe that I will die today due to a heartattack because I smoke a pack of cigarettes a day, this belief will not actually be real until the reality of my death today.

This is where you are wrong. I don't know if you've been lied to or just reasoned it out incorrectly. I read all your posts, and...are you trying to debunk God?

I can't say that I know some things that I believe, because I do not know it all by any means. But I believe in what I know...about God!

God proved Himself to me to be very real at least a dozen or so times, so how many testimonies do you want to hear from me? He even spoke to me audibly once. The many times that He has helped me He did it in such a way that, there is no other plausible answer except that God did this thing.

That God has (apparently) never revealed Him self to you...is understandable because it does not work that way with Him. You can not make demands of God. We make a choice to turn to Him, and with a humble heart asking forgiveness and try to draw close to Him through prayer and the reading of His Word...and then, God will draw close to you, and it continues, and He eventually reveals Himself to you personally, but in a way that can not be...taken into a lab or proven absolutely to the world...but it will be clear to you.

It was me! My friend, when Jesus walks into the room...you know it! (I did not see Him). A very powerful supernatural presence was there, and then He spoke to me! I will never forget that. So you are wrong. There are some who can say they KNOW beyond mere belief.

The Matrix was right, it is the world that has been pulled over your eyes...

 

[Who Me]

I'm not going to play verse hockey with you here.

And you are not going to give a rational reason why you think the guilt should not expect punishment?

 

[GodsGrace]

Certainty is built on what is actually verifiable, wouldn't you agree? Or is it normal for beliefs to generally be accepted as facts before they've been verified.

How does one verify the existence of God?

 

[Edward]

How does one verify the existence of God?

I know how. But it's only to myself and not the world. God will not violate our free will. It is a choice to believe and to draw close to Him...then He reveals Himself. But to the individual.