Guns in the house and Suicide

[jasonc]

Whew..hot topic left alone. I'm not naive enough to think you would consider a different pov

I have debated this ,look I live in a drug infested area,if you think makimg guns illegal will actually end violence in my area ,kindly move her and show us how you intend to monitor our air space ,coastal ports and borders .we can't even stop simple drugs from crossing the sea .my,point here is this ,liberals in gun controlled cities are now buying in mass because of the riots ,yup the cops simply,can't protect you,so they decided to buy a gun,imagine calling 911 and being told ,you are own your own we won't come.

 

[humble soul]

area,if you think makimg guns illegal will actually end violence in my area ,kindly move her and show us how you intend

I've said no such things. What's straw man? When you exaggerate someone's pov to make their points sound irrational?
It's all in my OP. I don't need to state again.

 

[humble soul]

I did some care work for a guy who was a failed suicide. He tried to hang himself. Makes you wonder if he had a gun at the time, would he have used it? I suspect he would have.

 

[WIP]

I did some care work for a guy who was a failed suicide. He tried to hang himself. Makes you wonder if he had a gun at the time, would he have used it? I suspect he would have.

I think the issue that arose from your OP came from how you singled out guns rather than speaking of suicide in general so for some of us, me included, we see it as anti-gun propaganda even if you may have intended for it to be more about anti-suicide.

To the question you posed in the post I quoted above, using a gun results in failed suicide attempts as well. Admittedly, it does appear that using firearms is the most lethal method that people use with about an 85% success rate in the US according to the Harvard Public Health magazine. However, the magazine also noted that firearms are not the most popular method of suicide although they didn't provide the statistics in that regard. I also found information indicating that firearms account for the majority of successful suicides and account for more successful suicides than all other methods used.

The Canadian Department of Justice also has similar findings with the lethality of firearms suicide having the highest success rate at 83.3%. They also indicate that hanging is a close 2nd with a lethality rate of 82.4% followed by carbon monoxide poisoning at 66.7%. Remember, these statistics are only showing the success rate percentage and not necessarily the percentage related to the means by which they are accomplished. Based on this information, the guy you speak of that hung himself had about the same chance of success as he would have had using a gun.

The father of a close friend of mine committed suicide using a firearm and the brother of another close friend of mine used carbon monoxide poisoning by running his car in an enclosed garage. I personally had a near attempted suicide by plunging myself onto a butcher knife. Fortunately for me my ex-wife prevented me from carrying it out.

 

[jasonc]

I've said no such things. What's straw man? When you exaggerate someone's pov to make their points sound irrational?
It's all in my OP. I don't need to state again.

your point is to only,ban guns .I,countered with the facts of they will kill themselves in any way possible

 

[jasonc]

in australia your,are,more likely, to die by,suicide then in,a car wreck .yet we Americans should ban guns or,be,mentally examined to own one ,yet not to drive a car or any other thing .

 

[WIP]

in australia your,are,more likely, to die by,suicide then in,a car wreck .yet we Americans should ban guns or,be,mentally examined to own one ,yet not to drive a car or any other thing .

Yes. According to the WHO, road injuries are the 8th leading cause of death worldwide at about 1.8 million, best I can tell. Here's a link to the data. The number of suicides worldwide and while still significant is much lower, coming in at about 800,000. Here's a link to that data. Suicide by firearms accounts for about 30% of the total. Here's a link to this data from Associated Press.

 

[Edward]

I've said no such things. What's straw man? When you exaggerate someone's pov to make their points sound irrational?
It's all in my OP. I don't need to state again.

Yeah maybe, but your basic premise did single out guns as a primary subject matter towards your discussion...and that is always how the anti gunners begin their insane arguments. And it's getting to be an old schtick to many of us.

Even if guns are the most used method of suicides in this country, guns are actually irrelevant to the problem being discussed. Suicide is not a gun problem but a mental health problem.

 

[humble soul]

your point is to only,ban guns

I repeat...never said ban guns.

 

[jasonc]

I repeat...never said ban guns.

you imply it ,cant force a person to give up guns ,no cure for depression or ptsd ,once you are suicidal ,the chance is always there .

 

[Edward]

I repeat...never said ban guns.

You did not. But the thing is, is that their rhetoric leads people into a way of thinking about an issue...where that way of thinking is fundamentally wrong and does lead towards their eventual thinking going to the thought that, yes guns should be banned. You are not there, but nevertheless, your basic premise is a wee bit flawed.

 

[humble soul]

Looks like there's an NRA posse on my trail. Looking for a shoot out. Sorry I'm a peace living Christian. I'm anti violence.
I let you win. Anything to appease you!

 

[jasonc]

Looks like there's an NRA posse on my trail. Looking for a shoot out. Sorry I'm a peace living Christian. I'm anti violence.
I let you win. Anything to appease you!

this isn't about the bra,frankly I have never owned a gun ,but you post this statement and then claim nothing about banning guns,

I quote the second amendment


a militia being necessary ,never the less the right to bear arms shall not be infringed upon.

context ,the founders having defeated the red coats knew of how the crown wanted to confiscate their guns ,also used a registration .

in order for your idea to work all gub owners would have to register their guns under threat of law,then prove that days befire magically before said law passed and despite no record of violence or criminal act or mental health issues that they can own a gun.a right guaranteed ,under the 4th amendment you have the right to retain freedom from imprisonsmemt and search and seizure without at first probable cause .meaning,a high probable evidence that you did commit a crime is a burden of proof the state must meet .

your arguing that the,suicidal is already guilty of a crime by red flag laws .yet where exactly is the right to own a car ,any,means to create weapons or any right to make any method of harming others?

the constitution after the failed prohibition laws guarantees the right to drink with age consent laws a given .yet in our countries ,especially yours 30 to 50 per cent of suicide involves that substance ,yet ban guns when wip said its 30 percent of all suicides world wife is even via gun.but keep that beer legal.

you with,that statement,against the nra of which I have never sent money to or joined undermines your statement on guns

 

[evenifigoalone]

Someone shouldn't be denied their right to own a gun simply because they're mentally ill......
That said, I know someone who has schizophrenia, he sees people that aren't there, and he'll get scared and start shooting at random. That's a clear example of someone who shouldn't own a gun. (That said, not everyone with schizophrenia is necessarily a danger with a gun. Depends on their symptoms and actions.)

It's something that would be difficult to regulate, tbh. Like, not everyone with a history of suicidal behavior would need to be restricted forever. 10 years ago, I was actively suicidal, but things change. I'm not in that spot anymore.
People can also be very very good at hiding their suicidal feelings, so you don't usually know if someone is suicidal or not. And if you admit to being suicidal and that you have a plan to carry it out, you can be Baker acted, which basically means they put you in the psyche ward at the hospital and you don't have a choice. So a lot of people will not disclose their feelings because of this.

I will mention that several years back, my dad, who had a hand gun for protection, threatened suicide one night in response to an intense argument. We ended up calling 911 and they sent the police, we didn't know what else to do. My dad claimed that he hadn't really meant the threat and had said it in the heat of the moment, but who knows if he really did mean it or not.

 

[jasonc]

Someone shouldn't be denied their right to own a gun simply because they're mentally ill......
That said, I know someone who has schizophrenia, he sees people that aren't there, and he'll get scared and start shooting at random. That's a clear example of someone who shouldn't own a gun. (That said, not everyone with schizophrenia is necessarily a danger with a gun. Depends on their symptoms and actions.)

It's something that would be difficult to regulate, tbh. Like, not everyone with a history of suicidal behavior would need to be restricted forever. 10 years ago, I was actively suicidal, but things change. I'm not in that spot anymore.
People can also be very very good at hiding their suicidal feelings, so you don't usually know if someone is suicidal or not. And if you admit to being suicidal and that you have a plan to carry it out, you can be Baker acted, which basically means they put you in the psyche ward at the hospital and you don't have a choice. So a lot of people will not disclose their feelings because of this.

I will mention that several years back, my dad, who had a hand gun for protection, threatened suicide one night in response to an intense argument. We ended up calling 911 and they sent the police, we didn't know what else to do. My dad claimed that he hadn't really meant the threat and had said it in the heat of the moment, but who knows if he really did mean it or not.

I was going to add that caveat bases on my experiences .brother and sister baker acted and step daughter and jaci father who has paranoid schizophrenia .he also had a felony and threatened Monica and was baker acted and held in that place two months .

 

[humble soul]

I was going to add that caveat bases on my experiences .brother and sister baker acted and step daughter and jaci father who has paranoid schizophrenia .he also had a felony and threatened Monica and was baker acted and held in that place two months .

Yeah I was just quoting a guy on a documentary who cleans up after death, natural or otherwise. One suicide he had to clean up after a woman used a rifle in the bath. He said that guns shouldn't be convenient to suicidals.
But as you say "suicidal" is sometimes hard to define.

 

[jasonc]

Yeah I was just quoting a guy on a documentary who cleans up after death, natural or otherwise. One suicide he had to clean up after a woman used a rifle in the bath. He said that guns shouldn't be convenient to suicidals.
But as you say "suicidal" is sometimes hard to define.

neither should knives ,cliffs ,bridges .a suicidal elderly living next to the alma lee lot bridge can easily walk to it and jump ,its less then a mile to the turn ,not even a kilometer north .

 

[Edward]

this isn't about the bra,frankly I have never owned a gun ,but you post this statement and then claim nothing about banning guns,

I quote the second amendment


a militia being necessary ,never the less the right to bear arms shall not be infringed upon.

context ,the founders having defeated the red coats knew of how the crown wanted to confiscate their guns ,also used a registration .

in order for your idea to work all gub owners would have to register their guns under threat of law,then prove that days befire magically before said law passed and despite no record of violence or criminal act or mental health issues that they can own a gun.a right guaranteed ,under the 4th amendment you have the right to retain freedom from imprisonsmemt and search and seizure without at first probable cause .meaning,a high probable evidence that you did commit a crime is a burden of proof the state must meet .

your arguing that the,suicidal is already guilty of a crime by red flag laws .yet where exactly is the right to own a car ,any,means to create weapons or any right to make any method of harming others?

the constitution after the failed prohibition laws guarantees the right to drink with age consent laws a given .yet in our countries ,especially yours 30 to 50 per cent of suicide involves that substance ,yet ban guns when wip said its 30 percent of all suicides world wife is even via gun.but keep that beer legal.

you with,that statement,against the nra of which I have never sent money to or joined undermines your statement on guns

And if they could get an inch, next thing you know, menatal illness would be a reason to deny ownerhip, plus they would make it so...if someone thought that their neighbor was acting kooky they coud call on them and they'd get raided and arrested for being a gun owner and (an angry neighbor) says you're mental or said something suicideal, then you'll have to be held for observation and woe unto you if you've ever let a doctor prescribe you an anti-depressant or a psychotic drug. They'll say that is evidence of being mental and denied gun ownership. They wont give the guns back.

And all because your son's 21st birthday party got a little loud and they got mad at you for it.

That's insane. A person with a mental illness should be judged on their actions. Have they tried to commit suicide? Did they harm someone? Not, have they ever taken one of their pills? It's all about control.

And you just can't control people who own their own arms.

 

[jasonc]

And if they could get an inch, next thing you know, menatal illness would be a reason to deny ownerhip, plus they would make it so...if someone thought that their neighbor was acting kooky they coud call on them and they'd get raided and arrested for being a gun owner and (an angry neighbor) says you're mental or said something suicideal, then you'll have to be held for observation and woe unto you if you've ever let a doctor prescribe you an anti-depressant or a psychotic drug. They'll say that is evidence of being mental and denied gun ownership. They wont give the guns back.

And all because your son's 21st birthday party got a little loud and they got mad at you for it.

That's insane. A person with a mental illness should be judged on their actions. Have they tried to commit suicide? Did they harm someone? Not, have they ever taken one of their pills? It's all about control.

And you just can't control people who own their own arms.

something of the like happened to a cop who ticketed a lady and she pulled that stunt and wound up going to jail as it was fraudulent

 

[humble soul]

neither should knives ,cliffs ,bridges .a suicidal elderly living next to the alma lee lot bridge can easily walk to it and jump ,its less then a mile to the turn ,not even a kilometer north .

I was going to ignore but I just find it laughable that you compare a bridge to a gun in the house.