Has the Gifts of the Spirit ceased?

[Bonairos]

when someone starts speaking in tongues and I get what they are saying how the heck do I know they are speakin tongues?:biglol anyway God Bless you as well.

Perhaps you have the "gift of interpretation!" and don't even know it! HAHA


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

 

[taromina2003]

Perhaps you have the "gift of interpretation!" and don't even know it! HAHA


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

:biglol touche!( i hope that is how you spell it) my brother!

 

[Sparkey]

We are talking here about something that is very intimate - a conversation between a believer and his/her God. I am a little afraid to try to explain in great depth but it's an issue that has need of some explaining so, let me catch my breath a second, compose myself and ....


Three days ago, I was very troubled in my Spirit. There was something bothering me and I couldn't really define it. I couldn't quite get my head around the whole matter. Now, please understand that I'm what many would call an old man and I live by myself. There were no kids around (that could be freaked out). So when I went to sleep last night I prayed (in English) to God about it. When I came to things that I didn't understand and couldn't say well, I spoke in tongues, trusting God to speak through me, giving me the perfect way to express my prayer.

So, here's how it worked for me. When I wanted to say stuff that I couldn't express well - I used tongues to express it and the Spirit of God spoke out the things of the spirit while I was praying to God. You're probably familiar with the Scriptures that support that type of use but in case you're not I could go and fetch them.

Now then, if I were to go to my church (they understand the Gift of Tongues and also understand the requirement that there be an accompanying Interpretation) and if the Holy Spirit moved on me to speak out using the Gift of Tongues -- then I would. I've never been used in this capacity but understand that I could be. My point is that this is completely different than what is seen on TV (in my experience). It would be similar to when the Holy Spirit uses somebody in the Gift of Prophecy (at church). There too, somebody could speak out with God giving them the words. He he prefaces the message with the Gift of Tongues in an assembly it should be followed by the Gift of Interpretation so that everybody can understand.

So at home and by myself the use of my spiritual prayer language is different than the more formal "Gift of Tongues" that is used at church. At home, the Holy Spirit intercedes and gives utterance to things that can not be spoken. That's how Paul could say, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than ye all." It wasn't because he jumped up in church more often than others, wasn't because he had a team of Holy Spirit interpreters that translated but simply because he did indeed speak in tongues more than they did. What Paul was talking about when he said that there must be limits on how the Gift of Tongues was used in the Corintian church was that actual "Gift of Tongues, not the tongues that oftentimes accompanies the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. One is given to the believer and the other is given to the Assembly. Many believe that Paul was addressing the later use, saying that when in church and the possibility of outsiders were present -- things need be done in proper order so that all may have benefit.

To think that I am commanded to never speak in tongues while I am praying alone in my prayer closet (or on my bed) unless there was an interpreter present is difficult for me to understand to say the least.

Hope this helps and may be accepted in the spirit that it is offered.

~Sparrow

 

[taromina2003]

We are talking here about something that is very intimate - a conversation between a believer and his/her God. I am a little afraid to try to explain in great depth but it's an issue that has need of some explaining so, let me catch my breath a second, compose myself and ....


Three days ago, I was very troubled in my Spirit. There was something bothering me and I couldn't really define it. I couldn't quite get my head around the whole matter. Now, please understand that I'm what many would call an old man and I live by myself. So there were no kids around that could be freaked out when so when I went to sleep last night I prayed (in English) to God about it. When I came to things that I didn't undertand and couldn't say well, I spoke in tongues, trusting God to speak through me, giving me the perfect way to express my prayer.

So, here's how it worked for me. When I wanted to say stuff that I couldn't express well - I used my personal gift and the Spirit of God spoke out the things of the spirit while I was praying to God. You're probably familiar with the Scriptures that support that kind of thing but in case you're not I could go and fetch them.

Now then, if I were to go to my church (they understand the Gift of Tongues and also understand the requirement that there be an accompanying Interpretation) and if the Holy Spirit moved on me to speak out using the Gift of Tongues -- then I would. But that is completely diffrent than what is seen on TV (in my experience). It would be similar to when the Holy Spirit uses somebody in the Gift of Prophecy (at church). There too, somebody could speak out with God giving them the words.

So at home and by myself the use of my spiritual prayer language is different than the more formal "Gift of Tongues" that is used at church. Many believe that Paul was addressing the later use, saying that when in church and the posibility of outsiders were present -- things need be done in proper order so that all may have benefit.

To think that I am commanded to never speak in tongues while I am praying alone in my prayer closet (or on my bed) unless there was an interpreter present is difficult for me to understand to say the least.

Hope this helps and may be accepted in the spirit that it is offered.

~Sparrow

The gift of tongues came during the Pentacost, and that is because when the tower of babylon(meaning confusion) was erected the Holy Father scattered those and made it to where they could not communicate with each other. The gift of tongues is for missionaries and prophets to beable to speak the language of those he is communicating the message too. Real simple. Anyway I apologise for this simplicity of my response.

 

[Sparkey]

The gift of tongues came during the Pentacost, and that is because when the tower of babylon(meaning confusion) was erected the Holy Father scattered those and made it to where they could not communicate with each other. The gift of tongues is for missionaries and prophets to beable to speak the language of those he is communicating the message too. Real simple. Anyway I apologise for this simplicity of my response.

No need for apology here and I appreciate your candor in explaining your view.

Blessings to you,
~Sparrow

 

[taromina2003]

No need for apology here and I appreciate your candor in explaining your view.

Blessings to you,
~Sparrow

Thank you.:waving

 

[taromina2003]

We "both you and I" have "really studied" the word of God. The idea that you alone understand what it says might be true, but then again it might not. Kindly allow for the fact that there is some confusion on the matter.

Some believe (as you do) that there is only one thing being spoken of. That when Paul wrote to the Corinthians he was addressing "The Gift of Tongues" meaning, every single instance where believers speak to God in a Holy Ghost authored language.

Others believe that there is Scriptural evidence of tongues that isn't what they consider the operation of the more formal "Gift of Tongues". They see it as two different things. One would involve private prayer to God where the Spirit gives the utterance and the other would involve speaking out in the assembly where God is sending a message to the church.

There are many here who can help discern the differences so if there's still some confusion feel free to ask. I'm sure that others will help explain too. It might be a good idea to start a thread in the "Bible Study" area about this.

I missed this post sparrow. In my frank opinion, until there is an absolute need for the holy spirit to send messages (I'm thinking about the book of Esther in the old testament) kind of a cryptic thing I know there is a better word for it but I fail to remember it at the moment. So basically I believe that yes the gift of tongues will come at a time when it is warranted.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

HisBeloved

I believe that we must use scripture to interpret scripture, And yes Paul did indicate, that what started at Pentecost would end, but he said that it would not end until that which was perfect has come When does this
perfection happen?

We must be careful to keep the context of what was said in mind as well. In this Corintian letter based on the surrounding context, "that which is perfect" could very well be a reference to LOVE as opposed to other ideas such as Jesus' return, the completed canon of the NT, etc.

Again the controversy erupts as Bible scholars puzzle over what they see as cryptic verses. A dark glass? Know as I am known? What can this mean? The theories flow like a swift creek in a rainstorm. Stay focused, and keep in it context! What is under discussion? Charity as a more excellent way, charity as that which is perfect, or complete. Charity removes the desire to swap a "lesser" gift for a more desirable one--like speaking in foreign languages. In other words, charity lights the mirror of our soul and lets us see what is truly important! Once charity drives our life, we truly understand what is important--to bring all believers into full spiritual maturity in Christ Jesus! We see face to face--that is, clearly--and not a concealed, vague image in a darkened mirror. We know as we are known. We recognize a clear image of who we really are, and where we need to improve, and what we need to do about it. Charity gives us new insight into our relationships.
Charity teaches us that our goal is not personal fame and glory, but service to our fellow man. This fits with the entire context of Paul's address on charity. It is not about whether I can outshine you, but whether we can accomplish God's work in growing the body of Christ (the church) to a mature stature that befits the head of that body!
1 Corinthians 13:12 "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."
A "glass" is not referring to a windowpane, as many suppose--and as I once did--but rather, a mirror. When we look into a darkened mirror, we see only a vague outline of our features. However, when looking into a well-lighted mirror, we see the details and areas that need to be cleaned up. Which is to say, we see "face to face". Once we look into the unobstructed mirror in the light of charity, we recognize our obligations to serve one another, as well as others. The darkened mirror reflects an image of immaturity, or incompleteness. The "face to face" clarity in the mirror means that we can see clearly what God expects of us, and that is charity.
There are three enduring underpinnings to the Christian life: faith, hope, and charity. If we don't trust God, through Christ, to keep His promises, we won't be Christians. If we don't have the hope of better things ahead, there is no reason to be a Christian. And if we don't have charity, we will be lost anyway, because we will never understand what our relationship with God is really about.
1 Corinthians 13:13 "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity."

by Bernie Parsons via Doctrinal Discussions: That Which Is Perfect

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

So going backwards now, If the gifts of the Spirit have ceased,then that means.

1. The Lord is no longer calling people
2.there is one body of Christ during Pauls time and one body of our time which equals two bodies of Christ
3 there are two spirits,one in Pauls time and a different one in ours
4.Christians have already been perfected
5.The body of Christ no longer needs to be edified,or built up
6.the work of the ministry has ended.specifically,evangelist,teachers and pastors.

This would also mean that all pastors teachers and evangelist are working without a gift and thereby are working through their flesh,because these
were listed as gifts too and because ,according to those who say the gifts have ceased ,faith hope and love is all there is left.

I wish to address a couple points. I believe that the scriptures show us that that the saints of the 1st century were to be agthered by Jesus at his Parousia which was to occur during that generation. At that time, it is reasonable to believe that they were then 'perfected'.
Secondly, with the first point is in mind we must realized exactly who and what the Body of God's Anointed One is or was. The Ekklesia of called ones who were sealed by God's Holy Breath perhaps were this exclusive group. When Jesus took them at his parousia, his "Body" was redeemed from the Earth and is no longer in this world, meaning on this planet.
What that means is that the body of Christ that PAul was referring to was in fact the ONLY body and that there is no Body of the Anointed One left here in this world since he took them out of it. That means no one is being "called" today and that the need for Apostles, Shephards, and Teachers within the body have long passed.

 

[Sparkey]

The Gifts of the Spirit include 9 differing gifts:

1. The Word of Knowledge
2. The Word of Wisdom
3. The Gift of Prophecy
4. The Gift of Faith
5. The Gifts of Healings
6. The Working of Miracles
7. The Discerning of Spirits
8. Different Kinds of Tongues
9. The Interpretation of Tongues

The question, have the Gifts of the Holy Spirit ceased [in modern day] is important. But to me, the real question would be, "Have the 9 Fruits of the Holy Spirit" ceased [to be seen in mankind]?

The 9 fruits of the Holy Spirit are: Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Kindness, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self-control.

I appreciate being able to speak about the Gifts of the Holy Spirit with those who show the Fruits of that same Spirit. To me, that is the crucial message, that we continue in Love toward one another.

~Sparrow

 

[hisbeloved]

We must be careful to keep the context of what was said in mind as well. In this Corintian letter based on the surrounding context, "that which is perfect" could very well be a reference to LOVE as opposed to other ideas such as Jesus' return, the completed canon of the NT, etc.

by Bernie Parsons via Doctrinal Discussions: That Which Is Perfect[/QUOTE]

Acually Paul showed that after that which is perfect comes, then faith hope and love remain,there was nothing about love being the perfect thing, but if one insist that the gifts have ceased,then that means you are saying that we are already left with faith hope and love which means, as I showed in the original post that all preachers are now working in the flesh,since the gift of preaching has ceased too.

Also the letter that you are referring to about love is constantly reminding us that if you have any of the gifts with out love,they are meaningless

This implies that one can have a gift without love,therefore the gift is possible without love,so love is not the perfection he speaks of.

In fact one could have love and still not be perfect,we go from glory to glory,
Paul worked in the gifts but,said himself that he was not perfect,but hoped to attain to the perfection that comes at our resurrection.

 

[Alabaster]

I regret to hear that you do this, Alabaster.

Can you tell me when you last spoke to 'this people' in 'tongues'?

No need to regret that the Lord has enabled me and millions of others to pray and worship with power.

Last night in my cell group meeting many of us spoke in tongues as we ministered to a sister in need. We were praying to God according to Scripture.

Acts 10:44-46 NLT
Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the message. The Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles, too. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

1 Corinthians 14:15 NLT
Well then, what shall I do? I will pray in the spirit, and I will also pray in words I understand. I will sing in the spirit, and I will also sing in words I understand.

1 Corinthians 14:28 NLT
But if no one is present who can interpret, they must be silent in your church meeting and speak in tongues to God privately.

1 Corinthians 14:39b NLT
don’t forbid speaking in tongues.

It isn't a random gibberish-generating exercise. It is God speaking - not something you yourself call up at will when you feel like it.

Indeed, it is the Holy Spirit speaking directly to God when we pray in tongues. It is a language He knows, so I don't worry about what it is unless He gives me the knowledge about that.

So the tongue speaker could interpret. Can you? Do you? If you don't then you're benefitting nobody as Paul goes on to say in the next verse:

He says that we should ask to interpret, especially important if the tongues gift is of the prophetic type. It is essential that someone interpret for the assembly. In prayer it isn't as the Lord isn't speaking to the assembly. Rather I am speaking to God. It is for Him.

So he says, if there is nobody to interpret, then shut up.

Yes, in the assembly, if someone has a message in tongues for the group, then he or she must be quiet if no interpretation comes forward.

28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

Yes, that is what we do. We speak to God on our own in that special ministry gift we have been given. Precious!

So if you're strengthening yourself, you're not doing the job tongues was designed to do.

As God is pleased to edify us, I am edified plenty, thanks.

You only reveal yourself as unknowledgeable and unreceptive to the truth about the gift of tongues, that there is the exhortative and prophetic aspect to it and Paul teaches us how to function in that gift, but the private prayer language that he exercised most of the time as he admits, he instructs about as well.

Study, study, study! Show yourself approved!

2 Timothy 2:15 Amplified
Study and be eager and do your utmost to present yourself to God approved (tested by trial), a workman who has no cause to be ashamed, correctly analyzing and accurately dividing [rightly handling and skillfully teaching] the Word of Truth.

 

[Alabaster]

So again, if there is no interpreter, then shut up - because you're


You obviously either don't know or are choosing to overlook the fact that there are two types of tongues, one that calls for an interpretation,this is the gift of tongues, and another which is the evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost,which is a prayer language,that requires no interpretation,and it's purpose is to strengthen and build up of the one doing it,it also gives us the ability to pray the perfect will of God,which means it is doing the job that is was designed to do.

And yes ,it is true ,that if the first type is spoken out loud it requires an interpretation.(gift of tongues),this also the type that Paul is referring to when he say's that not all speak in tongues,meaning not all have this gift.

And it is also true ,that the prayer language tongues are not to be spoken aloud in the presense of unbelievers,like you quoted above, because they would think we were mad.

But your reasoning of; because people are speaking in tongues(prayer language tongues) ,out loud without an interpreter, is evidence that this gift has ceased, shows a very flawed logic.

Futher more ,I have never seen the gift of tongues(the one that requires an interpretation) fail to be interpreted.
And if you were ever present in a service where this happened,you would no longer be an unbeliever, because just before this happens,there is such a quite hush and stillness that comes over the whole congregation,you could hear a pin drop,even the babies make no sound,then the one with the gift of tongues speaks,then the interpretation comes,usually through a different person,the presense of God is so tangable and heavy,before during and after one can hardly stand it.


One more thing, you said
"Paul states quite clearly that the purpose of tongues was to speak prophetically TO THE JEWS. Here's a newer version on the matter: HCSB

How in the world do you get that Paul was saying that this is the purpose of tongues out of this scripture?


21 ¶ It is written in the law:

By people of other languages
and by the lips of foreigners,
I will speak to this people;
and even then, they will not listen to Me,

That's like saying, that because Jesus came to the Jews first and they turned him down
that makes his crucifiction void for anybody else.

 

[Alabaster]

Cool...and to be honest kinda creepy. LORD have mercy when I was 17 my cousin and I went to a teen meeting with a church and after playing volleyball and having refreshments we all went down to the basement held hands and the adults started speaking in tongues...I thought they were as scary as when I watched the Exorcist.. If you speak in tongues and I don't understand you what the heck is the purpose? if only the father can understand you then do it in private.:waving no need to to be freaky to a bunch of kids.

I agree with you. We are to be orderly and mannerly and that means being wise in knowing when and around whom you can exercise the privilege of using the gift of tongues.

 

[Alabaster]

:biglol You made me laugh! OK if we really study the word the gift of tongues bottom line is for all to understand, in fact the Holy Bible states one who speaks in tongues must have another with him to interpret otherwise what is the point?

My personal feeling: I think it's non-sense on the part of those that do it, I think it is something televangelist do to make people think they have something special and its all gibberish.

Then go and study the word and learn that what you have just said is false, taromina.

 

[Alabaster]

We are talking here about something that is very intimate - a conversation between a believer and his/her God. I am a little afraid to try to explain in great depth but it's an issue that has need of some explaining so, let me catch my breath a second, compose myself and ....


Three days ago, I was very troubled in my Spirit. There was something bothering me and I couldn't really define it. I couldn't quite get my head around the whole matter. Now, please understand that I'm what many would call an old man and I live by myself. There were no kids around (that could be freaked out). So when I went to sleep last night I prayed (in English) to God about it. When I came to things that I didn't understand and couldn't say well, I spoke in tongues, trusting God to speak through me, giving me the perfect way to express my prayer.

So, here's how it worked for me. When I wanted to say stuff that I couldn't express well - I used tongues to express it and the Spirit of God spoke out the things of the spirit while I was praying to God. You're probably familiar with the Scriptures that support that type of use but in case you're not I could go and fetch them.

Now then, if I were to go to my church (they understand the Gift of Tongues and also understand the requirement that there be an accompanying Interpretation) and if the Holy Spirit moved on me to speak out using the Gift of Tongues -- then I would. I've never been used in this capacity but understand that I could be. My point is that this is completely different than what is seen on TV (in my experience). It would be similar to when the Holy Spirit uses somebody in the Gift of Prophecy (at church). There too, somebody could speak out with God giving them the words. He he prefaces the message with the Gift of Tongues in an assembly it should be followed by the Gift of Interpretation so that everybody can understand.

So at home and by myself the use of my spiritual prayer language is different than the more formal "Gift of Tongues" that is used at church. At home, the Holy Spirit intercedes and gives utterance to things that can not be spoken. That's how Paul could say, "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than ye all." It wasn't because he jumped up in church more often than others, wasn't because he had a team of Holy Spirit interpreters that translated but simply because he did indeed speak in tongues more than they did. What Paul was talking about when he said that there must be limits on how the Gift of Tongues was used in the Corintian church was that actual "Gift of Tongues, not the tongues that oftentimes accompanies the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. One is given to the believer and the other is given to the Assembly. Many believe that Paul was addressing the later use, saying that when in church and the possibility of outsiders were present -- things need be done in proper order so that all may have benefit.

To think that I am commanded to never speak in tongues while I am praying alone in my prayer closet (or on my bed) unless there was an interpreter present is difficult for me to understand to say the least.

Hope this helps and may be accepted in the spirit that it is offered.

~Sparrow

This is right---and beautiful. Thank you, Sparrow.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I wish to use scripture to prove that the Gifts have not ceased.
only that many people have ceased to seek them.

I believe that we must use scripture to interpret scripture, And yes Paul did indicate, that what started at Pentecost would end,but he said that it would not end, until that which was perfect has come, when does this
perfection happen?

Perspective is important here. We must understand that the events of Pentecost were the exception as opposed to the rule as it pertains to the distribution of God's Holy Breath. Oftentimes it seems that we fail to realize that God gave His Breath out to individuals He saw fit to give it to BEFORE Pentecost. This massive outpouring that took place in the mid 1st century was apparently a single generation happening as if was at the end of that generation that God poured out His judgment on Jerusalem. Take that generation out and what we see throughout history is that God imparts His Breath on those He chooses and there is no formula, rhyme, or reason by which a person could perform in order to receive it.

 

[hisbeloved]

You don't need to prove all that. The Holy Spirit is alive and well in all our brothers and sisters, we just need to be quiet at times and let him work, could be that our destiny is nothing more than breaking a chain of 2 or 3 generations of drug or alcohol abuse or whatever kind of abuse for our future grandchildren when you think about it that is quite an accomplishment. The good LORD will let you know what your gift is if you ask and then listen and accept it that is the least we can do. Think of Jonah and the whale.

your right, even after the proof, people are still in denial,

 

[Bob Carabbio]

That was an EARLY error -

"The gift of tongues is for missionaries and prophets to beable to speak the language of those he is communicating the message too."

In the years immediately following the AZUZA St. revival, folks believed this, and actually committed themselves to travel to countries - PRESUMING that they would be empowered by the Holy Spirit to preach the Word in languages they hadn't learned.

It didn't take long to realize that it WASN'T going to work that way at all, and the efforts failed miserably, and were abandoned.

OCCASIONALLY, it Does happen, but VERY Occasionally.

 

[Alabaster]

Re: That was an EARLY error -

"The gift of tongues is for missionaries and prophets to beable to speak the language of those he is communicating the message too."

In the years immediately following the AZUZA St. revival, folks believed this, and actually committed themselves to travel to countries - PRESUMING that they would be empowered by the Holy Spirit to preach the Word in languages they hadn't learned.

It didn't take long to realize that it WASN'T going to work that way at all, and the efforts failed miserably, and were abandoned.

OCCASIONALLY, it Does happen, but VERY Occasionally.

That is true---thanks! :waving