Has the Gifts of the Spirit ceased?

[Watchman_2]

Note that in 1 Corinthians 12:9, the word 'gifts' is used.



1 Corinthians 12:9
To(G1161) anotherG2087 faithG4102 byG1722 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit;G4151 to(G1161) anotherG243 the giftsG5486 of healingG2386 byG1722 theG3588 sameG846 Spirit;G4151

Game. Set. Match.

LOL!! I never claimed that 'gifts' do not exist. I stated that there is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts.

You look quite foolish with your 'Game. Set. Match.' comment.

 

[Watchman_2]

Friend, if you read the NT a lot you will find that many times a particular word is left out that is verified to be appropriate according to the context. Paul was clearly describing gifts from the Holy Spirit given to individuals,so your argument that because the word "gift"was not actually in the original does not change the fact that the context proves that Paul was describing spiritual gifts given to the church. You may be correct about the word "gift" being added at a particular place, however your conclusion that this is evidence that God did not give the church spiritual gifts is faulty because the context proves otherwise.

I disagree with your unfounded assertion.

Certainly, when translating from one language to another, there are some instances where a word that is implied in one language is not implied in English. One word that comes to mind is 'of'. The tense in Greek is implied to be possessive, which warrants the inclusion of the word 'of' in English.

However, in the matter of 1 Cor. 12, no such inclusion of the noun 'gifts' is warranted, especially when the text already had the noun 'brethren', which the adjective 'spiritual' describes. One can only conclude that such addition of 'gifts' was done to corrupt the text -- not enhance the translation.

The context of 1 Cor. 12 is easily verifiable to be that of 'spriitual brethren' -- not 'spiritual gifts'.

However, as I stated in my prior reply to you, those who want to ignore Truth for their tradition of man religion, will find away to reject Truth. The Truth is that 'spiritual gifts' do not exist in God's Word.

 

[Watchman_2]

Alabaster i don't think you are gonna convince watchman of anything, after all a few post up he refused to believe you cause the you didn't use the KJV then when i came in with a game,set ,match with a KJV scripture proving him wrong,suddenly the KJV became bastardized and was no good.

Just to clarify the matter. I cite the KJV for one simple reason. It is keyed into the original manuscripts by way of Strong's Concordance. Hence, later English renderings, which may or may not [usually the latter] be a better rendering, are not normally cited by me because they are not keyed into the manuscripts. Certainly, there are errors in the KJV translation as well.

 

[Bonairos]

I had a very learned friend who went to one of these meetings and spoke in tongues. The interpreter happily interpreted away.

Not wishing to embarrass anybody, my friend left. He had been reciting Homer's Iliad in the original, and reckoned that Homer would have been very surprised to hear that that was what he had written down!

I'll say no more.

I have been silently reading this thread with intrigue. I keep myself from adding to the dialog for the simple reason of not wanting to be repetitious of what's already being said.

Nonetheless, I am compelled to chime in on this comment.

I agree with you. "Say no more!"

Though you may not have been the one with the intent and motivation to (try) and purposely deceive sincere Believer's in Christ, your repeating the act (in what appears to be glee) could associate you with being just as gulity as well.

God not only hears what is being said, but also the manner in which it is relayed.


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

 

[hisbeloved]

LOL!! I never claimed that 'gifts' do not exist. I stated that there is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts.

You look quite foolish with your 'Game. Set. Match.' comment.

If a gift is given by the spirit or from the spirit and the spirit desides what gift to give and when the gift is used, does not this by definition make it a spiritual gift, as opposed to a gift that is given from one person to another person?

the question in the thread was, has the gifts of the spirit ceased? what is your answer,based on the scriptures not based on the words"spiritual gifts"

In other words based on the scriptures does God still give gifts to people through the power of the spirit? or are you afraid to read the scriptures given? oh that's right,unless the sciptures in the KJV agree with your doctrine they are not good enough.


BTW you looked pretty foolish yourself when you told Alabaster that the KJV say's such and such,but when i pointed out what the KJV said, then suddenly the KJV was not good enough.

 

[Asyncritus]

[...] just as gulity as well.

God not only hears what is being said, but also the manner in which it is relayed.

Be blessed, Stay blessed!

Who do you think was deceiving who in the whole incident? Try the spirits, said John*

My friend, who really was speaking in a foreign language, or the interpreter who couldn't recognise it, but claimed that he did?

The interpreter was obviously doing nothing that he claimed to be doing, and claiming to have the gift of interpreting from the Holy Spirit at that!!!

God does see the hearts. I wonder what He saw that time. And what He sees in yours.

*1Jo 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

 

[Asyncritus]

In other words based on the scriptures does God still give gifts to people through the power of the spirit? or are you afraid to read the scriptures given? oh that's right,unless the sciptures in the KJV agree with your doctrine they are not good enough.

This has really gone off topic now.

If God gives somebody the great ability to paint pictures or speak well in public etc etc, do those really qualify as the sort of 'gifts of the spirit' this thread started off with?

BTW you looked pretty foolish yourself when you told Alabaster that the KJV say's such and such,but when i pointed out what the KJV said, then suddenly the KJV was not good enough.

And do these ad hominems really demonstrate the fruit of the spirit? Love, joy, peace, gentleness.goodness ...etc?

Peace, people, peace!

 

[Sam21]

I disagree with your unfounded assertion.

Certainly, when translating from one language to another, there are some instances where a word that is implied in one language is not implied in English. One word that comes to mind is 'of'. The tense in Greek is implied to be possessive, which warrants the inclusion of the word 'of' in English.

However, in the matter of 1 Cor. 12, no such inclusion of the noun 'gifts' is warranted, especially when the text already had the noun 'brethren', which the adjective 'spiritual' describes. One can only conclude that such addition of 'gifts' was done to corrupt the text -- not enhance the translation.

The context of 1 Cor. 12 is easily verifiable to be that of 'spriitual brethren' -- not 'spiritual gifts'.

However, as I stated in my prior reply to you, those who want to ignore Truth for their tradition of man religion, will find away to reject Truth. The Truth is that 'spiritual gifts' do not exist in God's Word.

You do recognize that Paul was telling the church about special abilities that were given to particular individuals at particular times by the Holy Spirit in order for the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit to be demonstrated through the individual. A special ability given by God to perform a particular supernatural act of God through that person could easily be called a spiritual gift from God. If you don't like the word gift then leave that word out,however it means the same thing.

 

[hisbeloved]

This has really gone off topic now.

If God gives somebody the great ability to paint pictures or speak well in public etc etc, do those really qualify as the sort of 'gifts of the spirit' this thread started off with?

And do these ad hominems really demonstrate the fruit of the spirit? Love, joy, peace, gentleness.goodness ...etc?

Peace, people, peace!

Nope I already pointed out that even lost people who do not have the spirit can be great painters and be great speakers

 

[hisbeloved]

I disagree with your unfounded assertion.

Certainly, when translating from one language to another, there are some instances where a word that is implied in one language is not implied in English. One word that comes to mind is 'of'. The tense in Greek is implied to be possessive, which warrants the inclusion of the word 'of' in English.

However, in the matter of 1 Cor. 12, no such inclusion of the noun 'gifts' is warranted, especially when the text already had the noun 'brethren', which the adjective 'spiritual' describes. One can only conclude that such addition of 'gifts' was done to corrupt the text -- not enhance the translation.

The context of 1 Cor. 12 is easily verifiable to be that of 'spriitual brethren' -- not 'spiritual gifts'.

However, as I stated in my prior reply to you, those who want to ignore Truth for their tradition of man religion, will find away to reject Truth. The Truth is that 'spiritual gifts' do not exist in God's Word.

1COR 12 is addressed to the brethren, and Paul tells them that he does not want them to be ignorant of spiritual gifts, then goes on to list these gifts,which most of the chapter is spent in listing these gifts to the brethren, so the subject is the gifts,call them what you will ,I will call them the nine gifts of the spirit and then there is the five fold ministry gifts.

Notice in verse 7 Paul uses the words manifestaion of the Spirit are you ok with this wording? I hope so because according to the Greek interlinear bible,

Phanerosis tou pneumatos
manifestation of the spirit


You might also want to notice that in the Greek interlinear bible in chapter 12
that the word brethren is used 1 time, the word spirit is used 12 times the word gift is used 5 times then you have the 9 gifts listed and the 5 fold ministry listed, so how do you figure that the chapter is talking about the brethren,instead of addressing the brethren about these things?

???? ?????????? ?? 12 Biblos Interlinear Bible



by the way what do you call a gift that is given by the Holy Spirit?
or if you rather, what do you call something that the holy spirit gives?

 

[Bonairos]

God does see the hearts. I wonder what He saw that time. And what He sees in yours.

WOW!! Are you serious? No need to wonder my friend. You can ask Him in your personal intimate time with Him.

Or, you can check out ALL my postings on a variety of subjects if you prefer to spend your time online (apparently) wondering about another's relationship with Christ.

And if you are gonna quote me please do so in context.

For I said, " . . . your repeating the act (in what appears to be glee) could associate you with being just as gulity as well."

Yes, (you and I both), in ALL our posts, God indeed is taking record of both WHAT and HOW we express Him.

Again whether the interpretation was right or wrong, being deceitful and motivated to purposely "trip up" sincere Believers is just that - deceit!

And to try and justify a position through a practice of deceit makes one just as guilty before God.

As for "testing the spirits" I believe most of us are doing just that and unfortunately we're hearing the results.

After all, isn't 'discerning of spirits' another spiritual gift? (Okay, for wording you might be open to, let's replace gift, with spiritual ability)


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

 

[Asyncritus]

WOW!! Are you serious? No need to wonder my friend. You can ask Him in your personal intimate time with Him.

Why would I do that?

Or, you can check out ALL my postings on a variety of subjects if you prefer to spend your time online (apparently) wondering about another's relationship with Christ.

And if you are gonna quote me please do so in context.

For I said, " . . . your repeating the act (in what appears to be glee) could associate you with being just as gulity as well."

Guilty?

Again whether the interpretation was right or wrong, being deceitful and motivated to purposely "trip up" sincere Believers is just that - deceit!

But you haven't answered my question. Have another go.

And to try and justify a position through a practice of deceit makes one just as guilty before God.

Just to remind you, the question was: who was deceiving who?

As for "testing the spirits" I believe most of us are doing just that and unfortunately we're hearing the results.

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Please elucidate.

 

[Bonairos]

I'm not quite sure what you mean. Please elucidate.

I will be happy to dialog with you.

But first, so that I know with whose I am conversing with and in which manner to speak, I ask you this, and a simple yes or no will suffice.

Are you a born-again Christian? (Again, as to not assume or presume, but ask)

As for me, I am a born-again Christian, forever grateful to God Almighty, His Son Jesus Christ, and His Holy Spirit who transforms me daily into His image.

Again, a simple yes or no will do and I will respond to your previous post.


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

 

[Watchman_2]

If a gift is given by the spirit or from the spirit and the spirit desides what gift to give and when the gift is used, does not this by definition make it a spiritual gift, as opposed to a gift that is given from one person to another person?

Gifts are not given by or from the Holy Spirit. That is a false belief resulting from the bastardization of scripture by the translators in inappropriately inserting 'gifts' into 12:1.

the question in the thread was, has the gifts of the spirit ceased? what is your answer,based on the scriptures not based on the words"spiritual gifts"

I already answered it. Since there is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts, the topic question is moot. To even ask such a question is a sign of Bible illiteracy.

In other words based on the scriptures does God still give gifts to people through the power of the spirit?

No!

or are you afraid to read the scriptures given?

No, but, it appears that you are scared!

oh that's right,unless the sciptures in the KJV agree with your doctrine they are not good enough.

So, according to your logic, the KJV translators were inspired by God?? Or, were they capable of error??

BTW you looked pretty foolish yourself when you told Alabaster that the KJV say's such and such,but when i pointed out what the KJV said, then suddenly the KJV was not good enough.

I clarified it to you in a prior post. So, why don't you get over it. If you check the manuscripts, you will see that I am correct.

 

[reba]

Personal attacks will result in deletion of your posts

 

[Watchman_2]

You do recognize that Paul was telling the church about special abilities that were given to particular individuals at particular times by the Holy Spirit in order for the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit to be demonstrated through the individual. A special ability given by God to perform a particular supernatural act of God through that person could easily be called a spiritual gift from God. If you don't like the word gift then leave that word out,however it means the same thing.

Actually, 1 Cor. 12 makes no mention of special abilities given to particular individuals and particular times by the Holy Spirit. That entire notion was developed from the bastardization of 12:1 with the improper addition of 'gifts'. The subject of this chapter is spiritual brethren.

Most in the Pentecostal and Charismacostal religions skip over v. 2-3, which is telling of the fallacy of their belief system. For it is v. 2-3 which establish the context of Chapter 12 for the subject 'spiritual brethren'. Without the Holy Spirit working in a Christian, they would be worshipping dumb idols.

This context works its way throughout Chapter 12. Everyone has gifts, which are given at birth. It is the working of the Holy Spirit that utilizes each's gifts for the betterment of the many-membered body of Christ.

 

[Sam21]

Actually, 1 Cor. 12 makes no mention of special abilities given to particular individuals and particular times by the Holy Spirit. That entire notion was developed from the bastardization of 12:1 with the improper addition of 'gifts'. The subject of this chapter is spiritual brethren.

Most in the Pentecostal and Charismacostal religions skip over v. 2-3, which is telling of the fallacy of their belief system. For it is v. 2-3 which establish the context of Chapter 12 for the subject 'spiritual brethren'. Without the Holy Spirit working in a Christian, they would be worshipping dumb idols.

This context works its way throughout Chapter 12. Everyone has gifts, which are given at birth. It is the working of the Holy Spirit that utilizes each's gifts for the betterment of the many-membered body of Christ.

Not in a million years, the abilities are GIVEN BY THE SPIRIT at the time needed,it is a work of God not some man inherited ability.

 

[hisbeloved]

Gifts are not given by or from the Holy Spirit. That is a false belief resulting from the bastardization of scripture by the translators in inappropriately inserting 'gifts' into 12:1.



I already answered it. Since there is no such thing as 'spiritual gifts' in the Bible manuscripts, the topic question is moot. To even ask such a question is a sign of Bible illiteracy.



No!



No, but, it appears that you are scared!



So, according to your logic, the KJV translators were inspired by God?? Or, were they capable of error??



I clarified it to you in a prior post. So, why don't you get over it. If you check the manuscripts, you will see that I am correct.

what manuscripts should we all believe in?

please tell me what version of the bible you will read and believe in?

you did not answer my question about the term that is used in the Greek interlinear bible that referred to the manifestation of the Spirit

could you please answer that one for me?

before I go one do you believe that the Greek Interlinear bible is bastardized too or can it be trusted?

 

[Asyncritus]

I will be happy to dialog with you.

But first, so that I know with whose I am conversing with and in which manner to speak, I ask you this, and a simple yes or no will suffice.

Are you a born-again Christian? (Again, as to not assume or presume, but ask)

As for me, I am a born-again Christian, forever grateful to God Almighty, His Son Jesus Christ, and His Holy Spirit who transforms me daily into His image.

Again, a simple yes or no will do and I will respond to your previous post.


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

I have been born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

I hope that helps.

 

[Asyncritus]

Watchman

I tend to agree with your approach to scripture: but in this case I think you're flogging a dead horse.

The AV perfectly correctly puts the word 'gifts' in italics, meaning that there is no corresponding greek word for 'gifts' just there. But that may merely be an ellipsis, rather than necessarily attaching 'spiritual' to 'brethren'.

'Spiritual' could be legitimately attached to 'brethren', but I think the most sensible way to proceed, is to examine what the different translators produce here.

The AV may be wrong - it usually isn't, but it could be. So rather than enter into too much rancour and production of ill-feeling, here is a listing of the various translations I have in the Online Bible. I hope it helps.

1 ¶ Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I would not have you ignorant. AKJV

1 ¶ Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. ASV

1 ¶ But about the things of the spirit, my brothers, it is not right for you to be without teaching. BBE

1 ¶ but, brothers, I do not want you to go on being ignorant about the things of the spirit. CJB

1 ¶ Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant. EMTV

1 ¶ Now concerning spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be uninformed. ESV

1 ¶ It is important, brethren, that you should have clear knowledge on the subject of spiritual gifts. WEYMOUTH

1 Now, concerning the spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not desire you to be ignorant. WUEST

There must be others, but I don't have them.

They seem unanimous on the point, and I think it's the context that drives their rendition.

If you look down the passage, there shortly follows a huge series of things which look suspiciously like 'gifts'. In fact there are a few 'givens' in them:

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another [is given - an ellipsis] the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another [is given - an ellipsis] faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another [is given - an ellipsis] the working of miracles; to another [is given - an ellipsis] prophecy; to another [is given - an ellipsis] discerning of spirits; to another [is given - an ellipsis]divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing [= giving] to every man severally as he will.

So with all that before us, we can easily comprehend why the translators almost unanimously insert gifts into the passage.