Have Tongues Ceased?

[journeyman]

For sure, but I don't include that in the Spiritual gift of tongues of the OP.

There is no other gift of tongues other than speaking and understanding a foreign language. This gift is for the purpose of communication between God and mankind.

I disagree, as Paul sys..."Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Cannot be uttered by humans.

27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit,

And the "mind" of the Spirit is inaudible to everyone. That's why we always hear the Spirits promptings in our own voices.

because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God." (Rom 8:26-27)

And He feels the pain experienced by the faithful in a way I don't believe anyone can understand. Of course we must understand it in a way which is plain to any sense of morality that any decent human being could understand. And that is simply by how we as fathers (and mothers) would feel at the sight of our child being abused for no other reason than hate.

Praying in tongues doesn't have to be done in French or Japanese.

No it doesn't. It just has to be sincere.

That is right, but speaking in tongues during a service is not the same as praying in tongues in private.
The first is done for the edification of the group...if there is an interpreter.
But the second is done in the privacy of personal communication between the Spirt the repentant receive and God; and is for personal edification.

Here's what Paul said,

Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 1Cor.14:6 NIV

So not understanding a language is useless. Paul isn't saying, "A language the speaker doesn't understand is edifying."

He means if you can teach in a language others can understand then your tongue is = to plain speech.

 

[Hopeful 2]

1 Corinthians 14:14-17

Paul continued to speak sarcastically (cf. 1Co_14:16; 1Co_4:8-10) about counterfeit tongues, so he used the singular "tongue" (see note on 1Co_14:2-39), which refers to the fake gift. He was speaking hypothetically to illustrate the foolishness and pointlessness of speaking in ecstatic gibberish. The speaker could not understand; and what virtue is there in praying to God or praising God without understanding? No one can "Amen" such nonsense.

I see God's gift of tongues, whether as a foreign language or the personal contact between the new Spirit within us and Father, in a different light.
I do hope you can see the difference between the fake gift and the real one.

 

[Hopeful 2]

There is no other gift of tongues other than speaking and understanding a foreign language. This gift is for the purpose of communication between God and mankind.

I disagree.
The gift of tongues that I received after my conversion is that of the Spirit and not of this earth.

Cannot be uttered by humans.

Cannot be understood.

And the "mind" of the Spirit is inaudible to everyone. That's why we always hear the Spirits promptings in our own voices.

It is audible, or nobody would know that they had received the gift.

And He feels the pain experienced by the faithful in a way I don't believe anyone can understand.

Maybe.

Of course we must understand it in a way which is plain to any sense of morality that any decent human being could understand. And that is simply by how we as fathers (and mothers) would feel at the sight of our child being abused for no other reason than hate.

Unless we have also been the gift of interpretation, we won't understand the utterings of the Spirit during prayer with it.

No, it doesn't. It just has to be sincere.

I don't think the Spirit given to the repentant would ever be insincere.

Here's what Paul said,
Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 1Cor.14:6 NIV
So not understanding a language is useless. Paul isn't saying, "A language the speaker doesn't understand is edifying."
He means if you can teach in a language others can understand then your tongue is = to plain speech.

Without the gift of interpretation or an interpreter present, our speaking in tongues should be kept for our own personal prayers.
If God moves us to speak in tongues amid a bunch of foreign speaking folks, you can be sure that God has set the stage for something really good to happen...like in Acts 2.

 

[eddif]

Ezekiel 9:4 kjv
4. And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

I disagree, as Paul sys..."Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

i agree there are times we are grieved,and words do not come out of us, but the Holy Spirit does the intercession for us.

IMHO The Ezekiel mourners OFFSPRING were the ones that heard in their own languages at Pentecost (the righteous from every nation under heaven).

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[eddif]

1 Corinthians 14:14-17

Paul continued to speak sarcastically (cf. 1Co_14:16; 1Co_4:8-10) about counterfeit tongues, so he used the singular "tongue" (see note on 1Co_14:2-39), which refers to the fake gift. He was speaking hypothetically to illustrate the foolishness and pointlessness of speaking in ecstatic gibberish. The speaker could not understand; and what virtue is there in praying to God or praising God without understanding? No one can "Amen" such nonsense.

Tongues heard in another’s language edifies them.

Tongues heard by an interpreter can be caused to be heard by others.

Tongues heard by some were/are thought to be gibberish.

Paul is encouraging those who speak in younger to learn to interpret and then share with others.

We don’t punish our children for baby talk, but help them grow in language development.

Tongues were new at Pentecost. Explanations were given at Pentecost. Paul sought to continually explain tongues.

Tongues is just the start of spiritual gifts for Sons And Daughters. We are to continue to develop.

At the last trump perfection / completion will come. Till that time we continue to strive for the prize of the high calling in Christ Jesus.

The resurrection has not passed yet. Till that time we still face issues. We encourage others.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Randy]

Hi Josef

I believe that they have certainly been less seen. I also question if their purpose is still there, and certainly where I have seen tongues, which is very, very rare, I don't see them being used as the Scriptures seem to say that they will. Those that I witness seem to be expressing more joy in their spirit with the Spirit of deposit within us. It's rather the same thing that I do when I sing. I do feel an emotional closeness to God and express that with hands of supplication spread out to Him. The Scriptures speak often as to our using our hands to express our love for Him through praise and prayer and singing and jubilee. I think that a lot of the tongues heard today are more of their way of praising God.

But they don't ever have an interpretation in the times that I've witnessed. So, for that purpose, which we find is a valid purpose in the Scriptures, I don't believe that tongues still exist. However, I freely admit that I practice my worship with a southern baptist affiliated fellowship. We don't teach or encourage the gift much... either. Others have different understandings of the gift's purpose and usefulness and that's fine. I know that if God wants me to speak in tongues then He'll give me something to say. I certainly don't see that it's ever been something that every believer has to have/experience. Certainly not as I read through the book of the Acts of the Apostles. Paul even speaks of it as something that not everyone will have. He writes to us that 'if' someone speaks in tongues, not 'when'. But he's also the one that instructs us on this ceasing of tongues.

When will that be? Why not now? I mean Paul ties this ending of these gifts into the fact that Jesus is now here. That God now speaks to us through His Son. But I'm mindful of Paul's caution to us on the matter.

"Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. "

So, I would never forbid it or tell someone to stop speaking in tongues if they felt so led.

God bless,
Ted

You don't have a tongue?

Seriously, in Acts 2 they spoke in other known languages not native to themselves.

I have never spoke in any other language then English as carried out by the Spirit.
People were healed by being in Paul's shadow in the days God was laying down the foundation of the church. Many signs and wonders.
God can certainly still do whatever He wants to do but in this day those that claim to speak in tongues suggest they do so at their will rather than when God wills. I myself don't see that as truth. The Spirit follows the will of the mind of the Spirit not any man. Jesus of course being that exception.

While I don't know in the entire world whether God wills someone to speak in tongues, I have not nor been in the presence of those who claim that gift. It appears to be a practice associated with a few denominations as if God is giving the gift in a bias manner per denomination. Unlikely in my thoughts.

While some state the presence of the Spirit is best witnessed by the fruit of the Spirit rather than tongues and discourage the practice and strongly emphasize God's call to holiness and His willingness to enable us to respond to that call through the cleansing and filling work of the Holy Spirit.

It's going to be a matter of debate with no change of mind on either side in my thinking. I lean on the side of "yes" tongues have ceased.

 

[eddif]

You don't have a tongue?

Seriously, in Acts 2 they spoke in other known languages not native to themselves.

I have never spoke in any other language then English as carried out by the Spirit.
People were healed by being in Paul's shadow in the days God was laying down the foundation of the church. Many signs and wonders.
God can certainly still do whatever He wants to do but in this day those that claim to speak in tongues suggest they do so at their will rather than when God wills. I myself don't see that as truth. The Spirit follows the will of the mind of the Spirit not any man. Jesus of course being that exception.

While I don't know in the entire world whether God wills someone to speak in tongues, I have not nor been in the presence of those who claim that gift. It appears to be a practice associated with a few denominations as if God is giving the gift in a bias manner per denomination. Unlikely in my thoughts.

While some state the presence of the Spirit is best witnessed by the fruit of the Spirit rather than tongues and discourage the practice and strongly emphasize God's call to holiness and His willingness to enable us to respond to that call through the cleansing and filling work of the Holy Spirit.

It's going to be a matter of debate with no change of mind on either side in my thinking. I lean on the side of "yes" tongues have ceased.

If I just use native intelligence as I read your post I would tend to agree.
However
The Genesis (Native) Adam and Eve Man is not exactly the Pentecost New Born again Man.

When we are born again we have:
A new heart of Flesh
A new mind of Christ

This New Man has Christ in Man. Still an earthen vessel but a changed vessel.

I am a Mississippi redneck. I am not what I will be. The good things I do are not out of my Adams nature. Christ works in us to will and do of Gods good pleasure. It is not us.

I see 3 red bells. Wonder how this post fits what they say?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Randy]

If I just use native intelligence as I read your post I would tend to agree.
However
The Genesis (Native) Adam and Eve Man is not exactly the Pentecost New Born again Man.

When we are born again we have:
A new heart of Flesh
A new mind of Christ

This New Man has Christ in Man. Still an earthen vessel but a changed vessel.

I am a Mississippi redneck. I am not what I will be. The good things I do are not out of my Adams nature. Christ works in us to will and do of Gods good pleasure. It is not us.

I see 3 red bells. Wonder how this post fits what they say?

Mississippi redneck
eddif

God does everything He is pleased to do. I don't know with any certainty if He still desires to enable by His Spirit certain believers to speak in tongues. Certainty many more Christians don't then the few who claim they do. I am skeptical of those few who claim the gift. Its a matter of debate and I doubt any will change their position on the matter in question.

 

[journeyman]

If God moves us to speak in tongues amid a bunch of foreign speaking folks, you can be sure that God has set the stage for something really good to happen...like in Acts 2.

every man heard them speak in his own language....Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. Act.2:6-8,11 KJV
l

 

[hawkman]

I don't know with any certainty if He still desires to enable by His Spirit certain believers to speak in tongues.

If you spoke in tongues when the Holy Spirit gave the utterance you would be certain . Certain is the only place I can be .

 

[Hopeful 2]

every man heard them speak in his own language....Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?...we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. Act.2:6-8,11 KJV
l

Yep.
A perfect example of the kind of tongues folks can understand because they are men's languages, as opposed to the kind of tongues just between us and God.

 

[Tedi2]

I began speaking in tongues when I was baptised in the spirit. Prior to it happening to me I too was very sceptical. I can speak 2 other languages apart from English ( French and German) to an extent. To me I thought people where making it up. I still think it's possible that some may do . I don't have the gift of public tongues or translation but have witnessed it many times. It's very real but I totally understand the questioning.

 

[journeyman]

Yep.
A perfect example of the kind of tongues folks can understand because they are men's languages,

Yes and Act.2 doesn't support a heavenly language no one could understand.

as opposed to the kind of tongues just between us and God.

It's only opposed if the speaker attempts to speak in a language not understood by the hearers. In Act.2 there were people congregated probably in groups who understood their own language.

Of course if an Apostle spoke to a group of Parthians in the language of another people described present who didn't understand the Parthian tongue, of course it would cause a laughable reaction.

Please notice some immediately heard them correctly while others said they were drunk. It got sorted out.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Yes and Act.2 doesn't support a heavenly language no one could understand.

No, it doesn't, as it is the other kind of tongues that does that.
There are two kinds of the gift of tongues.

It's only opposed if the speaker attempts to speak in a language not understood by the hearers. In Act.2 there were people congregated probably in groups who understood their own language.

You have misunderstood my use of the word "opposed".
Two kinds of tongues are mentioned in scripture.
One is like Acts 2, where the apostles spoke and other men hear in their own language what is said. (The hearers have in fact received the gift of interpretation.)
The other kind is where nobody understands what is said unless an interpreter is provided.

Of course if an Apostle spoke to a group of Parthians in the language of another people described present who didn't understand the Parthian tongue, of course it would cause a laughable reaction.

Yes, and would be a case where we should not speak in tongues unless an interpreter is present.

Please notice some immediately heard them correctly while others said they were drunk. It got sorted out.

The unfaithful will never receive the gift of interpretation of tongues.

 

[Tedi2]

I began speaking in tongues when I was baptised in the spirit. Prior to it happening to me I too was very sceptical. I can speak 2 other languages apart from English ( French and German) to an extent. To me I thought people where making it up. I still think it's possible that some may do . I don't have the gift of public tongues or translation but have witnessed it many times. It's very real but I totally understand the questioning.

That is French and German as learnt natural languages. Just to clarify.

 

[journeyman]

No, it doesn't, as it is the other kind of tongues that does that.
There are two kinds of the gift of tongues.

You have misunderstood my use of the word "opposed".
Two kinds of tongues are mentioned in scripture.
One is like Acts 2, where the apostles spoke and other men hear in their own language what is said. (The hearers have in fact received the gift of interpretation.)
The other kind is where nobody understands what is said unless an interpreter is provided.

Yes, and would be a case where we should not speak in tongues unless an interpreter is present.

Scripture clearly shows one gift of tongues. It was primarily used to share the gospel with the lost,

tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers 1Cor.14:22 ESV

The unfaithful will never receive the gift of interpretation of tongues.

Look at the verse I just quoted, because the unfaithful is who the gift of tongues was for.

Paul said,

So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 1Cor.14:23 NIV

Paul simply means the gift of languages was given so unbelievers would hear about Jesus.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Scripture clearly shows one gift of tongues. It was primarily used to share the gospel with the lost, during private prayers.

That was indeed written of, especially in Acts 2 where real languages were heard by the listeners; but there is another gift of tongues, or another manifestation of the same gift, where the Spirit of God in the man speaks to God.
Paul mentions it in Romans 8:26-27.
Let's call the first example "languages" and the second "gibberish" (as I don't know how else to describe it."
He also mentions it in 1 Cor 14:14-15.

tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers 1Cor.14:22 ESV

Tongues (languages) are most certainly a sign for non-Christian foreign seekers.
Tongues (gibberish) can be a sign for us believers, a sign of someone else's conversion.
If a new convert never speaks in tongues (during private or group prayers) his conversion comes under scrutiny.

Look at the verse I just quoted, because the unfaithful is who the gift of tongues was for.

Yes, as the faithful have no need of tongues in order for them to understand the gospel in a familiar language.
We have already heard it !

Paul said,
So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? 1Cor.14:23 NIV

In this verse Paul refers to the "gibberish" style of tongues being spoken without an interpreter.

Paul simply means the gift of languages was given so unbelievers would hear about Jesus.

If a Greek was evangelizing to another Greek, he wouldn't require the gift of tongues (languages).
If the Greek were evangelizing a visiting Chinese man, the gift of tongues (languages) would come in pretty handy.
No interpreter would be necessary. ( I feel that the Greek speaking to the Chinese would understand that his own thought were being expressed by the Spirit, so he could interpret his own message to himself.)
Speaking in tongues (gibberish) in a group setting without an interpreter is forbidden.

 

[eddif]

That was indeed written of, especially in Acts 2 where real languages were heard by the listeners; but there is another gift of tongues, or another manifestation of the same gift, where the Spirit of God in the man speaks to God.

Let me suggest another complication / simplification.

The private communication with God starts out in Church.

1. A few words are uttered in tongues in church
2. Silence
3. No interpretation
4. The tongue talker switches to speaking to God on private.
5. Order in church exists
6. The tongue talker may pray to intreptet or hear the intreptetation. (Learning experience)

I think tradition promotes Continual private tongues. The mandate is IMHO let him who speaks in tongues ( pray that he may interpret).

Tradition is not right just because 3 million people believe it.

Anyway consider a look at the examples.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[Hopeful 2]

Let me suggest another complication / simplification.
The private communication with God starts out in Church.

For your dramatization, OK. (Though the praying in tongues is usually a home-alone, or with just the church's members without visitors, thing.)

1. A few words are uttered in tongues in church
2. Silence
3. No interpretation
4. The tongue talker switches to speaking to God on private.
5. Order in church exists
6. The tongue talker may pray to intreptet or hear the intreptetation. (Learning experience).

OK, but still, if there are visitors to the meeting/service, tongues should not be used without knowing an interpreter is present.

I think tradition promotes Continual private tongues. The mandate is IMHO let him who speaks in tongues ( pray that he may interpret).

Sure.

Tradition is not right just because 3 million people believe it.

3,000,000...I wish.

Anyway consider a look at the examples.

If one starts speaking in tongues in front to visitors without an interpreter, it is wrong.
Even in our small group's pre-service prayers we don't speak in tongues in front to visitors.
We don't want to give them anything to copy that allows them to fake the gift of the Holy Ghost themselves.
We beleive the gift of tongues is part and parcel of receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[eddif]

For your dramatization, OK. (Though the praying in tongues is usually a home-alone, or with just the church's members without visitors, thing.)

OK, but still, if there are visitors to the meeting/service, tongues should not be used without knowing an interpreter is present.

Sure.

3,000,000...I wish.

If one starts speaking in tongues in front to visitors without an interpreter, it is wrong.
Even in our small group's pre-service prayers we don't speak in tongues in front to visitors.
We don't want to give them anything to copy that allows them to fake the gift of the Holy Ghost themselves.
We beleive the gift of tongues is part and parcel of receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I understand your comments .

I went through almost everything you have described lately.

A toungue talker sits in church knowing the desire to follow scripture. The talker (wrongfully?) remains quiet from the pressure against tongues. (Frustrated?) they exercise the gift in private?

The (only?) relief is to move from tongues to prophecy. Then a new problem (happens?)? Very few members are able to correct/help if you are off on what you say.

So here we sit trying to work through all the problems now.

I understand seeing through a glass darkly. I sure wait the last trump. And the clarity that is yet to come.

The 3million was about any doctrine a denomination / group thinks they are right about (because of their numbers).

Mississippi redneck
eddif