Have we "gentile-ized" Christianity?

[Drummer4Christ]

I don't mean to sound like a member of a cult but, has the West almost transformed an Eastern-centric faith into something more...western?

I know that, as Gentiles, we have been "grafted". I also know that there are several verses Western Christendom uses to claim:

1. We don't have to keep Kosher
2. Sunday is the "day of rest"
3. We don't have to celebrate Yom Kippur/Purim/Chanukah/Passover ect
4. No Circumcision

Concerning #4: Paul does explain that it is the circumcision of the heart that is important however, I would argue that the Jewish followers of Jesus in Galatia were using circumcision as a means to exclude Gentiles from fellowship.

Jesus was a Torah obedient Jew. Peter & Paul were Jewish. The Way in Acts is primarily Jewish. Except for Luke, was not every author of the NT a Jew? Did not they keep Torah as well? And the Holy Days (not Christmas), Friday evening (not Sunday morning), Hebrew Nationals (not assorted pork entrails)?

Every instance where "Scripture" is mentioned in the New Testament, it is exclusively referring to the Torah scroll.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it. In fact, He said if we loved Him, we'd keep His commands!

I'm not saying we should rock out Hasidim style but, doesn't being "grafted" mean more than converting pagan rituals into Holy events, moving the Calendar, & high cholesterol?

I'm on the fence. What are y'alls thoughts?

 

[Sparkey]

I don't mean to sound like a member of a cult but, has the West almost transformed an Eastern-centric faith into something more...western?

I know that, as Gentiles, we have been "grafted". I also know that there are several verses Western Christendom uses to claim:

1. We don't have to keep Kosher
2. Sunday is the "day of rest"
3. We don't have to celebrate Yom Kippur/Purim/Chanukah/Passover ect
4. No Circumcision

Concerning #4: Paul does explain that it is the circumcision of the heart that is important however, I would argue that the Jewish followers of Jesus in Galatia were using circumcision as a means to exclude Gentiles from fellowship.

Jesus was a Torah obedient Jew. Peter & Paul were Jewish. The Way in Acts is primarily Jewish. Except for Luke, was not every author of the NT a Jew? Did not they keep Torah as well? And the Holy Days (not Christmas), Friday evening (not Sunday morning), Hebrew Nationals (not assorted pork entrails)?

Every instance where "Scripture" is mentioned in the New Testament, it is exclusively referring to the Torah scroll.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it. In fact, He said if we loved Him, we'd keep His commands!

I'm not saying we should rock out Hasidim style but, doesn't being "grafted" mean more than converting pagan rituals into Holy events, moving the Calendar, & high cholesterol?

I'm on the fence. What are y'alls thoughts?

I heard that it was possible, although I've never actually seen it, to graft a pear branch onto an apple tree. It would go on producing pears but derive it's life from the roots of the apple tree and not die.

 

[Eventide]

I don't mean to sound like a member of a cult but, has the West almost transformed an Eastern-centric faith into something more...western?

I know that, as Gentiles, we have been "grafted". I also know that there are several verses Western Christendom uses to claim:

1. We don't have to keep Kosher
2. Sunday is the "day of rest"
3. We don't have to celebrate Yom Kippur/Purim/Chanukah/Passover ect
4. No Circumcision

Concerning #4: Paul does explain that it is the circumcision of the heart that is important however, I would argue that the Jewish followers of Jesus in Galatia were using circumcision as a means to exclude Gentiles from fellowship.

Jesus was a Torah obedient Jew. Peter & Paul were Jewish. The Way in Acts is primarily Jewish. Except for Luke, was not every author of the NT a Jew? Did not they keep Torah as well? And the Holy Days (not Christmas), Friday evening (not Sunday morning), Hebrew Nationals (not assorted pork entrails)?

Every instance where "Scripture" is mentioned in the New Testament, it is exclusively referring to the Torah scroll.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it. In fact, He said if we loved Him, we'd keep His commands!

I'm not saying we should rock out Hasidim style but, doesn't being "grafted" mean more than converting pagan rituals into Holy events, moving the Calendar, & high cholesterol?

I'm on the fence. What are y'alls thoughts?

Sunday is NOT the day of rest.. it's the FIRST DAY of the week..

Saturday is the the seventh day, the sabbath day of rest, that has not changed.

 

[Adullam]

I don't mean to sound like a member of a cult but, has the West almost transformed an Eastern-centric faith into something more...western?

I know that, as Gentiles, we have been "grafted". I also know that there are several verses Western Christendom uses to claim:

1. We don't have to keep Kosher
2. Sunday is the "day of rest"
3. We don't have to celebrate Yom Kippur/Purim/Chanukah/Passover ect
4. No Circumcision

Concerning #4: Paul does explain that it is the circumcision of the heart that is important however, I would argue that the Jewish followers of Jesus in Galatia were using circumcision as a means to exclude Gentiles from fellowship.

Jesus was a Torah obedient Jew. Peter & Paul were Jewish. The Way in Acts is primarily Jewish. Except for Luke, was not every author of the NT a Jew? Did not they keep Torah as well? And the Holy Days (not Christmas), Friday evening (not Sunday morning), Hebrew Nationals (not assorted pork entrails)?

Every instance where "Scripture" is mentioned in the New Testament, it is exclusively referring to the Torah scroll.

Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it. In fact, He said if we loved Him, we'd keep His commands!

I'm not saying we should rock out Hasidim style but, doesn't being "grafted" mean more than converting pagan rituals into Holy events, moving the Calendar, & high cholesterol?

I'm on the fence. What are y'alls thoughts?

There is a distinction to be made between Judaism and it's practices (which are obsolete) and the true foundations of our faith (Hebrew roots).

 

[reba]

Gen10:5 This is the first use of the word gentiles

H1471
גּי גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.


G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Rev11:2

This is the last time the word gentiles is used .

I am not a heathen my nationality is this

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


Might do us Christians well to not accept the label of heathen. We were born again He is our Father He is not a heathen.

 

[Drew]

Jesus was a Torah obedient Jew.

Not entirely.

Jesus clearly announced that the Law of Moses was coming to an end. And one of the ways He did this was to do certain things and make certain statements that hinted that the Torah was about to come to an end.

1. He declared all foods clean, in direct contradiction to the Torah;
2. He represented Himself as the replacement for the Temple in respect to forgiveness of sins.
etc.

So while Jesus certainly endorsed the Law of Moses, He also announced that its time was coming to an end.

So He had a big challenge - how to announce the end of the Law of Moses, without also being seen as suggesting it was a "bad thing".

 

[Adullam]

Gen10:5 This is the first use of the word gentiles

H1471
גּי גּוי
gôy gôy
go'ee, go'-ee
Apparently from the same root as H1465 (in the sense of massing); a foreign nation; hence a Gentile; also (figuratively) a troop of animals, or a flight of locusts: - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.


G1484
ἔθνος
ethnos
eth'-nos
Probably from G1486; a race (as of the same habit), that is, a tribe; specifically a foreign (non-Jewish) one (usually by implication pagan): - Gentile, heathen, nation, people.

Rev11:2

This is the last time the word gentiles is used .

I am not a heathen my nationality is this

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:


Might do us Christians well to not accept the label of heathen. We were born again He is our Father He is not a heathen.

\
Grafted into the Israel of God. Made partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light.

 

[Drew]

Jesus said He came to fulfill the Law, not abolish it. In fact, He said if we loved Him, we'd keep His commands!

Again, this is not really quite correct, in my opinion.

We know, from other things that Jesus said and did, as well as from the clear writings of Paul, that the Law of Moses was "retired" at the cross.

I suggest that what Jesus is saying here is something like this:

I have not come to abolish the Law in the sense of telling you it was a bad thing that is better done away with. Instead I am coming to fulfill the Law in the specific sense that my work will provide the achievement that the Law was striving to achieve. With that goal achieved, the Law is no longer needed. So it is retired "with honour".

I am confident that this will be met with much protestation. Well, I suggest that you have a challenge on your hands if you are trying to say that the Law of Moses, as a written code of 613 rules and practices, was not declared to have come to an end by Paul.

I suggest the way to think about this is to open your mind to the possibility that the Law of Moses was never intended to be an "eternal" thing, but it was rather something instituted by God for a specific purpose.

And that purpose was to bring history to a climactic moment at the Cross and deal death and sin a fatal blow.

With that goal achieved, the Law of Moses is no longer needed and was retired.

 

[Pard]

For the first time in my recollection I can say that I agree with Drew!

Not only do we see in the Bible that the laws the Hebrews were given to follow was to be laid to rest in the tomb with Jesus but we even see it in our own reality.

Are you aware that the Halakha (which is the Jewish law) is based more on the Talmud than it is on the Tanakh? The Jews have done away with much of their own laws as written in the Tanakh. To some this may just be a sign of laziness (or smarts :D) but if you ask me it is God's way of showing how those laws are done with since His Son came to fulfill the law.

 

[reba]

For the first time in my recollection I can say that I agree with Drew!

:

 

[Sinthesis]

Jesus brought a new and better covenant. The first covenant was not brought to an end until the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

Mat 5:18 - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.​

Christianity is growing today as it is supposed to. Today's Judaism is actually Temple Judaism that has been "pre-Christianized", so to speak.

 

[Gazelle]

(Dusting off shotgun because of the rabbit trails :toofunny...)

I think it was Christ who "gentilized" Christianity... even though the first Christians were Jewish, because so many of them rejected Christ, He was "given" to the gentiles also.

Now, regarding the Old Covenant and the Law... that was done away with, being fulfilled by Yeshua...which I might add, since there will be those who wish to dispute anything I say... which includes the 10% tithe...that is old law and we aren't under it. I daresay it's quite evident that there are legalistic Christians on this site, so they will have issues with anything that isn't required but they believe it is... oh well.

God gave the Hebrews 613 laws given in part (so many) to show them they could NOT keep the law(s) but needed a Savior, as all of mankind does. ;)

 

[Pard]

But I'm legalistic and agree with you... :yes

 

[jasoncran]

no,no the lord didnt give the 613 laws. sigh

it was the sanhendrin who did that.


that is what jesus was trying to show them. i didnt set you in bondage but freedom. his laws arent grievous. we just arent perfect.

why have the gentile thinkers have butchered the word.

fyi there was never ever such a thing as ot/nt delination a heretic called marconi was a gnostic did that and the church kept it. christ came to undue what adam did and be that high priest.


god needed a faithful high priest to intercede. that is what hebrews is all about and the reference to the priest after the order of melchisedek king of salem.


look and learn from the ot and get deep into the sacrificial system and what it pointed too and why the lord is called the lamb that taketh away the sins from the world and what the high priest did with the scapegoat.

 

[Gazelle]

no,no the lord didnt give the 613 laws. sigh

it was the sanhendrin who did that.




why have the gentile thinkers have butchered the word.

God gave the laws... in the first 5 books of the Bible, the Torah, with Moses.... not the Sanhedrin. God gave His people all those laws and commandments...and it was to prove to them that no one could keep "the law" and they needed the Messiah to come.

IDK what you are talking about accusing me, "a gentile thinker?," of butchering God's Word. I doubt God appreciates someone making such a statement about one of His followers. Why throw insults? Why the disdain (your "sigh") I just don't get it.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

So murder, adultery, stealing, lying, coveting, blasphemy are all ok too?

The Ten Commandments are part of the Law that has been, allegedly, done away with.

 

[jasoncran]

God gave the laws... in the first 5 books of the Bible, the Torah, with Moses.... not the Sanhedrin. God gave His people all those laws and commandments...and it was to prove to them that no one could keep "the law" and they needed the Messiah to come.

IDK what you are talking about accusing me, "a gentile thinker?," of butchering God's Word. I doubt God appreciates someone making such a statement about one of His followers. Why throw insults? Why the disdain (your "sigh") I just don't get it.

because the church has a history of hating jews in the past and being jewish i know this. so when gentiles teach the bible they merely read it and pray and dont learn to see what the jews actually were arguing about.

and the 613 laws came from the sanhedrin(the same guys who put together the septugaiant) and they were 70 in number.)

you also didnt know the the man herod had the priests killed and replaced them idumeans who were soo poor in the the laws and rites that they caused the people to riot. so the man and rabbi haleel sent men to teach them the law.

and its not you its the roman catholic chruch,luther and the reformers in part that have done that. the farther we are from the original jewish /gentile early church and their ways the more likely we dont really do proper exegesis.

oh and i am just as guilty of gentile thinking of the bible.

 

[jasoncran]

well then what did this mean from moses?
circumise the foreskin of your heart?

and why would god give the law and tell you do it and then demind that you do it knowing you cant?

its rather the jews and isrealites failed in their mission to be the light to the nations so god then sent his son to be that light and make then new convenent and go to the gentiles.

so was moses, et all and the noahides not forgiven they didnt recieve mercy? so the entire tanakh was writtten by unforgiven/unfaithful men

hebrews 2

17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people

Hebrews 7


1For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
6But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
7And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
8And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
9And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
10For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21(For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec
22By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself. 28For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.

God gave them laws knowing that cant follow it and to set them up? really. this is what i am talking about

God knew yes that man isnt perfect. show me in the tanakh where any of his serveants had to be perfect.?

 

[Drummer4Christ]

the farther we are from the original jewish /gentile early church and their ways the more likely we dont really do proper exegesis.

Essentially, that is the gist of the OP.

I've been waiting for you to jump in, Jason. I figured your Hebrew background would offer some insights.

 

[jasoncran]

their are others here who are way more "jewish" in thinking than i am. i wasnt raised in the temple but was told by god not to read the nt till i read the the ot first.

so i tend to see the nt a little different. some of that posting today was from stovebolts and my talking on the phone as he has the rambam commentaries.

but i can add to this even more. i have always wondered why the church runs to christmas with its paganism and blows off the channukah thing when the former alludes to the very thing we hae become? the temple.

channukah wasnt a god given thing but was done to cleanse the temple and ready it for use. the menora symolises the christ in that the middle lamp stand was bit above the others. and the candles number perfection(7) and it took eight days which also is man and god in jewish numerology.

jesus did partake in this holiday per jn 10:22