Have we "gentile-ized" Christianity?

[jasoncran]

http://www.godward.org/Hebrew Roots/hebrew_mind_vs__the_western_mind.htm

this is where the church is today.

i suggest a glance into this link and you know where i am coming from.

 

[Gazelle]

because the church has a history of hating jews in the past and being jewish i know this. so when gentiles teach the bible they merely read it and pray and dont learn to see what the jews actually were arguing about.

and the 613 laws came from the sanhedrin(the same guys who put together the septugaiant) and they were 70 in number.)

you also didnt know the the man herod had the priests killed and replaced them idumeans who were soo poor in the the laws and rites that they caused the people to riot. so the man and rabbi haleel sent men to teach them the law.

and its not you its the roman catholic chruch,luther and the reformers in part that have done that. the farther we are from the original jewish /gentile early church and their ways the more likely we dont really do proper exegesis.

oh and i am just as guilty of gentile thinking of the bible.

I refuse to take offense from your lumping everyone who is "not yourself" into one wrong bunch of people. You don't know me, nor my background, nor my education.

What you are saying to me is that God did not give those laws to Moses at all, but the judges created them and put them into the Torah and they also ended up in the Old Testament. Is that right?

Even (a non Christian at the time) Josephus wrote (in the 1st century)

"For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us disagreeing from and contradicting one another (as the Greeks have) but only 22 books [our present 39], which are justly believed to be divine; and of them, five belong to Moses, which contain his laws, and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death."165/609

(PS I thought there were 71 members of the original Sanhedrin, as Moses was a big part of receiving the law from God, yes? But the 70 did not go up on Mt Sinai to receive the law, Moses did. It is the same law(s) we are discussing, for surely the origination of the very name "sanhedrin" recognize the place and occurrence of the giving of the law to Israel by God.)



I have no such hatred for anyone, most of all the Jewish peoples...but indeed I do sense a hatred from you towards supposedly "ignorant" gentile believers. Once again I am curious why you display this sentiment..you appear to be very angry.

To elaborate as to why God (not the sanhedrin) gave man the Law. Part was to try and put restraint or limits on sin... and part was to show man how sinful he really was, not being able to keep the law, not able to save himself. The law showed them they were sinful. “I had not known sin, but by the law” (Romans 7:7). “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20).

We are not under the law. We (believers) are under grace. Law and grace are not congruous. “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse” (Galatians 3:10). However, Galatians 3:13 says that, “Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law.” “But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith” (Galatians 3:11).

Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant and replaced it with the New Covenant. In essence He condensed all those "laws" to live by down to two.

I understand that Christians who follow legalistic ways will argue, but that is none of my issue.

Referring back to the OP, it was Christ who "gentile-ized" Christianity, imo.
Be well.

 

[jasoncran]

oh please,

the church whether done good you claim, and yet it sins you ingore it? the effects have been passed on.you may not nor i have partaken the hatred but the distance and or perversion of such is still passed on. for the record i wasnt never taught to hate christians all that i know is from the parent of mine who is a jew and also the jws and reasearch.

christmas where did it come from.

list said 613 laws from the ot. and you wont find them,

josephus is a historian not a believer.

 

[jasoncran]

here i will do you a favor from chabad.org.

and they show where they get them but they aint in formal writing

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/756399/jewish/The-613-Mitzvot.htm

its by talmudic tradition. these are the torah in action.

yes the verses are there but from moses? no. down from the ages, the talmud is oral traditions.

so again you are wrong. moses didnt do that.

and jesus opened by the door to the gentiles and drummer4 christ isnt denying that but states in how we interpret the scripture.

that is what i am adressing. not whether or not we follow the law.

see the link.

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/septuagi.htm

or seventy two per this link so we are nitpicking.

 

[jasoncran]

sanhedrin is group of men formed after the exile to teach and ensure the bible was taught.

http://billpetro.com/history-of-the-sanhedrin

 

[Gazelle]

oh please,

the church whether done good you claim, and yet it sins you ingore it? the effects have been passed on.you may not nor i have partaken the hatred but the distance and or perversion of such is still passed on. for the record i wasnt never taught to hate christians all that i know is from the parent of mine who is a jew and also the jws and reasearch.

christmas where did it come from.

list said 613 laws from the ot. and you wont find them,

josephus is a historian not a believer.

A historian can't be a believer? He became one, by the way.

It's good that you weren't taught to hate Christian; I wonder why I'm sensing such cynicism from you then.

The list of "laws" numbering 613 are too long to list in one post (according to the TOS, I think). However, you can see them at this link, along with their source in the Pentateuch, Torah. http://www.aish.com/h/sh/se/48945081.html IN my belief, it's understood that Moses is the author of the first 5 books of the Old Testament...the pentateuch, the torah. All of the 613 come from those first 5 books, as you will see. Peace.

Christmas comes from Christ's mass... yes the Catholics put a name on this wonderful day of my Savior's birth! yes, they determined to celebrate on/near a heathen holiday, to draw believers away (sounds a lot like today's church fall festivals on the date of halloween ?) I personally believe Christ was not born in December.... but does a few months really matter... that the whole world celebrates the birth of my savior...now that's awesome to me .

 

[jasoncran]

yes, they did but then again the laws there arent in the ten commandments. i dont recall josephus conversion

and since when does the church have the power to take a pagan symbol and make it ok? it doesnt

if you and i were in the torah days we would die for that.

what does the yule log mean and the christmas tree? those have nothing to do with christ in fact the opposite.

http://www.christmaslore.com/the_history_of_the_yule_log.html

and the christmass tree

http://100777.com/node/1473

that one for you since you like that stuff(the anti nwo)

and also

note a history site but good enough it has a reference

http://www.assyrianvoice.net/forum/index.php?topic=8232.0;wap2

 

[mharold]

It hurt me to see how self center we be and call ourselves Christians. If you believe in GOD and Jesus Christ, They both told us and have faith and follow my commands. We steady act like Saul in the OT because his action with because of lack faith in GOD, HE told him he wasn't going to establish his kingdom upon Israel forever. 1 Samuell 13:13-14. But having faith you will also want to do what GOD want you to do because action will speak louder than words. That why Jesus was born. He show them perfect under the law. But most christian stuck in tradition which are of man and not even the bible.I remember people say what would Jesus do. I think He call almost every church in America a hypocrites. People say they love GOD but they don't walk with him like Enoch. Most people living for their selves and that chasing flesh.

 

[Sinthesis]

and since when does the church have the power to take a pagan symbol and make it ok? it doesnt

if you and i were in the torah days we would die for that.

Yes... It does. Acts 10 is not just about food.

Act 10:15 - And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.​

And we're not in "Torah days" are we. What did Christ think of the traditions of men as interpreted in the "Torah days"?

Mar 7:15 - There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 - If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.​

It works the same way for the Body of Christ.

 

[mharold]

Yes... It does. Acts 10 is not just about food.

Act 10:15 - And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
​

And we're not in "Torah days" are we. What did Christ think of the traditions of men as interpreted in the "Torah days"?

Mar 7:15 - There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 - If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
​

It works the same way for the Body of Christ.

If Christ didn't change the word of HIS FATHER ... How can a building change it. Also take these tradition of the TORAH... Matthew 12 THE LORD SABBATH as most new translation bible have it. Since only one tribe of people could be a priest basically and they use their powers for their own selfish gains that was another reason JESUS had to come save us. Matthew 12 Jesus tell how the priest could break the sabbath and be blameless and go on talking about Dave and eating the shewbread. Now are some of the tradition that came about after a period of time. Another think it was easier then than now because anyone can make to heaven if the kept the law believer or not. With no t.v. or side show thing to look at, listen to, or play . You can spend most of your day trying to make a living so the law was easy then. It just people didn't have faith.

 

[jasoncran]

Yes... It does. Acts 10 is not just about food.

Act 10:15 - And the voice [spake] unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, [that] call not thou common.
​

And we're not in "Torah days" are we. What did Christ think of the traditions of men as interpreted in the "Torah days"?

Mar 7:15 - There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Mar 7:16 - If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.
​

It works the same way for the Body of Christ.

good i like zen meditation. i will redeem that and called pondering prayer time. funny that wouldnt sit well now would it.

christmas trees arent banned on govt building yet the cross is. when you have figured why that is then you get the point

nobody has any problems with the trees or pagan symbols but put that cross up and see what objections are raised.

and in jeremiah the very act of pagan worship of tammuz is described which is what the christmas tree came from. so the church has the power to say hey the idol is ok to worship?

by now no one does that but where do we stop? next then will be zen/yoga holy ghost chanting in tounges.

 

[Sparkey]

What exactly is the issue here?

I'm trying to reconcile what I read in this discussion that seems to ask who is to blame for "Geltile-izing" the message and mission of the Son of God. Seems to me that issue was resolved and recorded in the book of the Acts of the Apostles.

Let us first ask if Gentiles can be saved (without being proselytized)? If you think yes, then we agree but how do we know this is the case? Hopefully the scholars here will be able to cite Biblical reference to the issue including how Peter witnessed the Holy Spirit being poured out upon non-Jews and how that conclusively settled the question for him and others.

We should further be able to cite Paul's thoughts about what is required of the Gentiles who were baptized into Christ. What did the Holy Spirit say through the Apostle of the Gentiles about this? I ask this to put us in mind of the facts and hope that all can agree that Gentiles were brought into the One Faith through the action of God who is the Father of all. It should be easy enough to find in the 15th chapter of Acts:

19: "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: ...

23-24: And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: ...

28-31: For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation."

The question, "Have we "gentile-ized" Christianity?" lends itself toward division not building ourselves up in our most holy faith. It is time to reassess the discussion.

 

[stovebolts]

so i tend to see the nt a little different. some of that posting today was from stovebolts and my talking on the phone as he has the rambam commentaries.

I just wanted to chime in here for a second. Yes, I am starting to look at the scriptures with a more Jewish view, but it's sifting and sorting along the way. What I mean is this. We have to use discernment because there are a lot of Jewish thoughts that are fantastic and help us understand the NT passages, and there are other thoughts that could potentially keep one away from the NT passages and deny Jesus.

An easy example of using Jewish writings would be when Jesus says, "You have heard it said" Where did they hear this from? Well, there were two major schools of thought and they argued about certain passages. Jesus is affirming one school of thought and then expands upon it in some cases. As a note, Jesus sided with Hillel on all account except divorce where he sided with Shammia.

Many times, when the scribes and teacher of the law asked Jesus a question, again, these were questions of the day and depending on how Jesus answered, he was either affirming or denying an entire school of thought.

So we've got to use discernment with our Jewish thinking and as a rule, I always take what Jesus said as a ruler to measure the Jewish writings I read.

.02

 

[Drummer4Christ]

The controversy Paul, Peter, and the early church dealt with was how to assimilate non-Jews, who confessed that Jesus Christ is the risen Lord, into the Jewish faith.

Now, it seems, it is the exact opposite. We, as the grafted branch, try to convince God-fearing Jews to give up what it is that makes them the root we have been grafted into!

 

[Gazelle]

The controversy Paul, Peter, and the early church dealt with was how to assimilate non-Jews, who confessed that Jesus Christ is the risen Lord, into the Jewish faith.

Now, it seems, it is the exact opposite. We, as the grafted branch, try to convince God-fearing Jews to give up what it is that makes them the root we have been grafted into!

Hmmm Yes, it does seem opposite in a way, I agree. We used to have them both imo... Saturday and Sunday off, both holidays (both meaning Jewish and Christian) for school etc... Our schools begin in September instead of January...and in many ways we honor at least our roots in Judaism (beyond the Judeo-Christian calendar.)

So is it really the Christian realm that is forcing the change, or the world as a whole? The world does hate the Jewish people, and the West is next in line because of Her support of the Jewish people. Anything the world can do to obliterate anything of our faiths, they will do.

I have never thought of the act of winning a Jew to Christ as making them give up what they believe... but that Christ is the author and finisher of the faith... since the OT fully portrays Yeshua, the Messiah, it's helping them take the next step imo.

 

[Adullam]

Insults, arguments, holier than thou - here we go again.

Of course we have gentile-ized Christianity. We have also Westernised it, modernised it, rationalised it, modified it, argued over it, insulted over it, killed over it and civilised it.

Anyone who thinks that Christianity is now the same as it always has been is woefully ignorant of the history of the last 2,000 years.

In our own vanity, we each assume that we 'know' what God would really want us to believe and obey that is contained in the bible. Do we really have to accept the guidance about how to treat slaves or can we make up our own minds based on our 'modern' civilisation? Do we really have to kill witches still? What about stoning people? Shouldn't wives obey there husbands? Maybe we should still be testing suspected adulterers with bitter water? I am sure you understand my point (I don't want to argue each of those by the way).

If we ignore the thousands of small Christian cults, there are about 200 major sects, orders and denomination who call themselves Christian - some of them staggeringly different. Within each of those groups there will barely be two thinking people who believe exactly the same thing because we all believe we know best. We don't accept what we are told if is doesn't seem right to us so we have completely lost any uniformity in Christianity.

Instead of obedience and uniformity, the modern conceit is to imagine that we each have a 'personal relationship' with God. In most people that justifies whatever they want it to and encourages them to dance on the head of a pin over some trivial words or beliefs that really have no importance or substance.

We all know that there was long, bitter, aggressive and destructive argument over what originally went into the bible yet some people want to carry on with that fruitless argument from a position of almost total ignorance. Why ignorance? Because virtually all of the conflicting documents they were arguing over were burned 1700 years ago.

Just pray for your fellow man and stop arguing over trivia. What was it Emperor Constantine said to the original Synod at Mycea when he felt they were taking too long? Something like, 'stop wasting your time over trivia'. Nothing changes does it!
:seehearspeak

Jdg_17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

Is there a king in Israel?

 

[Gazelle]

Might I add the thoughts about how many different sects and cults there are of Judaism now, as well?

 

[Drummer4Christ]

So murder, adultery, stealing, lying, coveting, blasphemy are all ok too?

The Ten Commandments are part of the Law that has been, allegedly, done away with.

Still waiting for a response from everyone

 

[Adullam]

Still waiting for a response from everyone

We fulfill the requirements of the law through grace...not avoid them!!!

 

[kjb1769]

The Ten commandments weren't given to the world they were given to Moses.

In the Holy Spirit inspired epistles written to the Church the Body of Christ, nine of the ten commandments are brought up as things we shouldn't do. We shouldn't murder, steal, lie, covet, on and on. The one commandment concerning the Saboath day is not mentioned.

The Gentiles that were "grafted in" we're in the covenat's of promise and Paul is trying to show them that becoming members of The Church the Body of Christ is much better!

The Ephesian letter shows us today how we can be saved. We must hear the word of truth the gospel of our salvation believe it and recieve the free gift of salvation where we are sealed until the day of redemption.

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; -1 Corinthians 15:1
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. -1 Corinthians 15:2
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; -1 Corinthians 15:3
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: -1 Corinthians 15:4