Have we "gentile-ized" Christianity?

[Gazelle]

Still waiting for a response from everyone

My apologies, it's very difficult for me to know when someone is being sarcastic or being genuine.

The Law of Moses was just a ‘shadow’ of Christ (Col. 2:17; Heb. 8:5; 10:1)

Christ fulfilled the law of Moses, which includes the 10 Commandments.
We as believers, believers who are looking back to the cross (rather than in hopes of it in the future) are not under the law, but under grace, justified by faith.

It is not a gentile thought but a believer's... Christ indeed changed things with his birth, death, resurrection; the redeeming work on the cross.

With that said, let's not confuse being "under the law" for salvation, and using the law as a good guide for righteous living. We are not under the law, we are not required to do anything (ut oh, free will comes in here)... yet to live and follow Christ (thus the name Christ-ian) is what we are called to do. It's not a requirement for salvation.

Romans 3:21-24 (NASB)

21 But now apart [a]from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all [c]have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

 

[Drummer4Christ]

We fulfill the requirements of the law through grace...not avoid them!!!

How does Grace cover eating pork but, not murder?

Paul certainly expounded upon the Law & Grace but, He clearly stated that Grace is not a license to sin.

Murder is a sin
Eating pork is a sin

Again, I am not suggesting we all start wearing yarmulke's. It just seems like we want our bacon and eat it too.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

My apologies, it's very difficult for me to know when someone is being sarcastic or being genuine.

The Law of Moses was just a ‘shadow’ of Christ (Col. 2:17; Heb. 8:5; 10:1)

Christ fulfilled the law of Moses, which includes the 10 Commandments.
We as believers, believers who are looking back to the cross (rather than in hopes of it in the future) are not under the law, but under grace, justified by faith.

It is not a gentile thought but a believer's... Christ indeed changed things with his birth, death, resurrection; the redeeming work on the cross.

With that said, let's not confuse being "under the law" for salvation, and using the law as a good guide for righteous living. We are not under the law, we are not required to do anything (ut oh, free will comes in here)... yet to live and follow Christ (thus the name Christ-ian) is what we are called to do. It's not a requirement for salvation.

Romans 3:21-24 (NASB)

21 But now apart [a]from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all [c]have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;

I completely agree. However, if I were to look at another woman lustfully, would I not have to ask forgiveness for committing adultery with her in my heart?

Why does it not work the same with eating pork (for example)?

 

[kjb1769]

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; -Colossians 2:13

Did God forgive you of all your sins?

 

[Drummer4Christ]

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; -Colossians 2:13

Did God forgive you of all your sins?

Of course. But, does that excuse me from sinning?

 

[kjb1769]

Absolutely does not excuse from sinning?
Why would think that?
Why would you continue to ask for something you already have?

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Either not keeping Kosher is a sin, which can be forgiven, or it is not a sin in the first place.

 

[Drummer4Christ]

Absolutely does not excuse from sinning?
Why would think that?
Why would you continue to ask for something you already have?

I'm not asking for something I already have. I am confessing my sins to Jesus because I fully appreciate His redemptive act.

 

[kjb1769]

Neither one of us were ever under the Mosaic Law.
Now were we?

 

[kjb1769]

Asking for forgiveness is what you posted earlier, the way I read it. Nothing in the world wrong with confessing sin or sins. However so many want to quote 1 John 1:9.

 

[reba]

christmas trees arent banned on govt building yet the cross is. when you have figured why that is then you get the point

I have wavered on Christmas and Christmas trees for years. This point you raise here Jason is quite telling. Very interesting indeed..

Jer 10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

 

[jasoncran]

Either not keeping Kosher is a sin, which can be forgiven, or it is not a sin in the first place.

kosher laws need not be kept. they are a blessing but per acts 15

Acts 15

King James Version (KJV)


Acts 15


1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
30So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
32And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
33And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.
34Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.
35Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.
36And some days after Paul said unto Barnabas, Let us go again and visit our brethren in every city where we have preached the word of the LORD, and see how they do.
37And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark.
38But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.
39And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus;
40And Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God. 41And he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the churches

The verse 29 is the answer. That said we shouldnt neglect exegis from the original culture.

 

[jasoncran]

ok, i know jeff will agree. Its more important to know what the feasts and so forth point to. The feasts point to the Lord. If you notice in the new testament God doesnt reveal any new name or his nature. One exception is the book of revalation. That my friends is chock full of prophetic revelation and also those judgments point to the nature of Christ seldom preached

for instance in the first chapter he wears the garment of the high priest and is seen as a judge.

 

[stovebolts]

Drummer,

Here's the piece I think you might be overlooking.

We are under the new covenant in Christ and as the tail end of Romans 3 and the first part of chapter 4 puts it, we are grafted into that same faith that Abraham had before he was circumcised.

Ask any Orthodox practicing Jew and they will tell you that you can eat pork all day long and not be sinning against God. Why? Because your not bound to their covenant. No, the only law that gentiles are under would be the 7 laws of Noah.

Now then, if you want to be bound by the covenant from Mt. Sinai, then that is what you will be judged by according to Paul. Personally speaking, and as the writer of Hebrew puts it, the new covenant is much better.

Oh, and didn't Jesus declare all foods clean?

 

[Drummer4Christ]

@ Jason & Stove (may I call you Jeff?)


Your posts have greatly aided in my discernment, I will not challenge their veracity.

However, concerning Mark 7:14-23 (thus purifying all foods):

Mark 7:5 has the Pharisees objecting to the Disciples not "walking in the traditions of the elders" by "eating bread with unclean hands."

So, the context isn't about "unclean" foods.

I would argue (grab an interlinear Bible) that a more accurate translation of verse 19 is this:

18 So He said to them, ;Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?

Notice how "thus purifying all foods" is a continuation of Jesus' words, not commentary by Mark.

Jesus, in this instance, specifies the sinful behavior that emanates from within a man is what defiles him. Not a mere act of defilement i.e. eating bread with unclean hands (or eating pork for that matter)

 

[Gazelle]

I completely agree. However, if I were to look at another woman lustfully, would I not have to ask forgiveness for committing adultery with her in my heart?

Why does it not work the same with eating pork (for example)?

I draw your attention to the Scriptures which tell of Peter's dream of eating unclean animals. Acts 10:9-16 NKJV 9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of he earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." 14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean." 15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common." 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

That verse directly shows the new attitude towards foods, but also towards all men (gentiles.)

Paul said all things are lawful but all things are not expedient.

I don't eat pork --nor any shell fish-- because they are the scavengers of the world. I believe God had good reason (in man's reasoning) to have us avoid such foods. Even with today's modern technology, they can't stop these from being scavengers, or such as the hog, give it sweat glands etc., So while I am allowed by God to eat everything, it isn't expedient, it isn't the healthiest way to eat.

Christ did not "do away" with the law, but fulfilled it for us. We do not have to keep the law for salvation. It would be expedient for us to live our lives as close to God as possible though. But we do this under grace, and not under the pressure of having to keep that law.

Likewise, we are not to look upon any man as being less than a creation of God... as unclean. For the Jew, this is probably best shown in the attitude towards the gentile. I think it also is effective for the ill, such as those with aids, in today's world?

 

[Drummer4Christ]

I draw your attention to the Scriptures which tell of Peter's dream of eating unclean animals. Acts 10:9-16 NKJV 9 The next day, as they went on their journey and drew near the city, Peter went up on the housetop to pray, about the sixth hour. 10 Then he became very hungry and wanted to eat; but while they made ready, he fell into a trance 11 and saw heaven opened and an object like a great sheet bound at the four corners, descending to him and let down to the earth. 12 In it were all kinds of four-footed animals of he earth, wild beasts, creeping things, and birds of the air. 13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." 14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean." 15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common." 16 This was done three times. And the object was taken up into heaven again.

That verse directly shows the new attitude towards foods, but also towards all men (gentiles.)

Paul said all things are lawful but all things are not expedient.

I don't eat pork --nor any shell fish-- because they are the scavengers of the world. I believe God had good reason (in man's reasoning) to have us avoid such foods. Even with today's modern technology, they can't stop these from being scavengers, or such as the hog, give it sweat glands etc., So while I am allowed by God to eat everything, it isn't expedient, it isn't the healthiest way to eat.

Christ did not "do away" with the law, but fulfilled it for us. We do not have to keep the law for salvation. It would be expedient for us to live our lives as close to God as possible though. But we do this under grace, and not under the pressure of having to keep that law.

Likewise, we are not to look upon any man as being less than a creation of God... as unclean. For the Jew, this is probably best shown in the attitude towards the gentile. I think it also is effective for the ill, such as those with aids, in today's world?

Well stated.

However, I would argue that Peters vision speaks directly to fellowship with Gentiles, not necessarily to eating unclean foods. That is what Peter was struggling with, as I've mentioned previously, the assimilation of Gentile believers into the Jewish faith.

Concerning AIDS (and to tie in Mark 7:14-23) it is the sexually immoral behavior that emanates from within that makes the person w/ AIDS unclean, not the disease itself. Assuming, of course, that the AIDS sufferer is an unrepentant sinner.

 

[Adullam]

One aspect of Gentilizing the faith that is often overlooked is the way Christianity has been turned into a religion...rather than a way of life.

The Jews live in compact communities...living in the same area within walking distance of the synagogue.

Christians tend to only want to live like the world...and at certain times get together. They are spread out all over the city or beyond. There is no community...just religious services.

 

[Gazelle]

Well stated.

However, I would argue that Peters vision speaks directly to fellowship with Gentiles, not necessarily to eating unclean foods. That is what Peter was struggling with, as I've mentioned previously, the assimilation of Gentile believers into the Jewish faith.

Concerning AIDS (and to tie in Mark 7:14-23) it is the sexually immoral behavior that emanates from within that makes the person w/ AIDS unclean, not the disease itself. Assuming, of course, that the AIDS sufferer is an unrepentant sinner.

As I posted, that vision spoke to both imo. (There is other evidence of eating what would be considered unclean, yet blessed by God is clean--other verses.)
[ Mark 7:18 (NIV) "Are you so dull?" he asked. "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? Mark 7:19 (NIV) For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.") Mark 7:18 (KJV) And he saith unto them, Are ye so without understanding also? Do ye not perceive, that whatsoever thing from without entereth into the man, it cannot defile him; Mark 7:19 (KJV) Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?]

As for the aids comment, well, no I don't agree about it being put upon sinful people...if that's what you meant. There's good evidence that Jonas Salk may have caused it, as he himself felt (which is why he joined the research on aids) when he tested and used that specie of monkey (where they believe the origin of aids lies) for the polio vaccine. Plus I know too many good Christians who are HIV + because of tainted blood transfusions (of old.) It may very well have travelled because of the overall sinfulness of the world today, though.

 

[Gazelle]

One aspect of Gentilizing the faith that is often overlooked is the way Christianity has been turned into a religion...rather than a way of life.

The Jews live in compact communities...living in the same area within walking distance of the synagogue.

Christians tend to only want to live like the world...and at certain times get together. They are spread out all over the city or beyond. There is no community...just religious services.

I basically agree with what you've posted. Many times I try to explain to unbelievers (on another site) how following Christ is not a religion, being Christian, but is a way of living, it's 'faithing' and relying upon God day to day by trying to follow His Word. It's not a method of following nor of being good before God through man-made traditions and such.

Not that there's a lot wrong with religious traditions of worship. ;) It is the way we fellowship, and have that community. It is different in larger cities etc, unless the church members work hard at keeping it a close community of believers. I, for one, miss living in MO for this very reason: we were neighbors and friends, fellowshipping, praying, being "there" for each other like a good family would be... where I'm at now, I have no church to attend and it's very, very difficult to not enjoy fellowship with other believers.