Having Sex Before You Say I Do With Your Spouse Before You Marry Them!

[th1b.taylor]

I answered every single question asked of me in this thread. If my answers were not to your liking, so be it.

No, I have asked only one and that yoiu, actually, forgot it? ¡No! You didn't and you have made no effort to find the answer... or you are too proud to admit there is none that support your position. I know the answer, do you? By this point, every soul that has read this exchange knows the answer and most are chuckling... I'm not, nor have I condemned you to anything. I am trying to help you heal this sin issue so we can rejoice together in Heaven.

Your failure to see the love of God in what I am trying to do for you was crystal clear when I began this exchange with you, You were not, originally preaching a complete falsehood and had you ended the message with the escape from damnation through the loving forgiveness of our Savior/God, there would have been no error.

Since that time, trying to defend your pride issue you have posted scriptures that had nothing to do with defining your ¿favorite? damnable sin but you did draw them out of their, God, intended context and then tried to twist them (adding to the scriptures what God has not placed there) to suit the purposes of your pride issue.

Look, I'm 71 and a respected and consulted elder but without prayer, study, prayer and meditation, all lead by God, I am just one more old fool... you are not any better than I, now, are you? That is how you are acting.

 

[jocor]

No, I have asked only one and that yoiu, actually, forgot it? ¡No! You didn't and you have made no effort to find the answer... or you are too proud to admit there is none that support your position. I know the answer, do you? By this point, every soul that has read this exchange knows the answer and most are chuckling... I'm not, nor have I condemned you to anything. I am trying to help you heal this sin issue so we can rejoice together in Heaven.

TO ANYONE READING THIS RIDICULOUS EXCHANGE: If anyone knows the question that I am supposed to know and knows the answer as well, PLEEEEASE tell me what it is. I have no idea what Bill Taylor is babbling about or why he keeps personally attacking me even though he denies any personal attacks.

 

[th1b.taylor]

TO ANYONE READING THIS RIDICULOUS EXCHANGE: If anyone knows the question that I am supposed to know and knows the answer as well, PLEEEEASE tell me what it is. I have no idea what Bill Taylor is babbling about or why he keeps personally attacking me even though he denies any personal attacks.

The question is and has remained can you with scripture, define fornication. Define is to clearly illustrate what fornication is. I have not checked your age and shame on me for that because you could be my age and suffering from Alzheimer's and if so you have every reason to forget what was being discussed, right in the middle of the conversation.

Instances of fornication without specific mention of the circumstances or detais of the offense are not defining scriptures. i.e. Thou shalt not murder does, in no fashion, define murder.

 

[jocor]

The question is and has remained can you with scripture, define fornication. Define is to clearly illustrate what fornication is. I have not checked your age and shame on me for that because you could be my age and suffering from Alzheimer's and if so you have every reason to forget what was being discussed, right in the middle of the conversation.

I answered that question long ago. Then I answered it again referring back to my first answer. Yet, you acted like I never addressed the question in the first place because you didn't like my answer. So we wasted all this time because you couldn't restate the question again until now.

Instances of fornication without specific mention of the circumstances or detais of the offense are not defining scriptures. i.e. Thou shalt not murder does, in no fashion, define murder.

Sorry, but they had no cars back then, so I can't find a Scripture talking about two teens lusting in the back seat of a car that calls it fornication instead of marriage.

I'll just address one verse at a time.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
​

"Not to touch a woman" does not mean we cannot hold hands or elp them up if they fall down. It means to have sex with them.

1Co 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
​

To avoid having sex with a woman you are not married to, you should get a wife. Then you would be free to have sex all you want because she is your wife. You would not be committing fornication/porneia because you are in a lawful relationship. If you are not married and have sex with a woman (touch a woman), it is unlawful sex and it is most definitely a sin. This is especially true of two teens having sex in the back seat of a car. It is the product of forbidden lust. They have no intention of joining in marriage through such a filthy act and it grieves the Holy Spirit to witness such carnal lust and sin.

Please do not reply with an attack on me personally. Feel free to attack my commentary as much as you want and then give your commentary.

 

[JLB]

To avoid having sex with a woman you are not married to, you should get a wife.

Again, "being married" is the issue.

Define what you believe being married is.

Does it involve a marriage license and a ceremony.

Example:

A young Muslim woman who grew up with a young man from her village who recently converted to Christ, begins to see a change in him.

He begins to teach her about Jesus, and after about six months, she falls in love with him, and becomes saved, and Baptised.

They want to get married, but would surely be killed by her father and brothers, according to sharia law.

They decide to commit to one another in marriage and kneel down before the Lord and say their vows.

They decide to save enough money to move away to a place where they can be formerly discipled and grow strong in the Lord, and have a marriage ceremony in a Church.

They continue in secret for a year till they save up and can leave.

Are these two fornicating?


JLB

 

[jocor]

Again, "being married" is the issue.

Define what you believe being married is.

Does it involve a marriage license and a ceremony.

Example:

A young Muslim woman who grew up with a young man from her village who recently converted to Christ, begins to see a change in him.

He begins to teach her about Jesus, and after about six months, she falls in love with him, and becomes saved, and Baptised.

They want to get married, but would surely be killed by her father and brothers, according to sharia law.

They decide to commit to one another in marriage and kneel down before the Lord and say their vows.

They decide to save enough money to move away to a place where they can be formerly discipled and grow strong in the Lord, and have a marriage ceremony in a Church.

They continue in secret for a year till they save up and can leave.

Are these two fornicating?


JLB

IMHO, they would be married. The vow before YHWH binds them in marriage. That is far different than two teens in the back seat of a car lusting in the flesh.

 

[th1b.taylor]

I answered that question long ago. Then I answered it again referring back to my first answer. Yet, you acted like I never addressed the question in the first place because you didn't like my answer. So we wasted all this time because you couldn't restate the question again until now.


Sorry, but they had no cars back then, so I can't find a Scripture talking about two teens lusting in the back seat of a car that calls it fornication instead of marriage.

I'll just address one verse at a time.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
​

"Not to touch a woman" does not mean we cannot hold hands or elp them up if they fall down. It means to have sex with them.

1Co 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
​

To avoid having sex with a woman you are not married to, you should get a wife. Then you would be free to have sex all you want because she is your wife. You would not be committing fornication/porneia because you are in a lawful relationship. If you are not married and have sex with a woman (touch a woman), it is unlawful sex and it is most definitely a sin. This is especially true of two teens having sex in the back seat of a car. It is the product of forbidden lust. They have no intention of joining in marriage through such a filthy act and it grieves the Holy Spirit to witness such carnal lust and sin.

Please do not reply with an attack on me personally. Feel free to attack my commentary as much as you want and then give your commentary.

You have, in another form, failed to define from all of the Bible and from my, here to fore, undisputed view, you have not used the Bible (the Bible Jesus used) to define anything, you did, however, use the only God certified commentaries, so okay.

Two distinct issues. Just as you, in the post that I accused you of demonstrating "No" love, you are still showing, only, judgment and no hope of escape. As I told you in the beginning, I am a Hell's Fire and Damnation Teacher but I am careful to always include the Gospel of Jesus the Christ and His forgiveness, when repenting and seeking the truth.

And then, you have failed to use God's view on marriage.
As per your view, Adam, Eve, Israel, Rebecka and every man and woman ever born before some preacher dreamed up the marriage ceremony died in an unforgiven state of sin and as per Matthew 27:52, 53, that is not so because even the sin stricken Abraham, who was wed to his half sister was found in Paradise when Jesus tore the gates down and took their spirits to Heaven to be with Him there.

And the Love of God negates everything if the teachers are faithful to preach the truth leaving only a person dying without Jesus to be unforgivable. And you are not addressing what God has been faithful to keep for us to teach, a man and a woman, coupling, are married. Not in the eyes of any man but in the eye of God. And one or both, from that point can, indeed sin against God in any number of ways but the truth is that Fornication is noit as simple as you, appear, to want it to be.

 

[th1b.taylor]

IMHO, they would be married. The vow before YHWH binds them in marriage. That is far different than two teens in the back seat of a car lusting in the flesh.

But, please, what is marriage in the eye of God, please help everyone on this.

 

[JLB]

IMHO, they would be married. The vow before YHWH binds them in marriage. That is far different than two teens in the back seat of a car lusting in the flesh.

I agree.


JLB

 

[jocor]

You have, in another form, failed to define from all of the Bible and from my, here to fore, undisputed view, you have not used the Bible (the Bible Jesus used) to define anything, you did, however, use the only God certified commentaries, so okay.

Sorry. I didn't know I was not allowed to use the NT.

Two distinct issues. Just as you, in the post that I accused you of demonstrating "No" love, you are still showing, only, judgment and no hope of escape. As I told you in the beginning, I am a Hell's Fire and Damnation Teacher but I am careful to always include the Gospel of Jesus the Christ and His forgiveness, when repenting and seeking the truth.

You did not ask me to deal with how we relate to one committing fornication. You simply asked me to define it.

And then, you have failed to use God's view on marriage.
As per your view, Adam, Eve, Israel, Rebecka and every man and woman ever born before some preacher dreamed up the marriage ceremony died in an unforgiven state of sin and as per Matthew 27:52, 53, that is not so because even the sin stricken Abraham, who was wed to his half sister was found in Paradise when Jesus tore the gates down and took their spirits to Heaven to be with Him there.

I never said they died "in an unforgiven state of sin". Nor does my view suggest they did. Their first sexual act was proper and within YHWH's will.

And the Love of God negates everything if the teachers are faithful to preach the truth leaving only a person dying without Jesus to be unforgivable. And you are not addressing what God has been faithful to keep for us to teach, a man and a woman, coupling, are married. Not in the eyes of any man but in the eye of God. And one or both, from that point can, indeed sin against God in any number of ways but the truth is that Fornication is noit as simple as you, appear, to want it to be.

I addressed what you asked me to address. If you need me to address more, then ask me instead of making it appear that I am so negligent and unloving.

Also, you have yet to give Scripture supporting your position or negating mine. Until you do so, I stand by the Scriptures I presented.

 

[jocor]

But, please, what is marriage in the eye of God, please help everyone on this.

Here are some of my thoughts off the top of my head concerning only OT marriage. For NT marriage, there are more options.

If two people make a vow to each other before YHWH to become husband and wife, YHWH honors that marriage even though they did not have a ceremony or a license.
If two sets of parents agree that their children will marry the others children and they exchange ,gifts, dowries, bride prices , etc., they are permitted to lawfully consummate the marriage by physically joining and becoming one.
If a man seduces a female and lies with her with her consent, they are not married until the man pays the father of the girl a certain amount of money.
Certain OT men like Rehoboam had concubines and wives (2 Chr 11:21). Even though he had sex with his concubines, they did not become his wives. They are in a different category. Two parties must mutually agree to marry in order for any marriage to be lawful.
If a couple, for one reason or another, cannot have sexual intercourse, that does not mean they can never be married. There are a variety of ways a marriage can take place without sex being involved as stated above.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Sorry. I didn't know I was not allowed to use the NT.

See, there you go poking, right off the bat. By implication you have accused me of being two faced. I have looked now and you are only ten years my junior, assuming your stats are also honest and being that age you would, of necessity, need to be undereducated to not realize that words have cause and effect and being sixty-one you have had a lot of practice in forming sentences.

That leaves me no choice but to, reasonably, conclude the jabs are intentional and that will garner no sugar from the Cain Field, sir.

I did ask you to use the Bible and since you, certainly, by this point, should be able to discern I am a very Fundamental Christian Believer and it ¿might? have occurred to you that I would try, as much as possible, to use the Bible as it was recognized by the Savior and, of course, Jesus had not inspired the penning of the Commentaries known today, incorrectly, as the New Testament.

You did not ask me to deal with how we relate to one committing fornication. You simply asked me to define it

Yes I did and I asked you to define it with the Bible, a task you have yet to attempt. Not good conversational skills, ignoring and attempting to force the direction of a conversation that could be mutually beneficial to both the readers and the litigants.

I never said they died "in an unforgiven state of sin". Nor does my view suggest they did.

By not directing the conversation away from that possible conclusion you left it open ended. Now, in a conversation in the PMs with you and I exclusively, there is not such a danger. However, in an open forum, where Spiders crawl the Web, recording everything we say it is entirely possible that any Babe in Christ, or child might search Google, Yahoo or Bing and stumble into this conversation. They need not even be a member to read all of this string.

You may even be one that despises my proclamations but the truth of the matter, by publishing the content that drew my ire, you have assumed the mantle of Elijah, requiring great caution to not err and to never cause one to stumble but leaving that post open ended you did just that.

Their first sexual act was proper and within YHWH's will.

And you are saying it never has been again? I did include every marriage since.

I addressed what you asked me to address. If you need me to address more, then ask me instead of making it appear that I am so negligent and unloving.

Also, you have yet to give Scripture supporting your position or negating mine. Until you do so, I stand by the Scriptures I presented.

You have established nothing except more questions to this point.

 

[jocor]

See, there you go poking, right off the bat. By implication you have accused me of being two faced. I have looked now and you are only ten years my junior, assuming your stats are also honest and being that age you would, of necessity, need to be undereducated to not realize that words have cause and effect and being sixty-one you have had a lot of practice in forming sentences.

That leaves me no choice but to, reasonably, conclude the jabs are intentional and that will garner no sugar from the Cain Field, sir.

I did ask you to use the Bible and since you, certainly, by this point, should be able to discern I am a very Fundamental Christian Believer and it ¿might? have occurred to you that I would try, as much as possible, to use the Bible as it was recognized by the Savior and, of course, Jesus had not inspired the penning of the Commentaries known today, incorrectly, as the New Testament.



Yes I did and I asked you to define it with the Bible, a task you have yet to attempt. Not good conversational skills, ignoring and attempting to force the direction of a conversation that could be mutually beneficial to both the readers and the litigants.



By not directing the conversation away from that possible conclusion you left it open ended. Now, in a conversation in the PMs with you and I exclusively, there is not such a danger. However, in an open forum, where Spiders crawl the Web, recording everything we say it is entirely possible that any Babe in Christ, or child might search Google, Yahoo or Bing and stumble into this conversation. They need not even be a member to read all of this string.

You may even be one that despises my proclamations but the truth of the matter, by publishing the content that drew my ire, you have assumed the mantle of Elijah, requiring great caution to not err and to never cause one to stumble but leaving that post open ended you did just that.



And you are saying it never has been again? I did include every marriage since.


You have established nothing except more questions to this point.

Unless you lay out your position with Scripture, we are done.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Unless you lay out your position with Scripture, we are done.

I did a couple of times and you have yet to do so and you can run any time you choose to.

 

[LiLJAM3Z]

Edited reba

TOS ... Active promotion of sinful behavior will not be permitted. This includes promotion of sexual sin and/or homosexual behavior. Do not make statements either by posts or posting URLs to other Websites which advocate activities, beliefs or teachings contrary to those of Christianity as articulated by the historic creeds, as understood by Evangelicalism, and as interpreted by the christianforums.net Leadership's sole discretion.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It's not like you will go to hell for this, its mroe like

False! It is sin and all sin that is u repented of will send you to the Eternal Lake of Fire. And if you will ask God to teach you and then read His Word from the beginning to the end for a few year, God will teach you that every one of those young ladies you defiled, you married them in the eyes of god as soon as the two of you coupled. And then you married the next one without even a letter of divorcement.,. more sins that must be fully repented of.

Son, you need to study scripture and discover the truth about God.

 

[Obadiah]

well most people want to make sure their partner knows whats they're doing y'kno so they're experimenting. its like in elementary and high school... they practice to be a better kisser, they practive sex in different areas. It could be that, or it could just be the soul mating i nwhich they feel eachothers presence of soul/spirit and feel the power of enrgery they have bonded with eachother and crave mroe than just a simple hug. It's a struggle between ritual and murphys law. for some, this just may happen.

It's not like you will go to hell for this, its mroe like, what you should do is wait i suppose but sex is a aprt of lfie for some lfiestyles/lifes too... God would just look at it at the gates of Heaven in the perspective of true hearts and stuff like that plus karma would balance it out if it was just for pleasure and you didnt talk to the person or were rude in soem sort of way

But keep in mind you are posting on a Christian site. I know there are some people who can show that scripture doesn't really condemn sex outside of marriage through things like the origins of certain words of the original language of scripture and such. But I think you will find on a Christian site like this most Christians are of the mindset, as well as most churches teach, that any sex outside of marriage is a sin and it is a sin that you will indeed go to hell for if you do not avail yourself to the forgiveness provided by Jesus. Of course, for the non-christian it's a moot point because sin is sin, and all sin is punishable by hell. There is no "well, I guess you were good enough" at the gates of heaven. The only way for any of us to get in is to be forgiven for all of our sins, and the only way to be forgiven is to accept that forgiveness that was bought for us by Jesus when he paid for it with his life on the cross.

 

[LiLJAM3Z]

False! It is sin and all sin that is u repented of will send you to the Eternal Lake of Fire. And if you will ask God to teach you and then read His Word from the beginning to the end for a few year, God will teach you that every one of those young ladies you defiled, you married them in the eyes of god as soon as the two of you coupled. And then you married the next one without even a letter of divorcement.,. more sins that must be fully repented of.

Son, you need to study scripture and discover the truth about God.

but wheres the common courteousy towards the youth?

 

[LiLJAM3Z]

i was confused why it was sin to go to hell. I just realized its because to have sex with someone it is a soul mating thing so it tampers with ourselves meaning self-mutilation and can cause the soul and heart to be unpure by moving forward and to keep dongi so is dirty for the mentality heart and soul so now i understand. im just not aware of the sin part of it from christian perspectives but now i know. sorry, but , i hope i have helped with my newest perspective

 

[Obadiah]

but wheres the common courteousy towards the youth?

I don't see where what Bill said was discourteous toward youth...