Having Sex Before You Say I Do With Your Spouse Before You Marry Them!

[jocor]

Sorry, old brains and train of thought.
Jethro defining where your brain is is much akin to me doing a successful Brain Transplant on you! And I repeat, With you defining your term usage with the scriptures, you have no point to make.

Here we find ourselves in the middle of the Parenting And Marriage Forum buried inside the Christian Forums... Bible Based Instruction and definition is everything important.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

 

[jocor]

You keeping Commandments and my keeping Commandments does not Legalism manufacture. Asserting, intentionally or unintentionally makes one a Legalist! I repeatedly have and do teach the importance of the Ten Commandments but I do not assert all must obey the Letter of the Law, just the Spirit of the Law. Teaching the Letter makes the teaching Legalism.

Tell me, what is the "Spirit of the Law" concerning adultery? Are you saying we can break the letter of the law of adultery?

 

[th1b.taylor]

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

You are not building your posts on the Bible and if you are a Christ Follower, that is the basis for your every opinion and Jethro is not your Bible. What Jethro adds later has nothing to do with you being based on scripture. It may demonstrate Jethro is but Jethro is not delving in legalism.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Tell me, what is the "Spirit of the Law" concerning adultery? Are you saying we can break the letter of the law of adultery?

I said nothing of the sort but you did come back putting words into my mouth, just as is usually the case with the legalist.

 

[jocor]

I said nothing of the sort but you did come back putting words into my mouth, just as is usually the case with the legalist.

You wrote, "I repeatedly have and do teach the importance of the Ten Commandments but I do not assert all must obey the Letter of the Law, just the Spirit of the Law. Teaching the Letter makes the teaching Legalism."

I know for a fact that we MUST obey the letter of "Thou shalt not commit adultery" as well as the magnification of it to not even lust in our heart. Do you? If so, then your above statement is not true. If not, then you are a promoter/condoner of sin.

 

[jocor]

You are not building your posts on the Bible and if you are a Christ Follower, that is the basis for your every opinion and Jethro is not your Bible. What Jethro adds later has nothing to do with you being based on scripture. It may demonstrate Jethro is but Jethro is not delving in legalism.

I replied to your false teaching with Scripture in post #51. Here is another:

Jdg 19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
​

This is what you call marriage??? All these men married this poor girl who was raped and abused???

 

[th1b.taylor]

You wrote, "I repeatedly have and do teach the importance of the Ten Commandments but I do not assert all must obey the Letter of the Law, just the Spirit of the Law. Teaching the Letter makes the teaching Legalism."

I know for a fact that we MUST obey the letter of "Thou shalt not commit adultery" as well as the magnification of it to not even lust in our heart. Do you? If so, then your above statement is not true. If not, then you are a promoter/condoner of sin.

You are one hundred percent into the corner with legality now so tell me, Adultery, does it have an unpardonable result? And if so what is it?

 

[th1b.taylor]

I replied to your false teaching with Scripture in post #51. Here is another:

Jdg 19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
​

This is what you call marriage??? All these men married this poor girl who was raped and abused???

That scripture has nothing to do with defining the Crime against God you are asserting, you are dodging. Remember you said Fornication? Come on please, I'm 71 with better than 70 leasons on my brain but I can remain on topic here.

 

[jocor]

You are one hundred percent into the corner with legality now so tell me, Adultery, does it have an unpardonable result? And if so what is it?

No, it doesn't. Adultery is a sin that can be forgiven.

 

[jocor]

That scripture has nothing to do with defining the Crime against God you are asserting, you are dodging. Remember you said Fornication? Come on please, I'm 71 with better than 70 leasons on my brain but I can remain on topic here.

I am not dodging anything. How can I dodge if I don't even know what I'm supposed to be dodging?
Are you asking me to define fornication? If so, I derive my understanding from the following two verses:

1Co 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
​

In 7:2, Paul is teaching us that we should avoid sexual immorality by having a wife. The Greek word "porneia" translated "fornication" refers to various forms of sexual immorality like incest, adultery, sodomy, sex before marriage, etc. IOW, "fornication" in 7:2 is a sexual sin that occurs BEFORE one is married. Although it can include adultery which only occurs AFTER marriage, the context of this verse excludes adultery.

In 10:8, Paul is referring back to Numbers 25 where the Israelite men were having sex with Moabite women. They were not married to these women. In addition to idolatry, their sin was sex before marriage. The OT calls it "whoredom/harlotry" and the NT calls it "fornication".

 

[Corn Pop]

So i have to wait until a man says im now married, and say I do, and a piece of paper is signed before i can be with my wife?. I think i would rather God be witness and celebrant, as he knows if the heart is genuine for a long term relationship or if im just in for a lustful overnight relationship. No papers needed, and no words need be said, just like Adam and Eve, they were not religious.

 

[th1b.taylor]

No, it doesn't. Adultery is a sin that can be forgiven.

But you said that you know we must obey the commandment not to commit Adultery and with any inclusion of the rest of scripture, the Gospel, the sole conclusion is Eternal Damnation without hope!

By the way, why are you abandoning your position and bringing in adultery, it is your professed position that I am a bit of a screwball for agreeing with Dianne that once coupled, they are, scripturally, married, have3 you begun to agree with us?

 

[th1b.taylor]

I am not dodging anything. How can I dodge if I don't even know what I'm supposed to be dodging?
Are you asking me to define fornication?

Please, I am restraining myself just short of binding my hands to keep from screaming what has been obvious from the time I joined this string. By this time, you asking this has set a large portion of the Christ Following Devotees to roaring with laughter at the real life Amos and Andy Comedy skit contained here in.

If so, I derive my understanding from the following two verses:

1Co 7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
In 7:2, Paul is teaching us that we should avoid sexual immorality by having a wife. The Greek word "porneia" translated "fornication" refers to various forms of sexual immorality like incest, adultery, sodomy, sex before marriage, etc. IOW, "fornication" in 7:2 is a sexual sin that occurs BEFORE one is married. Although it can include adultery which only occurs AFTER marriage, the context of this verse excludes adultery.

In 10:8, Paul is referring back to Numbers 25 where the Israelite men were having sex with Moabite women. They were not married to these women. In addition to idolatry, their sin was sex before marriage. The OT calls it "whoredom/harlotry" and the NT calls it "fornication".

And these verses mention Fornication but do nothing to define your application fo it to Teens and other young and old adults before they are married. What you do here is to add to the Word of God on direct violation of Duet. 4:2 and Rev. 22:19. (Intentional heresy except you cease it now, fall on your face and beg forgiveness.

Did you notice I did not end, leaving you hang above the fires of Hell?

 

[jocor]

But you said that you know we must obey the commandment not to commit Adultery and with any inclusion of the rest of scripture, the Gospel, the sole conclusion is Eternal Damnation without hope!

Of course we must obey it. Even Paul taught us not to commit adultery (Rom 13:9 and others). "Must" does not mean "Eternal Damnation" if we don't.

By the way, why are you abandoning your position and bringing in adultery, it is your professed position that I am a bit of a screwball for agreeing with Dianne that once coupled, they are, scripturally, married, have3 you begun to agree with us?

I did not bring up adultery in reference to the OP. I brought it up in reference to your statements:

"I do not assert all must obey the Letter of the Law, just the Spirit of the Law. Teaching the Letter makes the teaching Legalism."​

I brought up adultery to show you how false your statements above are. We cannot break the letter of the law of adultery. We can keep the Spirit of that law as well as the letter. Keeping the letter of "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is NOT "Legalism".

 

[jocor]

Please, I am restraining myself just short of binding my hands to keep from screaming what has been obvious from the time I joined this string. By this time, you asking this has set a large portion of the Christ Following Devotees to roaring with laughter at the real life Amos and Andy Comedy skit contained here in.

If you would just make plain statements or ask clear questions instead of trying to wax poetic or making personal attacks on me, we might make some progress.

And these verses mention Fornication but do nothing to define your application fo it to Teens and other young and old adults before they are married.

Paul's words are applicable to all age groups. ANY person that is at risk for having sexual relations before they are married, should get a wife so as not to commit fornication.

What you do here is to add to the Word of God on direct violation of Duet. 4:2 and Rev. 22:19. (Intentional heresy except you cease it now, fall on your face and beg forgiveness.

What words am I adding and why are you rebuking me the letter of the law of De 4:2? Are you becoming a legalist? What is the Spirit of that Law?

 

[jocor]

For those of you that believe that being joined together in sex makes you married, please address the following verses:

“If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered, then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days." (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NASB)
​

If the man does not pay the girl's father the money, she does NOT become his wife even though he had sex with her.

 

[jocor]

Here is a similar situation:

"If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife.
"If her father absolutely refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money equal to the dowry for virgins. (Ex 20:16-17 NASB)

The two have mutually consented sex, but the woman does NOT become his wife until the dowry is paid. Even if the man wants to pay the dowry, the father has the right to not give his daughter in marriage to the man. Sex does NOT make two people married.

 

[Warrior4Jesus]

In response to a lot of the posts and I won't call anyone specifically out because who am I to say who's right or not... But I ask where is God's heart? Is it in eternal hellfire and damnation? Where is grace love and mercy. If we go on and on and on nothing is accomplished. As christian's we all have a sense of what's right and wrong. Why keep beating each other up about it? to those that want to live under the law you should do what your supposed to do and break fellowship with those you feel you need to. And to those that understand Love, grace, and mercy. Give it freely to those who do not.

 

[jocor]

In response to a lot of the posts and I won't call anyone specifically out because who am I to say who's right or not... But I ask where is God's heart? Is it in eternal hellfire and damnation? Where is grace love and mercy. If we go on and on and on nothing is accomplished. As christian's we all have a sense of what's right and wrong. Why keep beating each other up about it? to those that want to live under the law you should do what your supposed to do and break fellowship with those you feel you need to. And to those that understand Love, grace, and mercy. Give it freely to those who do not.

Just so there is no misunderstanding, the law verses I quote are to establish the FACT that throughout OT times, marriage was not entered into through sex. The same is true under the New Covenant. If someone does sin by having sex before marriage (fornication) or even during marriage with someone other than one's spouse (adultery), there is forgiveness, not only from the Almighty, but there should be from the wronged spouse as well. That is how a New Covenant believer exercises grace, mercy and forgiveness. Divorcing one's spouse is not the answer. Neither is continuing to commit fornication acceptable simply because one thinks we have such freedom under the New Covenant.

For a law keeper to break fellowship with those he believes are in sinful relationships by committing fornication or adultery is not the answer. We are to restore such people in love and with a spirit of gentleness as Paul taught in Gal 6:1. However, there may come a time when such a person must be put out of the church as was done in 1 Cor 5.

 

[Warrior4Jesus]

I wasn't making a personal attack at you. I just was hoping to restore a focus of Love. I apologize if you took it as so.