Heaven Or Paradise?

[Michael74]

I will make new heavens and the new earth, which will last forever,” says the Lord. “In the same way, your names and your children will always be with me. All people will come to worship me every Sabbath and every New Moon,” says the Lord. Isaiah 66:22-23 NIV

 

[Michael74]

...why would god destroy the sun?

Science says that the sun will one day run out of fuel. This agrees with what the Bible says about the temporary nature of the sun.

He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment. Hebrews 1:10-11 NIV

 

[Michael74]

In the beginning you made the earth, and your hands made the skies. They will be destroyed, but you will remain. They will all wear out like clothes. And, like clothes, you will change them and throw them away. But you never change, and your life will never end. Psalm 102:25-27 NCV

 

[Kenny_ms]

Pretty convincing verses there, Michael.

 

[jasonc]

In the beginning you made the earth, and your hands made the skies. They will be destroyed, but you will remain. They will all wear out like clothes. And, like clothes, you will change them and throw them away. But you never change, and your life will never end. Psalm 102:25-27 NCV

Isiah says the new moon and sun will shall be forever before me it also says from one shabbat to another.
I guess this is the non shining sun.Isiah 66.mentions a new sun and moon.and Isreal being forever
never plucked from their land.

 

[jasonc]

Science says that the sun will one day run out of fuel. This agrees with what the Bible says about the temporary nature of the sun.

He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment. Hebrews 1:10-11 NIV

God created the sun to die.if so Adam was never meant to live forever.that's the curse.problem if the creation cries out for redemption of man.it wants to die?

 

[Michael74]

...but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” Genesis 2:17 NIV

Adam was only meant to live forever if he proved himself trustworthy by obeying God's command.

 

[jasonc]

If he never sinned. Would the curse of death have happened? The sun,moon.were made to burn out.that was all changed
I wonder what the Hebrew word for create is in Isiah.if it's barah then its your position but if not.

 

[Michael74]

Isaiah 66:22

כִּ֣י כַאֲשֶׁ֣ר הַשָּׁמַ֣יִם הַ֠חֳדָשִׁים וְהָאָ֨רֶץ הַחֲדָשָׁ֜ה אֲשֶׁ֨ר אֲנִ֥י עֹשֶׂ֛ה עֹמְדִ֥ים
לְפָנַ֖י נְאֻם־יְהוָ֑ה כֵּ֛ן יַעֲמֹ֥ד זַרְעֲכֶ֖ם וְשִׁמְכֶֽם׃

 

[Michael74]

The temporary nature of the sun suggests that the new earth may have always been the plan. Had Adam proven himself trustworthy by choosing the tree of life rather than the forbidden one.

 

[Stan1953]

Where did you get that from? I didn't say that, I said I have no good reason to believe otherwise. Not you, not anyone but "I have no reason". And no one said it was physical beyond any doubt, it just has not been proven to me it is spiritual. First look it over good and see how you twisted my post to say something it absolutely did not. Once one starts going down that road to prove their point, I generally understand it to mean they have no proof and at that point, I'm dealing with nothing more than attitude. I read no further than that and you can have the last word here if it helps, but I've seen enough to know, this is fruitless and I don't really want to see the thread pulled so.....

My point is I don't know what you are trying to assert, which is why I have questioned you a few times now about it.
You don't agree it's a spiritual place and don't agree it a physical place, so WHAT do YOU think it is? At this point, you seem very non-committal about it and disagree with every option you are given. I'd ask someone else to tell me if they know but then you would probably deny that. Matt 5:37 (NIV)

 

[jasonc]

Isaiah 66:22

כִּ֣י כַאֲשֶׁ֣ר הַשָּׁמַ֣יִם הַ֠חֳדָשִׁים וְהָאָ֨רֶץ הַחֲדָשָׁ֜ה אֲשֶׁ֨ר אֲנִ֥י עֹשֶׂ֛ה עֹמְדִ֥ים
לְפָנַ֖י נְאֻם־יְהוָ֑ה כֵּ֛ן יַעֲמֹ֥ד זַרְעֲכֶ֖ם וְשִׁמְכֶֽם׃

I don't speak nor read Hebrew.
however, I will look for you and whilst I do. things to consider the language of Hebrew allows some unusual uses for meanings that aren't well known to gentiles or non Hebrew speakers.

ie edom in the day of her destruction means if we are to take that mountain rolled up like a scroll literal , well edom has to come back to Jordan. then side against her just to be judge for something they already were judged. edom no longer exists. there is no mentioning of that destruction of the events in extrabiblical records.

 

[Stan1953]

the new sun wont shine? we can mark time by god? or the sun. why would god destroy the sun? you do know that the sea one word isn't what the ancient world saw as the oceans?

That IS the concept of NEW isn't it? Something that wasn't before. As to why, you can ask God when you see Him, because His written word doesn't tell us does it?

 

[jasonc]

That IS the concept of NEW isn't it? Something that wasn't before. As to why, you can ask God when you see Him, because His written word doesn't tell us does it?

well I guess you can wait until you are that new creature then. the bible does say at repentence we are a new creation.
what do we have that adam didn't have but lost?
oh adam had acess to god and prior to sin could look at him. we cant. yet it says new. new in all parts of the nt doesn't mean new
ie a new command I give unto thee. which is the first commandment of the torah(thou shall love the Lord)
jesus didn't just make that one up. the greek literaly rendered is start afresh this command.

 

[jasonc]

I don't see the fire being literal. shoot lightening is so hot and what does it do? cause the air near it to enter into the fourth state of matter briefly. so how can a literal oxygen base fire burn the sun?

 

[jasonc]

Create:
To create is to cause something to exist which did not exist before, as distinguished from make, to re‐form something already in existence.
from smith's bible dictionary
that is from a concordance. that is what I see happening with creation. not necessarily a destruction but a reforming.i cant find a Hebrew dictionary. im looking for one word that means to make from nothing. which is barah. in that verse.

 

[Stan1953]

well I guess you can wait until you are that new creature then. the bible does say at repentence we are a new creation.
what do we have that adam didn't have but lost?
oh adam had acess to god and prior to sin could look at him. we cant. yet it says new. new in all parts of the nt doesn't mean new
ie a new command I give unto thee. which is the first commandment of the torah(thou shall love the Lord)
jesus didn't just make that one up. the greek literaly rendered is start afresh this command.

Actually what is SAYS is;

Therefore hōste if ei anyone etis is in en Christ Christos, there is a new kainos creation ktisis; what ho is old archaios has passed parerchomai away; behold idou, what is new kainos has come ginomai​

The italics are Greek. you can find it here; https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2 Corinthians 5:17&version=MOUNCE
We are part of the NEW covenant when we become saved, which Paul here calls the new creation.

 

[Michael74]

I don't speak nor read Hebrew.
however...

Oh, sorry. Isaiah 66:22 does use a different word than Genesis 1:1. ‘ōśeh עֹשֶׂ֛ה instead of bārā בָּרָ֣א

Genesis 1:11 uses ‘ōśeh to describe the Lord telling trees to bring forth fruit.

I guess a case could be made that using a different word denotes that some different process is involved than in Genesis 1:1

 

[iLOVE]

Question: "What is paradise? Is it different than Heaven?"

Answer: Paradise is a place of blessing where the righteous go after death. The word paradise is usually used as a synonym for “heaven” (Revelation 2:7).

When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used “paradise” as a synonym for “heaven.” The apostle Paul wrote of someone (probably himself) who “was caught up to paradise” (2 Corinthians 12:4). In this context, paradise obviously refers to heaven.

There has always been a separation of believers and unbelievers after death (Luke 16:19-31). The righteous have always gone to paradise; the wicked have always gone to hell. For right now, both paradise and hell are “temporary holding places” until the day when Jesus Christ comes back to judge the world based on whether or not individuals have believed in Him. The first resurrection is of believers who will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ to receive rewards based on meritorious service to Him. The second resurrection will be that of unbelievers who will stand before the Great White Throne Judgment of God. At that point, all will be sent to their eternal destination—the wicked to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15), and the righteous to a new heaven and a new earth (Revelation 21—22).

There are cases in which paradise can refer to the Garden of Eden, such in the Douay-Rheims translation of Genesis 3:8, which speaks of Adam and Eve hiding “amidst the trees of paradise.” The context of the word will determine whether it refers to heaven or Eden.


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/paradise.html#ixzz3d2SuPmum

Question: "Where did Old Testament believers/saints go when they died?"

Answer: The Old Testament believers went to a place of comfort and rest called “paradise” when they died. The Old Testament taught life after death and that everyone who departed from this life went to a place of conscious existence. The general term for this place was Sheol, which could be translated “the grave” or “the realm of the dead.” The wicked were there (Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14; Isaiah 5:14), and so were the righteous (Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13; Psalm 6:5; 16:10; 88:3; Isaiah 38:10).

The New Testament equivalent of Sheol is Hades. Luke 16:19–31 shows that, prior to Christ’s resurrection, Hades was divided into two realms: a place of comfort where Lazarus was (Abraham’s bosom or Abraham’s side) and a place of torment where the rich man was (hell). Lazarus’s place of comfort is elsewhere called “paradise” (Luke 23:43). The place of torment is called “Gehenna” in the Greek in Mark 9:45. Between paradise and hell (the two districts of Hades) there was “a great chasm” (Luke 16:26). The fact that no one could cross this chasm indicates that, after death, one’s fate is sealed.

Today, when an unbeliever dies, he follows the Old Testament unbelievers to the torment side of Hades. At the final judgment, Hades will be emptied before the Great White Throne, where its occupants will be judged prior to entering the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13–15).

On the other hand, when a believer dies today, he is “present with the Lord” in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:6–9). There, he joins the Old Testament saints who have been enjoying their reward for thousands of years.


Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/Old-Testament-believers.html#ixzz3dCMvQsbz

 

[The_Epsicle]

This thread is so far away from the topic and since I tried to bring it back once, so I'm not going to bother doing that again...

If anyone is wanting to talk about the original topic check out classik's thread "would we also labour in heaven?" that was close to what we were talking about before this train veered of the tracks, turned into a moped, and took a dive into the Mariana Trench.... Carry on, you have my blessing.