Bible Study Hebrews 6:4-6

[Lewis]

These Scriptures has always scared people, and just plain made them worry a lot. These passages are some of the hardest to deal with in the Bible. The word impossible in verse 4 can scare the daylights out of some people. And verse 6 saying that you cannot be renewed, scares people.

Hebrews 6 (King James Version)

4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

 

[handy]

These verses do act as a reminder that we cannot ever take God's grace for granted. I believe that they show that salvation is at once both an immediate gift, yet a process as well. And, for those who are like the seed of the rocky soil, who do recieve and believe, but fall away.

HOWEVER!!!!!: one needs to remember that all these verses which speak to those who are in danger of falling away, also have texts of encouragment right on their heels.

Putting Hebrews 6:4-6 in context and we see that the context is the continued growth and maturity of the Christian. 5:12-14 shows us that the writer is concerned that the Hebrews to whom he is writing are not maturing onwards to the 'solid food' that through practice have their senses trained to discernment. The writer also mentions that prime example of all healthy Christians, their fruit. (6:7-8)

I believe the concerns and the warnings that the writer is sharing here shows a real danger to all who both recieve and believe. Our recieving and believing is nothing, if it does not result in, as Jesus put it, 'bear fruit with perserverance'. (Luke 8:15) But, I also believe, from the very depths of my soul, that the exhortations and warnings that are provided are part of God's grace to insure that all that He calls will be 'presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy." (Jude 24)

The mistake for anyone shaken by the text you shared Lewis, is to never stop at verse 6. Pause, yes, and consider and meditate, but then read on. For then we see that the writer has this to say:

But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. For God is not unjust so as to forget your workand the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who throught faith and patience inherit the promises. (6:9-12)

Personally, I used to believe that one could never lose one's salvation, that eternal life was ours from the moment we recieved and believe. But, a careful and objective reading of the parable of the seeds shows this isn't the case. However, since Jesus is both the Author and Perfector of our faith, we can be assured that as long as we continue to desire to minister, we will inherit the promises.

If one loses that desire, and reach the point that one no longer believes, then I fear greatly for such a one.


And now, 50,000 people wil jump in here to say how wrong I'm am, and why I'm full of beans. :wink:

 

[follower of Christ]

I take those warnings very seriously myself.
However, I do not believe one can simply 'lose' ones salvation.
I 'lose' my car keys..'losing' something infers that it was against my will...that its not something i wanted to happen....wilful apostasy, as the Hebrews were committing because of persecution, is a completely different matter.

Scripture is absolutely correct when it shows all of those things that cannot take us out of His hand.
It is only thru our own rejection of Him by purposefully returning to the life of sin that He saved us from that apostasy can come about.
Now, whether that calls for something like speaking against the Spirit or not to accomplish, Im not entirely sure.
One thing that does tend to back that idea is that Jesus teaches that speaking against the Spirit will never be forgiven....and in Acts we see that Paul, as Saul the terrible, 'compelled' our brethren to blaspheme.

So 'falling away' as the Hebrews were that the writer is speaking to, may actually also include a blasphemy of sorts as a final act of rejection agaisnt the blood that sanctified and the Spirit of Grace...

Ive often wondered if that sort of thing wont also be included when the mark of the beast is brought about.
If there is only one single unforgivable sin, it might be that, like Saul was compelling, that blasphemy of the Spirit is also involved to seal the fate of those who take the mark....of course, this is merely hypothesis...my own ponderings.

One thing I do not believe is that anyone can 'accidently' fall away.
I believe when we do something to cause this state that it isnt something we do without complete knowledge that we are doing so.
I dont think anyone will wake up one day and realize they gave up their position without having known very clearly that they were doing so...

 

[follower of Christ]

The mistake for anyone shaken by the text you shared Lewis, is to never stop at verse 6. Pause, yes, and consider and meditate, but then read on. For then we see that the writer has this to say:

But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. For God is not unjust so as to forget your workand the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who throught faith and patience inherit the promises. (6:9-12)

Amen !

Far too many times Ive seen folks trying to dismiss Hebrews 6 and 10 altogether instead of trying to understand that the warnings ARE very much warnings....but the whole of the message is encouragement to keep moving forward.
Instead of trying to fight against the warnings to say they arent actually there, we need instead to use them as the writer did to exhort the brethren into perseverance.

 

[handy]

Just to clarify, I used the term "lose salvation" simply because that is the common vernacular.

Naturally I don't believe that someone can misplace their salvation like one can misplace one's car keys. Thanks for going deeper, Follower. It's a deep subject, and worthy of in-depth study.

 

[Guest]

It is also important to understand WHO these verses are being written to.
.

 

[Guest]

Moved this Topic to the Bible Study Forum.

 

[handy]

Scott, I would like to see you elaborate on the WHO part.

Unlike Paul's epistles, the writer of Hebrews neither identifies himself/herself or identifies a specific church the letter is written to. I think this has led some to believe that Hebrews isn't necessarily for Christians, or somehow are for "Jewish Christians", the implication being that they are under a different type of grace that the rest of us. I believe the Jewish Christian part, only it's important to keep in mind that most of the early church converts did convert from Judaism. With a few exceptions, we can pretty much assume that the converts from the time Jesus preached through to Acts 10:34, were all Jewish. So, although the recipients of this espistle were Jewish Christians, it doesn't mean that the information in the espistle is any less applicable to any Christian from any background that struggles with keeping the faith.

This is from my study Bible, and it speaks of the original recipients of the letter better than I can"

Hebrews offers a fair amount of information about the original recipients and their situation, while leaving questions of date and destination without certain answers. The orginal readers spoke Greek and used the Greek translation of the Old Testament. They could follow arguments drawn from the Old Testament and were interested in the Old Testament sanctuary, sacrificial system, and priesthood. They had not heard the gospel directly from Jesus, but from apostles (2:3), had faced previous persecution, including expulsion from Jewish institutions (13:12,23). They were in danger of falling away, perhaps fearing death (2:14-18), although their faith had not yet led to martyrdom (12:4). In addition, they may have been undergoing a transistion in church leadership (13:7,17), and were therefore concerned about security and permanence (6:19; 11:10; 13:8,14). Finally, they recieve greeting through the author from "those from Italy" (13:24)
Drawing these features toghether, we conclude that the recipients were Jewish Christians of the Dispersion (the scattering of Jews outside of Palestine), probably in Italy.
quoted from the New Geneva Study Bible

 

[follower of Christ]

It is also important to understand WHO these verses are being written to.
.

WHO were Hebrews who were very clearly Hebrew believers and followers of Jesus Christ, the risen Messiah.

So it doesnt alter the fact that it is New Covenant believers that are being warned to not fall away as some try to teach...it doesnt only apply to Jews or those folks at that time....otherwise where does that type of thought end ?

I just got done with a debate on another forum where WHO was used to say that Hebrews doesnt apply to the church at all but was during that 'dispensation' and not the one we gentiles are now living in. This is completely unscriptural.
Hebrews is simply written to the New Covenant CHURCH of Jesus Christ who just happened to be Jews. Just as Romans was written largely to non Jews.
Each letter is written from a perspective that the intended audience would familiarize with, but it doesnt negate anything in either writing as applying to EVERY believer where it is applicable.

 

[follower of Christ]

Absolutely.
Ive seen arguments for TWO gospels....multiple 'dispensations' and the like...all in an attempt to remove Hebrews from the equation and my guess is to get rid of the warnings.
But we know that warnings about apostasy are all thru the scriptures, not just one letter we call Hebrews.
The Hebrews seem to have gotten the more direct warning because obviously it all started with them and since most of Isreal had rejected their Messiah, there was a lot of persecution and such against any Hebrew who was turning from Judaism to follow Christ. Evidently, from the evidence we see, there must have been quite a few Hebrews in the church who were then 'shrinking back' away from Christ and back into Judaism (ie 'apostasy').

Its quite sad to see the perversions done to the texts of the scriptures to do away with CLEAR and consistant warnings about apostasy.

Scott, I would like to see you elaborate on the WHO part.

Unlike Paul's epistles, the writer of Hebrews neither identifies himself/herself or identifies a specific church the letter is written to. I think this has led some to believe that Hebrews isn't necessarily for Christians, or somehow are for "Jewish Christians", the implication being that they are under a different type of grace that the rest of us. I believe the Jewish Christian part, only it's important to keep in mind that most of the early church converts did convert from Judaism. With a few exceptions, we can pretty much assume that the converts from the time Jesus preached through to Acts 10:34, were all Jewish. So, although the recipients of this espistle were Jewish Christians, it doesn't mean that the information in the espistle is any less applicable to any Christian from any background that struggles with keeping the faith.

 

[Guest]

How about before declaring my question a perversion, you wait until I provide my answer?

 

[handy]

Looking forward to your answer then Scott, although I didn't necessarily think the Follower declared your question a perversion (how can any question be a perversion), but rather some of the twists that some put on the book of Hebrews. I've seen some of those same 'twists' myself, and also think of them as perversions of the clear teaching of the Spirit.

 

[follower of Christ]

How about before declaring my question a perversion, you wait until I provide my answer?

how about you make sure Im refering to YOU and YOUR comments before you jump the gun and assume someone is speaking about you?

it was a general statement and should have been taken as such unless I specified that I WAS indeed refering TO you and what you have said...which at the point I responded wasnt yet enough to go on as far as knowing what you were trying to assert....

I just went back to check and my comment about perversions wasnt even in any response I even made to you at all...it was to another poster altogether and wasnt directed in any way towards your posts or comments.
You had to have 'assumed' something instead of simply ASKING me what I meant...

 

[follower of Christ]

Looking forward to your answer then Scott, although I didn't necessarily think the Follower declared your question a perversion (how can any question be a perversion), but rather some of the twists that some put on the book of Hebrews. I've seen some of those same 'twists' myself, and also think of them as perversions of the clear teaching of the Spirit.

Exactly. It was a general statement based on years of dialogue with MANY people...not just one person on THIS forum...

One thing that aggitates me to no end on forums like this is everyone is so quick to play wounded or attacked because they do just what they accuse others of...reading too much into someone elses statments.
Its enough to make a person just not speak to anyone, quite frankly...

 

[follower of Christ]

I've seen some of those same 'twists' myself, and also think of them as perversions of the clear teaching of the Spirit.

On that line of thinking, yes, I would call it a 'perversion' of the texts to try to somehow dismiss Hebrews or the warngings altogether (as some do claiming its for ONLY those Jewish believers). There isnt a single thing in the text that Ive seen that would convince me that Hebrews isnt simply a letter written to NT followers of Jesus Christ who ARE part of the same 'church' that we today are having become 'one new man' along with the believing gentiles under ONE new covenant ratified on the Cross by the death of Jesus Christ.

Ive seen so many twists put on it all to try to remove those warnings that one has to wonder if that isnt the sole purpose with many of these doctrines.

Yes, I do consider these teachings a 'perversion/distortion' of the texts because the warnings are clear and very consistant. There isnt any way around them as a whole except to try to dismiss them in some fashion or another.

ONE covenant given to ONE new man consisting of both Jews and gentiles who believe in Jesus Christ and are under His ONE covenant given to His church.

Eph 2:11-22 EMTV Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made by hands in the flesh-- (12) that at that time you were apart from Christ, being estranged from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, not having hope and atheists in the world. (13)

But now in Christ Jesus, you who once were far away have come to be near by the blood of Christ. (14) For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and who destroyed the dividing wall of separation, (15) having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, (16) and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, putting to death the enmity in Himself. (17)

And having come, He preached peace to you who were far away and to those near. (18) Because through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. (19) So then, you are no longer strangers and aliens, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, (20) being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, (21) in whom the whole building, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, (22) in whom you also are being built together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

If we have been made 'one new man' and are together being built into a 'temple' in the Lord, then it pretty much destroys that those Hebrews in the letter to the Hebrews are in some other 'covenant' or under some other scenarion while still being under Christ.

He is our cornerstone...BOTH believing Jews and gentiles and has given ONE covenant to us...there is no other.

 

[Guest]

Yes. Hebrews as a whole is written to Christians. In fact, I would argue that the Bible itself is written to Christians - not to unbelievers, although the Holy Spirit uses it to convict unbelievers of their unbelief.

However, in regards to the passage from Hebrews 6 - keep the whole passage in context. I would suggest that verse 9 is key. Specifically the "but".

I would suggest that the verses quoted here are referring to people that have HEARED the Gospel, have SEEN the Gospel in action, but have rejected it. What more is there for them? What more can be done?

 

[follower of Christ]

Yes. Hebrews as a whole is written to Christians. In fact, I would argue that the Bible itself is written to Christians - not to unbelievers, although the Holy Spirit uses it to convict unbelievers of their unbelief.

However, in regards to the passage from Hebrews 6 - keep the whole passage in context. I would suggest that verse 9 is key. Specifically the "but".

I would suggest that the verses quoted here are referring to people that have HEARED the Gospel, have SEEN the Gospel in action, but have rejected it. What more is there for them? What more can be done?

I agree, it is absolutely key in that the entire passage is an exhortation to 'better' than the apostasy that the writer is warning about.

The problem is, and you may not go so far as this, so dont assume Im saying you do...but there are many who take that particular verse and cause it to 'negate' the warnings altogether.

So I dont jump ahead of myself, can you clarify if you are one of those who do or not so there is no confusion in this thread later on?

What they do is say that the whole passage is hypothetical and not really a genuine warning at all.
In that case the warning would be a falsehood...a lie...a warning against falling away that would be an impossibility to begin with.
Do we actually see any evidence for God dealing so shady anywhere else in scripture with His children who love Him ?

Warnings that arent really warnings are basically lies, nothing more.

Again, this isnt assuming that YOU believe anything in particular....only presenting what Ive crossed from folks all over the net...

 

[follower of Christ]

I would suggest that the verses quoted here are referring to people that have HEARED the Gospel, have SEEN the Gospel in action, but have rejected it. What more is there for them? What more can be done?

There is a problem with that theory.

Firstly it negates the warning that is given to REAL believers and followers of Christ.
Why warn REAL brethren against falling away *IF* the warnings are only to those who never really were part of the church to begin with?

At that point we'd be dealing with two entirely different groups...those who DO believe and are born again and those who ARENT born again but seemingly are either faking it or not even going that far.

WHY give warning to TRUE believing Hebrews over the NONbelievers supposedly 'falling away' (which in and of itself is quite an oxymoron....how does one 'fall away' from something one never really had to begin with? )

There would be no logic whatsoever in warning TRUE believers/followers against falling away being done by those were not TRUE believers/followers since the two are completely incomparable.

ONLY IF the falling away was being committed by those who had TRULY come to Christ do the warnings TO TRUE believers in the Hebrew church make any sense or even remotely logical or consistant...

The evidence in Hebrews 6 and 10 show FAR MORE than folks who had merely seen and heard. These are people who HAD been sanctified by the blood of the covenant and were partakers of the Holy Spirit Himself.....those who could not REcrucify Christ....who could not be RENEWED to repentance.....all these things MUST have been in order for them to have fallen away from them.

As I said before, the passages are an exhortation to NOT fall away as many Hebrews were obviously doing..

Heb 10:38-39 Now, "the Just shall live by faith. But if he draws back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him." (39) But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of those who believe to the preserving of the soul.

 

[Guest]

Are there not TWO groups inside your church today?

Those who believe and those who do not?

 

[follower of Christ]

Are there not TWO groups inside your church today?

Those who believe and those who do not?

Of course there are.
And it would ILLOGICAL for me to warn those who do NOT believe to begin with to not fall away.

Ill say again that if one believes as you seem to be presenting, then it amounts to issuing FALSE warnings to TRUE believers over the actions of NONbelievers.

So I work for a company and one day we have guests come in who dont actually work there.
They may look like me and dress like me but that doesnt make them employees of my company....and warning the visitors who ARENT employees to not get themselves fired would be quite meaningless.

Now if some of my co-employees had been walking off the job and being fired for it, then my manager can speak to me and LEGITIMATELY warn me not to do the same as those folks did.

THAT is pretty much what is happening in Hebrews.
Warnings that are FALSE warnings arent warnings at all....they are lies, plain and simple.

The Hebrew writer would have had to been fairly inept/incompetant to tell BELIEVERs not to do something IMPOSSIBLE for them to do...