Bible Study Hebrews 6:4-6

[Guest]

Are there not TWO groups inside your church today?

Those who believe and those who do not?

Of course there are.
And it would ILLOGICAL for me to warn those who do NOT believe to begin with to not fall away.

Ill say again that if one believes as you seem to be presenting, then it amounts to issuing FALSE warnings to TRUE believers over the actions of NONbelievers.

So I work for a company and one day we have guests come in who dont actually work there.
They may look like me and dress like me but that doesnt make them employees of my company....and warning the visitors who ARENT employees to not get themselves fired would be quite meaningless.

Now if some of my co-employees had been walking off the job and being fired for it, then my manager can speak to me and LEGITIMATELY warn me not to do the same as those folks did.

THAT is pretty much what is happening in Hebrews.
Warnings that are FALSE warnings arent warnings at all....they are lies, plain and simple.

The Hebrew writer would have had to been fairly inept/incompetant to tell BELIEVERs not to do something IMPOSSIBLE for them to do...

Your coming to the text with the notion that they are warnings of "falling away". As I explained, I do not see the text warning believers of "falling away" - but rather to those that have heard but rejected. It is warning them that there is nothing more. There is no other way - you have heard it, you have seen it, now you need to believe it because there will be a time when there is no other option, it will be to late to then believe.

 

[follower of Christ]

Your coming to the text with the notion that they are warnings of "falling away".

:crazyeyes:
Uh...Im coming to the text READING THAT they are warning of 'falling away'.
IF you dismiss that fact then it is YOU who is altering scripture, Im afraid.

As I explained, I do not see the text warning believers of "falling away" - but rather to those that have heard but rejected.

And you are free to believe whatever you wish to believe. That doesnt make it any more true than when those folks who reject the CLEAR meaning of 'fall away' over at TOL that I just debated over this very thing.

It doesnt matter that you dont 'see' 'fall away' in the text....it is there in blinding colors for those who wish to accept it.

Heb 6:5-6 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the world to come, (6) and who have fallen away; it is impossible, I say, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify the Son of God afresh to themselves and put Him to an open shame.

It is warning them that there is nothing more.

Hebrews is WRITTEN, as you yourself have shown, TO BELIEVERS !
The writer would be quite incompetant to present to BELIEVERS that they shouldnt head this route *IF* it is not possible to do so.
Are you claiming that the writer is writing TO UNbelievers or something ?

There is no other way - you have heard it, you have seen it, now you need to believe it because there will be a time when there is no other option, it will be to late to then believe.

Sorry but that isnt what Hebrews 6 and 10 show at all.
The writer is SPEAKING TO true believers about something that is VERY possible for them to do..otherwise it is FALSE...a lie.
His description is very clearly one of not 'shrinking back to destruction'.

Hebrews 10 hits on the very same topic again exhorting the brethren there to not fall away because of persecution, as some were.

Heb 10:25-30 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. (26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, (27) but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (28) He who despised Moses' Law died without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses. (29)
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy of punishment, the one who has trampled the Son of God, and who has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? (30) For we know Him who has said, "Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, says the Lord." And again, "The Lord shall judge His people."


Heb 10:32-34 But call to memory the former days, in which (after you were illuminated) you endured a great fight of afflictions, (33) indeed being exposed both by reproaches and afflictions, and while you became companions of those who lived so. (34) For you both sympathized with my bonds and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in Heaven a better and an enduring substance.

Heb 10:35-39 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great recompense of reward. (36) For you have need of patience, so that after you have done the will of God you might receive the promise. (37) For "yet a little while, and He who shall come will come and will not delay." (38) Now, "the Just shall live by faith. But if he draws back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him." (39) But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of those who believe to the preserving of the soul.

VERY clearly this is speaking to those who were already PAST mere illumination

 

[follower of Christ]

aLoneVoice, Im going to have to simply let this one alone.
The reason I came by here was because I just spent the better part of a week on this very topic at another forum ..oddly enough one thread was probably titled the same as this one.

Im not interested in spending another week trying to convince you that CLEAR warning are warnings...choose what you wish to believe as Ive no intent in trying to change your mind.

For you readers...take a look at Hebrews chapter 6 and chapter 10. ...not just a verse here and there but read the whole chapter and maybe even the preceeding chapters as well.
What you will see is exhortation TO BELIEVERS to persevere in the faith and to not 'shrink back' as 'some' were doing, quite apparently.
Ive presented my case that it is complete incompetance for the writer to give warning TO BELIEVERS about falling away if it were impossible to do as much. That some reject the CLEAR intent of those warnings...possibly trying to alter them into something entirely different, does not make them any less true or change their intent.

 

[follower of Christ]

For you readers,

check out this passage in Hebrews 10 as a whole and see if it doesnt sound like an exhortation to not fall away from the faith...and very clearly lay out the repurcussions of such an act...

right from the start the writer exhorts to 'HOLD FAST' without wavering....that surely sets the tone here

Heb 10:23-39 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering (for He is faithful who promised), (24) and let us consider one another to provoke to love and to good works, (25) not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching. (26)

For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, (27) but a certain fearful looking for judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. (28)

He who despised Moses' Law died without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses. (29)
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy of punishment, the one who has trampled the Son of God, and who has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? (30)

For we know Him who has said, "Vengeance belongs to Me, I will repay, says the Lord." And again, "The Lord shall judge His people." (31) It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (32)

But call to memory the former days, in which (after you were illuminated) you endured a great fight of afflictions, (33) indeed being exposed both by reproaches and afflictions, and while you became companions of those who lived so. (34) For you both sympathized with my bonds and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that you have in Heaven a better and an enduring substance. (35)

Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great recompense of reward. (36) For you have need of patience, so that after you have done the will of God you might receive the promise. (37) For "yet a little while, and He who shall come will come and will not delay." (38) Now, "the Just shall live by faith. But if he draws back, My soul shall have no pleasure in him." (39) But we are not of those withdrawing to destruction, but of those who believe to the preserving of the soul.

Hebrews 6 tells the very same story....
(My personal guess is that there is a chapter break here that is poorly placed. Read the last few verses of Hebrews 5 and see how 6:1-3 seem to fit better there than here. Remember those verse and chapter breaks were added many many centuries later and do not belong in the texts)

Here we see the exact same exhortation to better things, and a stern warning for those who do apostate..

Heb 6:4-9 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, (6) If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (7) For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: (8) But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. (9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Two times this thought is given.
What happens to a man who HAS come to Christ and HAS been born of the Spirit of the living God who then later rejects that Spirit wilfully ?

 

[follower of Christ]

again to the readers.
The Hebrews writer says this...

Therefore do not cast away your confidence,

Now WHO is He speaking to there?
Is it unbelievers or believers?
If it is UNbelievers...what exactly are they 'casting away' ?...unbelievers have no confidence to cast away....nor do 'make' believers.

Scriptures are written TO believers.
This statement...

Therefore do not cast away your confidence,

Can ONLY be meant FOR believers.

So the question is, is the writer lying or exaggerating there?
Is he exaggerating the possibilities for shock value?
Has the writer explained clearly what happens to those who DO cast away this confidence in these two chapters?

*IF* that is written to those who REJECTED the faith, as some might have you believe, what sense does the statement make about casting away their confidence?
If they have the confidence then doesnt this show that they DIDNT reject it but now have it?

The statement ONLY works if it is given TO TRUE BELIEVERS, as we already have agreed that scripture IS written to.
So it is BELEIEVERS being warned about not 'casting away' their confidence....and the texts shows VERY vividly what happens when one does....

 

[handy]

Follower, I think you did a great job in presenting why (I believe) the warnings are for actual believers and not just folks who have heard, but rejected the gospel. I want to expand on your work here a bit, in two ways.

The first way is anecdotal. Now, anecdotal evidence isn't usually the best evidence to give in Bible Study, because people's experiences don't necessarily confirm or deny biblical truth. However, the writer of this passage uses this term:

For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again in repentence.

This term "impossible to renew them again" is pretty key. If the writer has it correct, we should not have even one testimony of someone who 'played church' for years and years, only to out and out reject the gospel, and then, after the rejection, recieve the gospel and show the evidence of a changed heart by showing forth fruit. There cannot be even one such testimony.

However, I've personally known several who have such testimonies. These testimonies are by folks who were basically raised in church, 'went through the motions' so to speak, then (usually in their teen years or early adulthood) go on to totally reject Christianity, only to return and repent and show the truth of their repentence by growing in grace and giving God the glory for it.

In other words, the senario that the writer describes, that of the impossiblity of faux believers, of tares, if you will, ultimately coming to repentance, isn't truthful. I can name names. One such person is a person I know who was actually the head pastor of the church he grew up in, when he realized that he wasn't even a Christian, and that he had been 'playing church' all this time, while inwardly rejecting the gospel.

However, anecdotal evidence is always suspect, I'll admit. Maybe even my preacher friend still isn't truly saved, or maybe he hadn't truly rejected the Spirit before, even though he testifies fully that he had.

So, better still to let Scripture interpret Scripture, and see if the idea of someone who has recieved and believed the word of God can fall away is taught elsewhere in the Word.

Follower has, I think, gave a very credible comparison of the warnings in both Hebrews 6 and 10. Comparing the language of the two chapters we see that this dire warning is to those who:

* have been enlightened
* have tasted of the heavenly gift
* have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit (and how is an unbeliever ever a partaker of the Holy Spirit!?!)
* have tasted the good word
* have tasted the powers of the age to come
* have recieved the knowledge of the truth

Of of the qualities that descibe the person to whom this warning is written, the most compelling are the fact that it is to those who have both recieved the knowledge of the truth and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit. For years I was a member of a Calvinist church who comes down strong on the side of there being no way a believer can ever 'fall away', and never once did I ever hear a convincing arguement as to how someone can be a reciever of the word and a partaker of the Holy Spirit, and yet not be a Christian.

Let's also compare what Christ said again here, because I think it's an important point and I don't want it to get lost. Our Lord then taught that the meaning of His parable about the seeds was this:

And those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away. (Luke 8:13)

Now, this is the seed that did grow. According to Matthew, Mark and Luke, a plant did spring from this seed. But, the plant died, it withered. And in the explanation to the disciples regarding this 'seed' it represents someone who does recieve the word, and receieve it with joy, they do believe, they are believers. But, their belief isn't firmly rooted, and when trials come, they 'fall away'.

There is also the writings of Paul, who wrote also to those who faced the same temptation that the recipients of the epistle to the Hebrews faced, namely to return to the Law of Moses for salvation. Paul told those who followed through on that temptation and turned back to circumcision that "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace."(Galatians 5:4)
Now, the key phrase here is that they have been 'severed from Christ'. How can one be severed from someone, if one has not been bound to that person?

I could write more, but it's late, and I think I'll get back to bed now. (My little boy woke me up at 3:00 am having an asthma attack. He's fine now, and sound asleep, but I've been wide awake. :o )

I think there is enough to ponder over here though. We have the writer of Hebrews, Paul and even Jesus, all in agreement, teaching that some who recieve, believe, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, have evidence of a new life within them (the seed did grow), are bound to Christ, can yet still fall away.

 

[Guest]

So - are you suggesting that they can not be 'renewed' once they have 'fallen away'?

 

[handy]

Still up! :o

So - are you suggesting that they can not be 'renewed' once they have 'fallen away'?

I would say rather that the writer of Hebrews is the one doing the suggesting.

 

[Guest]

Still up! :o

So - are you suggesting that they can not be 'renewed' once they have 'fallen away'?

I would say rather that the writer of Hebrews is the one doing the suggesting.

So - once someone has believed and back-slid there is no more hope for them? And what point has someone 'fallen away'?

At what point is there no more hope for them?

 

[handy]

I don't know that anyone other than God, and possibly the person in question can answer that question.

We probably all know of back-sliders who repented and were restored by God. My own parents are good examples; they didn't live for Christ for years, but then were restored.

We also know that simply denying Christ during a time of testing isn't automatically a 'fall from grace'. Witness Peter and his denial, three times, of Christ.

But, I don't think we can just assume that this warning found Hebrews, and able to be confirmed by studying other texts, isn't a 'real' warning to those that believe. I don't think that God plays mind games with us, nor does He threaten, just to scare without any real intention of ever following through on the threat.

There are unbelievers who, even when they desire to repent, are denied. Esau is the prime example of this, and Pharaoh also comes to mind. But, as Esau is described as being hated by God even prior to his birth, and Pharaoh lived and died a pagan, it's hard to think of a passage such as Hebrews 6:4-6 being applicable to them. You cannot 'fall away' from something you were never a part of. Or, as in the example of Galatians 5, you cannot be 'severed' from Christ, unless you were at one time bound to Him.

 

[Guest]

I don't know that anyone other than God, and possibly the person in question can answer that question.

We probably all know of back-sliders who repented and were restored by God. My own parents are good examples; they didn't live for Christ for years, but then were restored.

We also know that simply denying Christ during a time of testing isn't automatically a 'fall from grace'. Witness Peter and his denial, three times, of Christ.

But, I don't think we can just assume that this warning found Hebrews, and able to be confirmed by studying other texts, isn't a 'real' warning to those that believe. I don't think that God plays mind games with us, nor does He threaten, just to scare without any real intention of ever following through on the threat.

There are unbelievers who, even when they desire to repent, are denied. Esau is the prime example of this, and Pharaoh also comes to mind. But, as Esau is described as being hated by God even prior to his birth, and Pharaoh lived and died a pagan, it's hard to think of a passage such as Hebrews 6:4-6 being applicable to them. You cannot 'fall away' from something you were never a part of. Or, as in the example of Galatians 5, you cannot be 'severed' from Christ, unless you were at one time bound to Him.

So, what I am reading and please correct me if I am wrong - is that the warning in Hebrews is directed at Born-Again believers. Warning them not to 'fall away', but providing no benchmark as to when that might happen.

That would be like warning someone about a cliff, after they have already fallen off the cliff.

If I want to warn someone about no 'falling away' - would I not also want to tell them at what point it would be considedered 'fallen away'? Paul refers to himself in the present tense as a 'chief sinner'. Is anyone suggesting that Paul had 'fallen away'?

I am not suggesting that this test isn't a real warning - the question is - who is the warning directed towards?

In most churches there are "members" who look the part, play the part, and can act the part and there are members who are saved. The pastor still needs to bring salvation messages, but that doesn't mean the message is directed at those who are saved that they need to be 'saved again'.

 

[handy]

Scott, I'm going to disagree with you for (at least) two reasons. Not just to be disagreeable, but hopefully to get at the bottom of this. If there comes a point in which you can provide solid evidence that Follower and I have read these verses wrong, then believe me, my mind is open to change on this subject. After all, I used to believe pretty much as you do, about these texts, but the evidence of Scripture just doesn't confirm the interpretation.

First, forgive me, but I think you are trading the clear for the obscure. Just because the writer doesn't include a set 'event' as to when a believer may cross the line of no return, doesn't negate all that powerful evidence that Follower, myself and others have provided to show that these verses are directed at believers. By allowing Scripture to interpret Scripture, it's clear that not only is the idea of falling away taught here, it is taught elsewhere in the Bible as well. And, I didn't exhaust the list of texts that speak to falling away by any means. There's Paul's concern for himself that he be disciplined so that, after preaching to others, he not be disqualified. There are any number of other verses that exhort us to perservere. All these texts, when taken at their face value, are most logically interpreted that we are warned to perservere and not fall away.
So, even though there is no bench-mark to say when we might 'fall off the cliff', the fact that the writer is telling us that it's possible to 'fall off cliffs' is clear.

You said:

If I want to warn someone about no 'falling away' - would I not also want to tell them at what point it would be considedered 'fallen away'? Paul refers to himself in the present tense as a 'chief sinner'. Is anyone suggesting that Paul had 'fallen away'?

No one is suggesting that Paul had fallen away. Paul was always honest about his struggle against the flesh, witness his deeply personal account of struggling with the flesh in Romans, and, as I just mentioned, shared his own concern that he be diligent lest he 'be disqualified'.


Well, I have been interrupted in my discourse here, so I won't go into my second point now. I really have more to say, but I gotta go, and wont be able to come back on-line until at least tonight, if not tomorrow morning. But, there is a lot to cover here, and perhaps it's best to see your response to my first point before going on anyway. Key is the fact that I think that Hebrews 6, as well as the other texts does show us that it is indeed possible for born-again believers to fall off the cliff. I know that many of the OSAS camp will deny any such impossibility. But, that it is impossible for born-again believers to fall away, I don't think is taught. If it was truly impossible for a born-again believer to fall away, then why doesn't the Bible just come right out and say so?

 

[follower of Christ]

So - once someone has believed and back-slid there is no more hope for them? And what point has someone 'fallen away'?

At what point is there no more hope for them?

Look at the text itself...it doesnt seem to show someone who has simply 'sinned' but has completely turned their back on God after having come into this new covenant.

'back-slid' would probably be far better covered by Jesus' parable of the sower in the gospels, honestly.

The point where there is no more hope would tend to be based on when it is that they completely reject the sacrifice of Christ for their sins after having accepted it firstly

Youre questions are nice and all, but they simply do not do away with what the text states.
Ive seen a thousand questions like this asked and they will never change what the scriptures show.
In the MDR debate I see hundreds of hypotheticals presented over the course of a year in an attempt by some to dismiss what Gods word teaches as a whole and these scenarios just do not alter facts from Gods word....neither do your questions do so.

Where is the line?
It seems to be when the person has PURPOSED in their heart and mind to reject the blood of this new covenant as payment for their sins AFTER having firstly accepted it and having repented of sin themselves....

 

[follower of Christ]

So, what I am reading and please correct me if I am wrong - is that the warning in Hebrews is directed at Born-Again believers. Warning them not to 'fall away', but providing no benchmark as to when that might happen.

..and ?
Not detailing when it occurs doesnt negate the warning.
The text is pretty clear tho that it IS BELIEVERS that are being warned....of that fact there is no doubt.
One does not 'warn' someone who has nothing to fear.

That would be like warning someone about a cliff, after they have already fallen off the cliff.

No, you are simply not understanding that the writer is using what WAS occurring with some, as he CLEARLY states ('as is the manner of some") to exhort those remaining to NOT do the same.
He doesnt have to detail out WHEN it occurs in order to get his point across for them NOT TO GO down that path.

"STAY the course' is what he is saying...not 'ride the fence'.
So it isnt necessary in any way to give even a SINGLE detail about where that line is...ONLY to exhort them to KEEP on course as they are..

 

[follower of Christ]

So - are you suggesting that they can not be 'renewed' once they have 'fallen away'?

Very much so when 'falling away' is defined as what it really is as we understand the Hebrew situtation. They were apostatizing because of persecution...completely turning their backs on the faith and returning to Judism.

yes...that is final....

 

[Guest]

So - are you suggesting that they can not be 'renewed' once they have 'fallen away'?

Very much so when 'falling away' is defined as what it really is as we understand the Hebrew situtation. They were apostatizing because of persecution...completely turning their backs on the faith and returning to Judism.

yes...that is final....

In the face of persecution - did not Peter deny Christ? Not once, not twice, but Three times?

 

[follower of Christ]

I don't know that anyone other than God, and possibly the person in question can answer that question.

We probably all know of back-sliders who repented and were restored by God. My own parents are good examples; they didn't live for Christ for years, but then were restored.

We also know that simply denying Christ during a time of testing isn't automatically a 'fall from grace'. Witness Peter and his denial, three times, of Christ.

Absolutely.
Peter didnt determine in his heart that he no longer wanted to follow Christ. He panicked for a time.
His example should be a lesson to those who believe that we are saying 'one slip and your out' or whatever. its not like that at all.
NOw, if Peter had purposed in his heart to completely reject Christ and return to his former 'religion'...that would be another story.

But, I don't think we can just assume that this warning found Hebrews, and able to be confirmed by studying other texts, isn't a 'real' warning to those that believe.

Absolutely.
I dont know how any person can walk away from Hebrews 6 and 10 with anythig short of it being warnings TO believers (as scripture is written to).

I don't think that God plays mind games with us, nor does He threaten, just to scare without any real intention of ever following through on the threat.

I run across these assertions that its all hypothetical all the time.
Its amazing the lengths folks will go to to remove those simple warning from Gods word.

There are unbelievers who, even when they desire to repent, are denied.

This is where it might get sticky.
How many times can a person 'backslide' and remain in sin before God decides enough is enough?
On that particular point I dont think anyone can give an absolute answer...nor should one be even requested...I mean, we ARE trying to actually live holy lives and not simply riding the fence and just 'getting by' with what we have to just to get in, one would think.

 

[follower of Christ]

In the face of persecution - did not Peter deny Christ? Not once, not twice, but Three times?

Youre comparing a momentary lapse in judgement based ENTIRELY on a reflex action by Peter to a decision by some to RETURN to Judaism and forsake the faith....to STOP practicing our faith as show in Hebrews where it says "FORSAKING the assembling"....these folks werent just acting in a moment of fear, but were wilfully turning aside from the faith altogether.

Do you see any difference there ?

 

[follower of Christ]

Let me add that I dont personally believe that the 'falling away' in Hebrews 6 and 10 is necessarily comparable to 'backsliding'.
Look at the writers example there in Hebrews 10 concerning this apostasy...

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

The reference is to Deut. 17 (17:6).
Lets see what it says there....

Deu 17
(2) When there is found among you, in one of your gates which Jehovah your God is giving to you, a man or woman who does that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah your God, in transgressing His covenant, (3) and has gone and served other gods, and worshiped them; or the sun, or the moon, or of the host of the heavens, which I have not commanded; (4) and it has been revealed to you, and you have heard, and searching have searched; and, behold, it is true; and the thing is confirmed, that this hateful thing has been done in Israel, (5) then you shall bring out to your gates that man or that woman who has done this evil thing, the man or the woman; and you shall stone them with stones, and they shall die. (6) At the mouth of two witnesses or three witnesses shall he that is to die be put to death. He shall not be put to death at the mouth of one witness.

This isnt a matter of simply not doing what someone is suppose to do...or sinning on occasion,..but if we take the Hebrews example as HE presented it, we see that he shows a complete apostasy from the faith...the Deut example he uses isnt just about a momentary lapse in judgment, but about going out and serving and worshipping some other god.

The Hebrews were doing just this...forsaking the faith altogether.
yes, I personally believe this IS speaking to all believers and yes, if this type of apostasy occurs I do not believe there is any coming back.

concerning backsliding....I cannot say anything about that except that God has GREAT patience with His children.
But as His children we shoudnt reallly want to test those waters, should we?

 

[Guest]

In the face of persecution - did not Peter deny Christ? Not once, not twice, but Three times?

Youre comparing a momentary lapse in judgement based ENTIRELY on a reflex action by Peter to a decision by some to RETURN to Judaism and forsake the faith....to STOP practicing our faith as show in Hebrews where it says "FORSAKING the assembling"....these folks werent just acting in a moment of fear, but were wilfully turning aside from the faith altogether.

Do you see any difference there ?

Unfortunately these verses are used by some to "scare" Christians that they will lose their salvation when they sin.

Taking verse 4-6 into context, it is clear that the author of Hebrews did not believe his audience was in danger of "falling away". Verse 9 says "Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case - thats that accompany salvation."

The arguement against OSAS is that it creates "lazy believers" - however that is a strawmen arguement against OSAS.