Bible Study Hebrews 6:4-6

[follower of Christ]

Unfortunately these verses are used by some to "scare" Christians that they will lose their salvation when they sin.

I definitely agree and they should NEVER be used in that manner UNLESS the person is literally bordering a situation like the Hebrews were.
We should not teach that salvation is so fickle and fragile a thing...

Taking verse 4-6 into context, it is clear that the author of Hebrews did not believe his audience was in danger of "falling away".

Not by accident or by sinning, no.
His having to even exhort them to begin with does show, however, the possibility of their doing so....otherwise his words are meaningless..without point...

The context is one of literally turning away ...forsaking the faith...not one of committing sin on occasion or even 'denying' as Peter had done in a moment of fear or doubt....otherwise Peter himself would have been condemned.

We need to accept the fact that even believers can apostate themselves as hebrews shows...but also teach that this apostasy is not something that just happens.
'falling away' there isnt meant as simply sinning or a brief lapse....but in seeing the whole context we understand that it is meant to be a more purposeful, permanent thing....literally 'falling away from the faith' where we have rejected after having come to Him.

Again, I say nothing about 'backsliding' which I believe isnt altegether related to apostasy...altho I can see how if someone believed they could just live in any ongoing sin they wanted at some point how it might be deemed the same by God.

Verse 9 says "Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case - thats that accompany salvation."

The arguement against OSAS is that it creates "lazy believers" - however that is a strawmen arguement against OSAS.

Correct...I would see that as a strawman against OSAS myself, even tho I do personally know 'lazy' OSASers who do actually use OSAS to keep living like they do.
If they really believed that at some point God would reject them because THEY chose to abuse grace, they surely might buck up and learn to try to live right.

Verse 9 you gave above is really a good one because it shows the exhortation I was trying to show you earlier.
The writer is cheering the remaining believers on to not shrink back from their faith...from their walk with Christ.

Let me also say that I visited a holiness church a few times with a friend (Im neither here nor there concerning denominations and claim only to be a follower of Christ) and this pastor literally came to my house and used Hebrews about falling away ...the 'forsaking' part....to try to scare me into getting involved in his church.

As many distortions as I believe OSASers pull with the text, there surely are just as many opposite ones presented by others to try to manipulate and frighten believers into just about anything imaginable.

I dont believe in OSAS (altho all of my family does) but I do believe those passages used by them are really great because they show us how firmly we are seated with Christ....that literally NOTHING outside ourselves can take us from His hand.
Unless *I* decide I no longer want His blood covering my sins, there isnt a single thing in all creation that can cause me to lose it.

I love that because it shows me that even now as a believer that God has not stripped me of the free will He gave me to choose while showing also that unless *I* make the choice to reject, there is absolutely nothing else that can cause me to fear losing my place with Him.

 

[Guest]

When the Scriptures say that there is nothing that can pluck us out of His hand - I have to believe that "I" am included in the "nothing".

 

[follower of Christ]

When the Scriptures say that there is nothing that can pluck us out of His hand - I have to believe that "I" am included in the "nothing".

As I said before, you can choose to believe anything you wish...Truth is not altered in the least by your acceptance or rejection of that truth.

I think I can speak for myself and at least one other poster here when I say that youve been given plenty enough to show you the truth...if you still reject it its on your own head, not mine nor the other posters.

My thoughts are that you believe what you WANT to believe rather than what truth as a whole would have you believe.

And I hope now you understand my original use of 'perversion' of the texts...precisely what I now believe you to be doing to keep from accepting the CLEAR truth from the whole word of God...

 

[follower of Christ]

When the Scriptures say that there is nothing that can pluck us out of His hand - I have to believe that "I" am included in the "nothing".

As I said before, you can choose to believe anything you wish...Truth is not altered in the least by your acceptance or rejection of that truth.

I think I can speak for myself and at least one other poster here when I say that youve been given plenty enough to show you the truth...if you still reject it its on your own head, not mine nor the other posters.

My thoughts are that you believe what you WANT to believe rather than what truth as a whole would have you believe.

And I hope now you understand my original use of 'perversion' of the texts...precisely what I now believe you to be doing to keep from accepting the CLEAR truth from the whole word of God...

...also let me clarify once again that Ive no intention of wasting a week here trying to convince you.
If I respond here again it will be only to other posters or the readers of this thread...

 

[Guest]

When the Scriptures say that there is nothing that can pluck us out of His hand - I have to believe that "I" am included in the "nothing".

As I said before, you can choose to believe anything you wish...Truth is not altered in the least by your acceptance or rejection of that truth.

I think I can speak for myself and at least one other poster here when I say that youve been given plenty enough to show you the truth...if you still reject it its on your own head, not mine nor the other posters.

My thoughts are that you believe what you WANT to believe rather than what truth as a whole would have you believe.

And I hope now you understand my original use of 'perversion' of the texts...precisely what I now believe you to be doing to keep from accepting the CLEAR truth from the whole word of God...

Just remember, these same words came be applied to yourself as well :wink:

 

[follower of Christ]

Heres a little verse for you readers...

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

Lets come at that from a couple different angles and see what we can make of it...

Quite clearly the 'if any man' would be the believer there who has seen his 'brother' commit a sin that is not 'unto death'.
Now, that this is speaking about a bit more than merely bodily life is evident from the passage as a whole that uses "eternal life" at least 3 times in verses5:11, 5:13 and 5:20. The context of the passage there is forgiveness of sin...a topic quite directly related to eternity and 'life'.

Lets assume that this man as seen a christian brother commit this sin firstly.
Why would it be that there would even be a 'sin unto death' if the believer has life and cannot do anything to give that life up?
Notice that it is the sin the individual is committing....not as if he 'accidently' lost something, but must have committed this sinful act wilfully.
If we are discussing a believer who has committed this sin, then it pretty much shows the same exact idea as Hebrews does....that there IS some manner for a follower of Christ to commit some act, whatever that may be, that is beyond pardon.

Now lets assume that this christian has seen his biological brother commit this sin who is NOT a believer in Christ.
What act could a nonbeliever commit as a single 'sin' that is UNforgivable that the a BELIEVER could commit and get away with?
What sinful act would seal an UNbelievers fate so much so that the believer is basically told not to even waste his time praying for it that a BELIEVER could commit exactly the same and it not be even worse.

Peter says.

2Pe 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. (21) For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (22) But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

If a man has come to Christ and then rejected it is WORSE than if he had NEVER even come to begin with.

That idea with the prior shows me that the believer who committed this 'sin unto death' would be in FAR worse shape than if an UNbeliever committed the very same act.
Why? Because AS believers...as those who profess to love and follow Him, how much more treacherous for US to then blaspheme Him than for someone who simply doesnt even believe He really exists.

Logically, who is committing the greater crime here, this man who DOESNT believe in Christ and thinks its all a fairly tale .....or someone who DOES believe in Him...who HAS partaken of His Spirit...only to one day decide to spit in His face and not reject Him, but RENOUNCE Him instead.

Regardless of what some here believe, the scriptures are VERY consistant in this regard.
Those who HAVE come to Him thru the blood of His covenant DO still have the free will to reject just as any unbeliever has that same freedom.
When rejection comes from one of His own, tho, it would surely be far worse than someone who never knew Him....just as Peter shows in his letter.

If this 'sin unto death' is committed by the believer, the writer says not to even pray about it.
That says multitudes to me, given all the other scriptures on the topic...even if it doesnt say anything to anyone else..

 

[follower of Christ]

Just remember, these same words came be applied to yourself as well :wink:

Im not the one hiding behind a verse or two that dont actually say what you force them to say...that YOU cannot reject Him yourself.....to keep from accepting the context of the WHOLE of Gods word that shows very clearly that apostasy has ALWAYS been possible.

 

[Guest]

If this 'sin unto death' is committed by the believer, the writer says not to even pray about it.
That says multitudes to me, given all the other scriptures on the topic...even if it doesnt say anything to anyone else..

incorrect - the writer says "I am not saing that he should pray about that" and goes on to say "All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."

The writer does not say "You cannot" or "You should not".

"Sin unto death" would be the final rejection of Christ.

 

[Guest]

Just remember, these same words came be applied to yourself as well :wink:

Im not the one hiding behind a verse or two that dont actually say what you force them to say...that YOU cannot reject Him yourself.....to keep from accepting the context of the WHOLE of Gods word that shows very clearly that apostasy has ALWAYS been possible.

Those whom the Holy Spirit has called unto Himself, while might at some point back-slide, ultimately CANNOT reject Him.

 

[follower of Christ]

"Sin unto death" would be the final rejection of Christ.

And that can be committed by ANYONE...as Hebrew PROVES whether you like it or not.

 

[follower of Christ]

Those whom the Holy Spirit has called unto Himself, while might at some point back-slide, ultimately CANNOT reject Him.

Sorry, but your view simply is not backed by scripture that shows apostasy IS quite possible by the believer.

I told you before, Im not interested in trying to convert you, poster, and wont bother trying to do so.
the readers here can judge for themselves if you seem to be just offering YOUR desires over what GODS WORD clearly says from the whole....

One thing about truth that is so wonderful is that OUR approval or agreement isnt necessary...TRUTH remains TRUTH regardless of what WE wish to believe.
;)

EDIT...Readers feel free to browse over my previous posts to see what YOU think for yourself. Dont let my opinion or any other cause you to believe what WE want you to believe. Let the evidence from Gods whole word speak the truth as a harmonious whole.
Some say 'CANNOT' reject Him, but the facts from Gods word show quite a different story.

 

[handy]

Those whom the Holy Spirit has called unto Himself, while might at some point back-slide, ultimately CANNOT reject Him.

I agree with Follower here, that this is simply not a statement of Biblical truth.

What we need to realize is that there are, as always, two sides to our salvation: The encouragements to us from God, showing that we can have full assurance that God will not leave us or forsake us, and also the exhortations from God, warning us that we need to perservere and remain true to the faith.

Scott, the main trouble I have with what you said that I quoted above is the word CANNOT. You are stating emphatically that there it is impossible to fall away from faith to the point that one does not enter into God's final rest. I contend that the scriptures are teaching us, in this passage as well as the passage of the parable of the seeds, that it most certainly is possible to fall away.

Now, I also think that the Scriptures have overwhelming texts that assure us that God will preserve and protect His saints. So, although the possibility of someone not reaching the goal does exist, because of God's faithfulness, He won't lose those He redeemed.

But, there is a huge difference in comparing God's faithfulness to us with a non-existant 'impossibility'. The one calls out to us to remain faithful to the One who shows faithfulness to us. The other is a false, maybe even destructive assurance that once we "believe and recieve" then we will never, under any circumstances, land anywhere else but heaven.

Jesus clearly, clearly taught that those whom believed and recieved the word withered away. Paul told the Galatians that there were at least someone within the recipients of his epistles who was 'severed from Christ' for teaching that one needed to be under the Law. The writer of the Hebrews states emphatically that even while anyone who set aside the Law of Moses died "without mercy", the penalty for someone who tramples underfoot the Son of God will be even more severe.

Now Scott, I think you make a basic mistake that most who have been inundated with OSAS theology make: That because God always follows His most direst warnings with encouragments that He believes that we will perservere, that the warnings must somehow not be for us. But, this is not logical thinking.

Let me illustrate in this way:

Just yesterday my daughter, who is a 'tween' now, was saying that she wanted to 'party'. Now, she didn't understand at all what 'partying' meant. She was thinking in terms of having a fun time with friends, not getting into drugs and alcohol. But, because she is also having more and more of a social life, it's not too early for me to start warning her of the very real dangers she will face as she socializes with peers. So, we had quite the talk about the dangers of 'parties' where people are drinking and doing drugs. Now, as I was warning her of these very real dangers, I also told her that I knew she was a smart girl who always wants to please God and that I knew that she would do her best to not get involved with drugs and alcohol.

But, what kind of trouble will my daughter get into if she decides that, because I gave her the encouragement of my belief that she's a good, smart kid, she can ignore every warning I give her to the dangers of 'parties'? We all know the shattering, sometimes even fatal, problems teens face simply because they are prone to ignore the very real warnings we parents give about very real dangers. They simply want to believe that the warnings really don't apply to them, because the dangers out there just won't happen to them.

I truly think the conversation that I had with my daughter yesterday can be compared with the warnings and encouragement found in Hebrews 6: The danger of falling away is real, but the writer is convinced that the Hebrews will perservere.

But, let's break down that encouragement:

But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises. Hebrews 6:9-12

...though we are speaking in this way. Does this not show that the point about falling away is directed towards them? The writer isn't saying, 'hey that's them, not you" he is stating that even though he just gave them a stern, even dire warning, they can still be encouraged.

...still ministering to the saints. No, the writer doesn't give a date/time accuracy of when such a falling away may take place, but obviously these recipients, although flirting with danger have still not crossed the line of no return. They are still showing fruit by following God's commandments. So, being convinced of better things for these Hebrews makes sense.

...show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance. It takes diligence doesn't it. Why? Why would we need be diligent if our salvation is a 'done deal'?

...through faith and patience inherit the promises. We inherit the promises by abiding in faith and patience. If we lose faith and patience, then the inheritence can be lost. As Jesus also said:

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up (withers); and they gather them, and cast them into the fires, and they are burned.

I think it's bad theology to conclude that just because God always follows up His warnings to us with encouragments, that the warnings simply cannot be directed towards us.

Look again at Jesus' words: "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away..."

Are we going to say that a branch can be IN Christ, yet not be a Christian?

 

[Lewis]

[/q1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
uote]
I have used that scripture many times. For instance when I would be talking about doing drugs or prostitution, if the drugs did not cause you to die, pray, get the idea.
And here is another one that is almost like Hebrews 6 that I use talking to people at times about sin. Hey I have been gone for a couple of days, I did not know that you all, were still talking about this.


2 Peter 2:20-22

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[handy]

Glad to see you back, Lewis. You've shared a good text as well. There are so many more like it, not to mention all the texts that exhort us to keep the faith.

 

[Vic C.]

I see we got caught up in the discussion concerning a "sin unto death". Good, it's a worthy discussion about a exremely difficult verse to interpret. I understand it to be this way:

If it's within God's power to save, it's also within His power to preserve. The believer who continues to sin or backslides to the point of sinning again, will receive punnishment, but it will be physical, as in suffering to the point where he physically dies. God just takes this person out of the world, salvation still intact, though they suffered tremendously in life. In other words, God's hedge of protection was lifted from this person.

I wouldn't want to pray that death for anyone, including myself. May we all die in peace and with the peace of God in our hearts and conscience.

There are a few links I found whicg explain this sin unto death in an understandable way:

http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-unto-death.html
http://www.biblenews1.com/define/sinuntodeath.htm
http://www.learnthebible.org/q_a_prayin ... _death.htm

(Excerpt from last link)

What then is the Sin unto Death?

We need to consider other Bible passages at this point. Are there sins in the Bible that are turned over to their just deserts in a way that removes prayer for them? Yes, there are. We will look at a couple of them.

1. In 1Corinthians 5:1-5, Paul referred to a man who had taken his father’s wife. He declared that this level of perversion was not even known among the Gentiles. Something had to be done. Paul counseled the church at Corinth to “deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.â€Â

2. In 1Timothy 1:19-20, Paul spoke of Hymenaeus and Alexander. These two men had made shipwreck concerning the faith and Paul had delivered them “unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.â€Â

In both cases, the men in question had gone into perversion: the first into physical perversion; the second into doctrinal perversion. These were not minor things, but matters of immorality or infidelity. They involved a total and blatant rejection of the truth of God. In both cases, Paul delivered them unto Satan.

However, this was not a condemnation to hell. In the first example, the man repented of his sins and got right with God. The act of turning the men over to Satan was a last act of outreach to them. Paul was removing all the protections that prayer often provides and allowing them to suffer for their own sins while still on earth.

We had a similar discussion here:

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=29112&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=210

This is the first post from that thread page:

The Bible declares there is a "sin unto death:"

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

This sin committed by a Christian who grieves God by continually sinning in the face of Light and the conviction of the Holy Spirit. That Christian's life is cut short; meaning, they die prematurely. It is not a reference to being lost or going to hell. A "sin unto death" is not a reference to the unpardonable sin.

John says that we should not pray for those who sin unto death. What does he mean by this? We have a right to pray for any Christian who is in sin, that God would restore him to fellowship. We also have the right to pray that God would spare him from sickness that comes because of sin (James 5:16,17). But if God is going to take him home to heaven prematurley because of his sin then our prayers will have no bearing on the case. We are not to pray for him. This is my understanding on the "sin unto death."

 

[handy]

Hi vic, glad to see your thoughts on this subject.

The problem with interpreting texts such as 1 John 5:16 is this: The concept comes up basically only once in Scripture, and it's hard to determine from the text just exactly what it means. So, most folks will push and shove the interpretation into their current theology. A person who believes that one can fall away will point to this verse and say, "here's yet more proof". A person who is firmly in the OSAS camp, will come up with something more like what you have. The simple fact is the text was probably clear enough to the recipients of the letter, and it will certainly fit right in with whatever is the truth of the matter before us, but it really isn't the best text to appeal to in trying to resolve a conflict like the one we are discussing. It's just too obscure.

On the other hand, texts such as Hebrew 6 or Hebrews 9 or Jesus' explanation of the parables of the seeds, and Peter's warning to whatever church he was writing to in his second letter, are much more clear on the subject that one can escape the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior, and yet be overcome again.

 

[follower of Christ]

I see we got caught up in the discussion concerning a "sin unto death". Good, it's a worthy discussion about a exremely difficult verse to interpret. I understand it to be this way:

If it's within God's power to save, it's also within His power to preserve. The believer who continues to sin or backslides to the point of sinning again, will receive punnishment, but it will be physical, as in suffering to the point where he physically dies. God just takes this person out of the world, salvation still intact, though they suffered tremendously in life. In other words, God's hedge of protection was lifted from this person.

The problem I see with this, vic, is that the context of that part of 1 John is about 'eternal life' and the life Christ gives....it isnt just refering to the temporal life of our physical bodies.
In context of that 'life' and death, Im sorry, that 'sin unto death' seems more like the unforgivable sin of blaphemy that cannot be forgiven and is 'sin unto death'....eternally speaking.

Read that chapter of 1 John again and see if the context there isnt about eternal life instead of physical life...

1Jn 5:10-20 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. (11) And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. (12) He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (13) These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (14) And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: (15) And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. (16) If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. (17) All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. (18) We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (19) And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. (20) And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Im sorry, but the context there is ETERNAL life that Christ gives....I see nothing there about physical life and death.

Additionally, I dont see that this is entirely the same, as you seem to.

Jas 5:14-15 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: (15) And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

Where in that passage does it say that this mans sin are the cause of his sickness, firstly ?

Based on the 'and if he have committed sins' it would seem that James is definitely showing that the sickness isnt related to the illness at all.
But in either case, this isnt at all related to the 'sin unto death' that is showing eternal life and death as in 1 John above.

 

[follower of Christ]

1 John 5:16

1 John 5:16

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

There is a sin unto death;
which is not only deserving of death, as every other sin is, but which certainly and inevitably issues in death in all that commit it, without exception; and that is the sin against the Holy Ghost, which is neither forgiven in this world nor in that to come, and therefore must be unto death; it is a sinning wilfully, not in a practical, but doctrinal way, after a man has received the knowledge of the truth; it is a wilful denial of the truth of the Gospel, particularly that peace, pardon, righteousness, eternal life, and salvation, are by Jesus Christ, contrary to the light of his mind, and this joined with malice and obstinacy; so that there is no more or other sacrifice for such a sin; there is nothing but a fearful looking for of wrath and fury to fall on such opposers of the way of life; and as the presumptuous sinners under Moses's law died without mercy, so must these despiteful ones under the Gospel; see Mat_12:31. Some think there is an allusion to one of the kinds of excommunication among the Jews, called "shammatha", the etymology of which, according to some Jewish writers, is שנמית×â€, "there is death" (t).

I do not say that he shall pray for it;
the apostle does not expressly forbid to pray for the forgiveness of this sin, yet what he says amounts unto it; he gives no encouragement to it, or any hopes of succeeding, but rather the reverse; and indeed where this sin is known, or can be known, it is not to be prayed for, because it is irremissible; but as it is a most difficult point to know when a man has sinned it, the apostle expresses himself with great caution.
-Gill

The answer to this is right in the very verse itself.

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

He shall give life to those who dont commit sin unto death
it CANNOT be speaking of physical life because they clearly are ALREADY alive, no?
So what 'life' shall he give them who do not 'sin unto death' ?

The context of that passage shows clearly that it IS speaking about eternal 'life'.
Based on the conditional statement that he shall give life to those who do not 'sin unto death' it is quite easily deduced that he will NOT give them 'life' who have commited 'sin unto death'.

 

[handy]

I have to admit, that after carefully reading all these various explanations of 1 John 5:16, the idea that the 'sin unto death' being along the lines of the sinner suffering a physical death but not a spiritual death doesn't seem to fit. As Follower pointed out, the entire context is of eternal life, and nowhere in the passage does the idea of a believer suffering a physical death because of their sins come into play. I think that is forcing an interpretation onto the text that just doesn't fit the context.

Brothers, I know it is very hard to look at these verses without letting preconcieved notions color our interpretations of them. I know this personally because for years I was a dyed in the wool Calvinist and it took me a long time to learn to read through these passages without having Calvinist doctrine coloring what I read.

But I know that all of us who are partaking in this discussion will agree that it's always best to take a verse as meaning pretty much what it says, and see if that interpretation holds up to the rest of the word. As there are not only many other texts that speak to the warning that we may indeed fail to meet the goal, as well as many verses that urge us not to lose the faith, and even some texts that speak of those who did turn away from the faith, isn't the logical conclusion that we can indeed lose faith and turn away?

 

[handy]

Still studying this whole "sin unto death" and how it relates to Hebrews 6:4-6.

I'd like some thoughts on this text as well, and how it may compare to 1 John 5:16:

My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one of you turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

The context of this passage is an exhortation to be patient and endure sufferings and hardship until the Lord returns. Included in this exhortation is that if anyone is ill, they should call upon the elders of the church, and the Lord will then raise him up, and if they had committed sins, they will be forgiven. This is where we are told to confess our sins to one another and to pray for one another for the "effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much."

I think we can safely compare this passage with 1 John 5:16 as far as a 'sin not leading to death'.

Looking closer at verse 19 then, we see that James encourages us to help those who know the truth but are straying from it.

Now, it gets sticky: James tells us that if someone is straying from the truth, and someone else turns him back, he will "save his soul from death" and "cover a multitude of sins."

We know that we are saved from death and have our mulititude of sins covered by the blood of Christ. We know that James isn't saying that one Christian can actually save someone, but rather he is telling us that we can effectively encourage and exhort another to the throne of grace so that they will be covered by the blood of the Lamb.

The only thing is, the whole context is again that of believers. It is believers who need to be patient for the coming of the Lord, it is believers who need to pray when suffering and sing praises when cheerful. It is believers who should call for the elders when sick, and to pray for one another and to confess our sins (those sins not leading to death) to one another.

Since this whole context is speaking to and about believers, does it make any sense at all to say that when we get to the phrase, "turns a sinner from the error of his way" that the "sinner" is an unbeliever? Why would James interject our responsiblity to share the gospel with unbelievers into the middle of not only a complete passage regarding believers, but into the middle of a sentence? The sentence does start out after all as "Brethren, if any among you".

If it is true that a believer can stray from the truth to the point that he falls away and becomes severed from Christ, then this passage makes very good sense. For if we see a brother straying further and further from Christ, and turn him back again to the truth and to confessing his sin, then he never did get to the point of the sin that leads to death, he remained within the context of the sin not leading to death. But, should his straying lead him to ultimately reject the gospel that he had believe and recieved, then he has committed the 'sin that leads to death' and there is no hope then, for there is no hope outside of the gospel.