Hell Fire

[RND]

I do not believe the Bible teaches that God will allow people to live for "eternity" so that He can roast, toast or otherwise fricassee "unrepentant sinners." In fact I see this type of teaching and thought straight out of Satan's playbook of lies and misrepresentation regarding God's perfect character and perfect nature of "unconditional" love.

In other words God loves the "repentant" just as much as He love the "unrepentant." His ultimate desire is that no one perishes.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

I am not a "universalist." I do not believe everyone will be saved simply because I believe that there are some people that do not want to be saved and would be absolutely miserable in the presence of a totally holy, just, loving and perfect God.

That said I do not believe a totally holy, just, loving and perfect God will resort to unmerciful and unrelenting torture of the "wicked" perpetually "forever and ever." I believe that the notion of "eternal torment" is of pagan origin and there is nothing in the Bible, either Old or New Testaments, that confirms the notion that people will live forever just so God can torture them.

A God of a "love me or else" mindset is a god I do not serve nor choose to serve. I serve a God so full of love that He would provide His enemies with the means to salvation and reconciliation without even asking for it! I serve a God that is full of mercy and love for: "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." - 1 John 4:8

Thus, I would like to ask some question from author and "universalist" Gary Amirault that I consider pertinent to the discussion. These questions are from his book Is Salvation A Deliverance From Hell or Eternal Death?

• If Hell is real, if God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

• If Hell is real, if God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them? Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

• If Hell is real, is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35) Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

• If Hell is real, if all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?

• If Hell is real, would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment--that is, merciful to the sufferer?

• If Hell is real, if the demands of divine justice are opposed to the requirements of mercy, is not God divided against Himself? If the requirements of mercy are opposed to the demands of the justice of God, can His kingdom stand? -- (Mark 3:24)

• If Hell is real, does not judgment triumph over mercy and thus contradict this Scripture? (James 2:13)

• If Hell is real, if you had sufficient power would you not deliver all men from sin? If God WOULD save all men, but CANNOT , is He infinite in power?

• If Hell is real, if God CAN save all men, but WILL NOT , is He infinite in goodness?

• If Hell is real and created by God, does it not stand against God's DESIRE the salvation of all men? (1 Tim. 2:3-4) Since God is righteous, must not the desire for universal salvation be a RIGHTEOUS desire? Is it true, that "the desire of the righteous shall be granted?" -- (Prov. 10:24)

• If Hell is real, would endless misery benefit the Almighty, as the INFLICTOR ? Would endless misery benefit the saints, as SPECTATORS ? Would endless misery benefit the sinner, as the SUFFERER ?

• If Hell is real and endless punishment is the "wages of sin," could the sinner ever receive payment in full? (Rom. 6:23)

• If Hell is real and sin is infinite, can it be true that, "where sin abounded grace did MUCH MORE abound?" --(Rom. 5:20)

• If Hell is real, if ONE sin deserves an eternity of punishment, how much punishment will TEN sins deserve?

These are but a few questions that Gary Amirault offers. I pray in our examination of this subject that we will discover a God that has done everything in His power to reveal Himself to mankind and to display His awesome character and nature through the Life of His Son, Jesus Christ.

The first lie:

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[LostSoul]

IThe first lie:

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

God has never once told a lie. When He spoke of this, I do believe His original intention was for us to live with Him as we will one day in Heaven forever. But because we chose to sin, we chose to live with our consequences. God is as any loving father, He gives us choices and allows us to make them, though not completely allowing it without consequences. For to each action we take, there is a response.

Do I personally believe there is Hell? Yes, it is mentioned thoroughly throughout scripture. What is its purpose.....regretably it is a doman where those who never came to see, as well as those who never Truly knew Christ will spend eternity. In the OT....I think....unless I am wrong...it could be the NT in which a particular passage refers to the very idea of what Hell is like and with a warning for us to tell our loved ones of this while we have the chance. For not all will come to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Does this mean God hates those that end up there? I do not believe so. As I have stated before....God gives us the choice and time throughout the course of our lives for US to decide where our hearts are.

For though a man or woman can call themselves a Christian...not all will be so. There are passages I believe that speak of being Lukewarm, or reference to those in which Jesus will speak "I know you not.....or depart from me, I never knew you."

All in all, I feel this could be another matter of perspective....for not all will interpret this the same way. But....in a nut shell those are my thoughts.

 

[RND]

IThe first lie:

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

God has never once told a lie.

"...the serpent said..."

The serpent lied.

 

[LostSoul]

IThe first lie:

Gen 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which [is] in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

God has never once told a lie.

"...the serpent said..."

The serpent lied.

My mistake....

 

[RND]

Let's take one question from Gary Amirault and focus in on what it asks.

If Hell is real, if ONE sin deserves an eternity of punishment, how much punishment will TEN sins deserve?

I'm a sinner and I have sinned. But according to David the only one I've sinned against is God Himself.

Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest.

With that said would God have a different roasting pattern (time, method) for me than say a Pol Pot who, allegedly, murdered millions? If so how does the fact that God requires more from people that know of Him and His word than those that don't play into the equation?

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Luke 12:48 seems to suggest that those that don't know the Lord and His ways but did things worthy of punishment will be lightly punished. Could the reason that Pol Pot allegedly killed millions be because he didn't know the Lord? Will God punish Pol Pot less for killing millions but punish a Christian more for say, stealing an apple? Will God punish the apple thief the same as the murderer?

 

[LostSoul]

Does God require more of those who believe in Him? Yes, I think He does.

Why?

Simply because we are not only to know His written word, but write on our HEARTS every word. In other words, we are to strive to live by it. Not simply just speak or read it. We are to walk every day in it.

David though there is no doubt he struggled and sinned like the rest, when he sinned, he repented and strove not to sin in that way anymore. So too should we.

 

[Firestorm]

It's a simple case of logic for me. Eventually, you'll have to have burned long enough to pay for the sins.

 

[John]

I think there are different levels of hell, ranging from to extremes, a simple place where God is not present at all and to the other extreme... an eternal lake of fire.

 

[Rick W]

Absolutely knowing heaven and Christ are there, what heaven is and who Christ is, but being without would be Hell enough for anyone I would suppose.

One thing though. It's interesting when considering God's judgment as "fire". Unquenchable judgment. He won't change His mind.

 

[Rick W]

Don't underestimate the seriousness of sin, nor the urgency of salvation.
I honestly believe many miss the logic of it all, from Genesis to Revelation.

We know what happened in the Garden. Through sin death came into the world. That's quite a serious judgment. That's one warning none of us escape, not believer, not unbeliever. Doesn't matter who you are, what you do... God remains steadfast in His judgment.
That's the first warning.

Some may believe the second to be the flood. Due to unrepentance God wiped out all of humanity, men, women, children and beast. All but a few were allowed to live. How serious is sin? You tell me.
That's the second warning.

The third is to come. And it's not going to be anything close to the previous warnings. This one is the ultimate, the third and last. Think about it. The first, death. The second, the end of humanity as it existed. And now the third, everlasting. If we ignore the previous warnings how can we expect God's wrath not to be even stronger?

We are all under God's wrath, right now, today. Tomorrow you, me, everyone faces death for the consequence of sin. Nobody escapes. Unquenchable judgment. No getting around that. Do we listen or do we shrug it off while ignoring the message of His wrath to come as something illogical or unfair?

 

[Timf]

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/eon1.html

The word we translate for eternity may not have the meaning commonly associated with it (forever and ever). In addition to the confusion we can derive from the meaning in the Greek and corresponding Hebrew, we also have to face our limited understanding of the eternal state.

Is eternity the end of time or time unending?

Instead of trying to nail God down with our theological hammers in a box of our definition and comprehension, perhaps we should make room for what we don't understand.

If we define God as torturing people with pain and suffering throughout eternity, we diminish His love and mercy. If we define God as letting the hard hearted and rebellious suffer no punishment, we define Him as being unjust. The Bible tells us God is both just and merciful. Even though we may not understand the specifics, we can trust that God is not cruel.

 

[St Francis]

The eternity of hell is obviously taught in the New Testament. in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "...it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Jesus warns us that people will go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

But some people want to twist the Bible's words: The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat.

But, the constant teaching of Christianity affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the eterniity of an eternal hell

 

[RND]

The eternity of hell is obviously taught in the New Testament. in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "...it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched."

How is this similar or dissimilar to being thrown into "outer darkness?"

Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

What can we conclude Jesus was teaching regarding being thrown into outer darkness?

And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Revelation 14:10 seems to suggest that the Holy Angels and the Lamb (Jesus) are in hell also. Is that true?

Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

If one knew they were in the presence of the Lamb and the angels and didn't deserve to be in their Holy presence could that be considered torment?

Jesus warns us that people will go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

Doesn't this verse seem to allude to the Song of Moses?

Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
24 [They shall be] burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.

David seems to allude to the "pit" (Grave) being where 'destruction' takes place

Psa 55:23 But thou, O God, shalt bring them down into the pit of destruction: bloody and deceitful men shall not live out half their days; but I will trust in thee.

Psa 73:18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction.

But some people want to twist the Bible's words: The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormons all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat.

Can mutual love be obtained through "threats?"

But, the constant teaching of Christianity affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God.

The Bible teaches that everyone that dies is separated from God.

Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the eterniity of an eternal hell

Too bad they were more interested in control and power than truth.

 

[RND]

If we define God as torturing people with pain and suffering throughout eternity, we diminish His love and mercy. If we define God as letting the hard hearted and rebellious suffer no punishment, we define Him as being unjust. The Bible tells us God is both just and merciful. Even though we may not understand the specifics, we can trust that God is not cruel.

Timf I certainly think you have reduced the argument to the basics with respect to the view you have expressed here. The type of character we associate with God and what we assume His true nature to be can be greatly exposed when discussing this topic. In generalizing it seems we begin to reflect the type of God we worship and one that is really a reflection of our individual character.

 

[duval]

LOST LAMB, RICK, Thanks for your posts. I for one believe them.

RND, may I ask, what then is your understanding of hell?

 

[samuel]

I wondered for a long time, exactly what the difference between the "Lake of Fire", and "Outer Darkness" was. For a long time it seemed to be the same, but it is not. Someone said there were different levels of torment, you were right.

While both aforementioned places ARE for eternity, they differ, and are for different people. The unprofitable servant was still considered a servant, but was selfish in his purposes, not caring for the masters good. To understand this punishment, you must know something about Hebrew laws, and traditions. Many of Christs parables, were based on Hebrew traditions and laws. And to understand them, you must study these things. Those familiar with law, and tradition understood them, but most of us do not.

 

[RND]

RND, may I ask, what then is your understanding of hell?

The grave.

 

[RND]

I wondered for a long time, exactly what the difference between the "Lake of Fire", and "Outer Darkness" was. For a long time it seemed to be the same, but it is not. Someone said there were different levels of torment, you were right.

While both aforementioned places ARE for eternity, they differ, and are for different people. The unprofitable servant was still considered a servant, but was selfish in his purposes, not caring for the masters good. To understand this punishment, you must know something about Hebrew laws, and traditions. Many of Christs parables, were based on Hebrew traditions and laws. And to understand them, you must study these things. Those familiar with law, and tradition understood them, but most of us do not.

Just out of curiosity samuel how do you view the scriptures that seem to suggest that those that know to do good, that know the Master's will, that do not do good or do the Master's will be beaten with many stripes?

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].

Luke 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Luke 12:47-48 seem to suggest that those that don't know the Lord and His ways but did things worthy of punishment will be lightly punished.

Could the reason that Pol Pot allegedly killed millions be because he didn't know the Lord? Will God punish Pol Pot less for killing millions but punish a Christian more for say, stealing an apple? Will God punish the apple thief the same as the murderer?

To me these are interesting situational questions that seem to suggest what we feel God is really like. I was telling a client today that I think many Christians are mistaken to believe that God is a God so loving and merciful to save them, yet so unloving and unmerciful when it comes to punishment.

 

[duval]

RND: When you say your view of hell is the "grave", do you have the same understanding then of hell as the Jehovah's Witnesses?

 

[samuel]

Remeber what James effectively said, sin is sin, when you overstep one law you have broken all. So the punishment for the murder, will be no greater than that of the apple thief. All who are not in Christ, are guilty! before the whole law of God's righteousness (no the law for those still in their sins is not dead, or abolished).

But then there are sins of commission, and sins of omission, these differ, and differ in punishment.