Hell Fire

[Paidion]

The word "perdition" in Greek, the koine, of which you have studied as even eternal misery. Thus one example of Paul using the subject and a word which meant "eternal" and "misery."

I must categorically deny the idea that the noun "ἀÀÉλεια" contains any eternal aspect. The word is believed to be derived from the verb "ἀÀολλÅμι" which means "destroy". Thus the noun simply means "destuction". Here are just a few other passages which use this Greek noun:

Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 26:8 But the disciples were indignant when they saw this, and said, "Why this waste [literally "For what this destruction"] ?

2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies [literallly "heresies of destruction"], even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.

 

[duval]

PAIDION---Then you know better than Thayer--duval

 

[Paidion]

Duval, I don't have access to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, but I do have Abbott-Smith's.

After defining "ἀÀÉλεια" as destruction, waste, loss, perishing, the Abbott-Smith lexicon mentions a "special sense of the loss of eternal life". However this does not imply that "eternal" is inherent in the meaning of "ἀÀÉλεια", but is rather an indication of the application of the meaning of the word.

 

[duval]

Thank you Paidion. I do not have Abbot-Smith myself. I'll let you know what Thayer says when I can see the fine print.---Duval

 

[turnorburn]

Mark 9: 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
49 For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.
50 Salt is good: but if the salt have lost his saltness, wherewith will ye season it? Have salt in yourselves, and have peace one with another.

turnorburn

 

[RND]

I haven't been following this thread so some of this might be mentioned earlier but I noticed a couple of things.

He told Adam that if Adam disobeyed he would die, not burn forever in the flames of an eternal wennie roast. I think God could have cleared things up right from the beginning by saying to Adam that if you disobey me you'll roast, toast and fricassee forever.

Strawman.

In what way?

If burning eternally in the flames of "hell" was an absolute possibility for Adam why is it a "strawman" argument to point out that God never mentioned this possibility to Adam?

 

[dadof10]

Duval, I don't have access to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, but I do have Abbott-Smith's.

Here are the two I use and they're both online.

Thayer's http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Vine's Topical Bible http://www2.mf.no/bibelprog/vines?tofrom=A

Is Abbot-Smith's online?

 

[St Francis]

Duval, I don't have access to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, but I do have Abbott-Smith's.

Here are the two I use and they're both online.

Thayer's http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Vine's Topical Bible http://www2.mf.no/bibelprog/vines?tofrom=A

Is Abbot-Smith's online?

Great info. Thanks.

 

[St Francis]

I haven't been following this thread so some of this might be mentioned earlier but I noticed a couple of things.

He told Adam that if Adam disobeyed he would die, not burn forever in the flames of an eternal wennie roast. I think God could have cleared things up right from the beginning by saying to Adam that if you disobey me you'll roast, toast and fricassee forever.

Strawman.

In what way?

If burning eternally in the flames of "hell" was an absolute possibility for Adam why is it a "strawman" argument to point out that God never mentioned this possibility to Adam?

Who says he didnt?

 

[RND]

Who says he didnt?

Scripture. Moshe Rabbeinu specifically.

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

muwth a primitive root: to die (literally or figuratively); causatively, to kill:--X at all, X crying, (be) dead (body, man, one), (put to, worthy of) death, destroy(-er), (cause to, be like to, must) die, kill, necro(-mancer), X must needs, slay, X surely, X very suddenly, X in (no) wise.

Satan is the one that told the lie that man "surely would not die."
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

 

[duval]

RND wrote: "he told Adam that if Adam desobeyed he would die, not burn forever in the flames of an eternal wennie roast. I think God could have cleared things up right from the beginning by saying to Adam that if you disobey me you'll roast, toast and fricassee forever."

Once again, I am OFFENDED at the language you use in regard to scripture. Your phrases such as "wennie roast", "toast," "roast" and "fricassee" forever are terms I beliecve no honest student of the Bible should use. The above can only excite prejudice and ill-feelings. They mock God and His word. They do not have any rightful place in a discussion of God's word regardless of the view one takes.They are intended to instill in others a belief that those who hold an understanding of the scripture opposite of yours believe God rejoices in the death of the wicked, even though I have supplied you with at least 3 passages from the 1st three chapters of Provbers that God indeed does not "take pleasure" in the end of the wicked. Rather, you seriously need to address Rev.14:11 (which passage I told you wall all one needs to overturn your doctrine, and there are many more) which reads: "AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDS FOREVER AND EVER; AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST AND HIS IMAGE, AND WOEVER RECEIVES THE MARK OF HIS NAME.' Enough of wennie roasts and fricassee (which is to fry in its own juice), Tell us what Rev.14:11 means if it does not mean what it says!

As for Adam the answer is easy when one has studied the word "death" and "die" in the Bible, and Adam did die the day he ate. I do not suppose "death" and "die" are part of this thread. If you wish to discuss it on the debate forum let it be known.

 

[duval]

Hi Paidion:
This is what I find in Thayer, pg.70,71. I offer here only what seems crucial to the thread.
"apoleia--" a perishing, ruin, destruction----with the idea of misery, I Tim.6:9;------( Of II Pet2:3. "the destruction which consists in the loss of eternal life, eternal misery, perdition, the lot of those excluded from the kingdom of God:""-----"A man doomed to eternal misery" (of II Thes.2:3)
I have the corrected edition of Thayer.

God bless

 

[Paidion]

Rather, you seriously need to address Rev.14:11 (which passage I told you wall all one needs to overturn your doctrine, and there are many more) which reads: "AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDS FOREVER AND EVER; AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST AND HIS IMAGE, AND WOEVER RECEIVES THE MARK OF HIS NAME.'

I agree that this passage does seem to contradict the Annihilationist view of hell.

However when translated correctly, it is consistent with the Universal Reconciliation view.
The Greek phrase "εἰ αἰÉνα αἰÉνÉν" does NOT mean "forever and ever". It literally means
"for ages of ages", and that, I believe is the actual meaning.

Believers in UR see hell as God's method of correcting and reconciling those who are sentenced to enter there. For the worst of the rebels, this will take a long time, namely "ages of ages".

Here is how Origen (185-255)described the reconciliation of the lost to God:

The restoration to unity must not be imagined as a sudden happening. Rather it is to be thought of as gradually effected by stages during the passing of countless ages. Little by little and individually the correction and purification will be accomplished. Some will lead the way and climb to the heights with swifter progress, others following right behind them; yet others will be far behind. Thus multitudes of individuals and countless orders will advance and reconcile themselves to God, who once were enemies; and so at length the last enemy will be reached. ...
De Principiis, III.vi.6

When it is said that ‘the last enemy shall be destroyed’, it is not to be understood as meaning that his substance, which is God's creation, perishes, but that his purpose and hostile will perishes; for this does not come from God but from himself. Therefore his destruction means not his ceasing to exist but ceasing to be an enemy and ceasing to be death. Nothing is impossible to omni potence; there is nothing that cannot be healed by its Maker. De Principiis, 1.vi.1-4

[Isa. I. II ... 'the fire which you have kindled'.] This seems to indicate that the individual sinner kindles the flame of his personal fire and that he is not plunged into some fire kindled by another, ... God acts in dealing with sinners as a physician ... the fury of his anger is profitable for the purging of souls. Even that penalty which is said to be imposed by way of fire is understood as applied to assist a sinner to health ...[cf. Isa. xlvii. 14,15, x. 17, Ixvi. 16; Mal. iii. 3] De Principiis, II.x.4,6

 

[RND]

[RND wrote: "he told Adam that if Adam desobeyed he would die, not burn forever in the flames of an eternal wennie roast. I think God could have cleared things up right from the beginning by saying to Adam that if you disobey me you'll roast, toast and fricassee forever."

Once again, I am OFFENDED at the language you use in regard to scripture. Your phrases such as "wennie roast", "toast," "roast" and "fricassee" forever are terms I beliecve no honest student of the Bible should use.

But that's what you believe isn't it?

The above can only excite prejudice and ill-feelings. They mock God and His word.

No they don't! Those words are used with the clear intent to show how ludicrous the idea is that the wicked live forever in torment and the inconsistency related to scripture.

They do not have any rightful place in a discussion of God's word regardless of the view one takes.They are intended to instill in others a belief that those who hold an understanding of the scripture opposite of yours believe God rejoices in the death of the wicked, even though I have supplied you with at least 3 passages from the 1st three chapters of Provbers that God indeed does not "take pleasure" in the end of the wicked.

Not at all! Again, I use these words to show how how ludicrous the idea is that the wicked live forever in torment and the inconsistency related to scripture. I am fully aware that the mercy and goodness of God doesn't cook the wicked alive for eternity for a few years of indiscretion.

Rather, you seriously need to address Rev.14:11 (which passage I told you wall all one needs to overturn your doctrine, and there are many more) which reads: "AND THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT ASCENDS FOREVER AND EVER; AND THEY HAVE NO REST DAY OR NIGHT, WHO WORSHIP THE BEAST AND HIS IMAGE, AND WOEVER RECEIVES THE MARK OF HIS NAME.' Enough of wennie roasts and fricassee (which is to fry in its own juice), Tell us what Rev.14:11 means if it does not mean what it says!

In conjunction with verse 10 it is painfully obvious is it not? What ascends? The smoke. Of what? Their torment. Where does this torment originate from? From being in the presence of the Holy Angels and the Lamb. Thus it is obvious the scripture is not saying that the smoke of the burning wicked goes up forever but rather their "torment."

Psa 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: [this shall be] the portion of their cup.

As for Adam the answer is easy when one has studied the word "death" and "die" in the Bible, and Adam did die the day he ate.

It is a common misconception that Adam "died spiritually" the day he sinned. But obviously that isn't true considering that both he and Eve were continuously blessed by God even after they sinned and that he obviously taught his sons about worshiping and sacrificing to the Lord.

I do not suppose "death" and "die" are part of this thread. If you wish to discuss it on the debate forum let it be known.

Adam didn't die until he was 930 years old. A day with the Lord is as a thousand years.

2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

It is obvious then that Adam, nor any other man, has lived a "day" with the Lord.

 

[dadof10]

In conjunction with verse 10 it is painfully obvious is it not? What ascends? The smoke. Of what? Their torment. Where does this torment originate from? From being in the presence of the Holy Angels and the Lamb. Thus it is obvious the scripture is not saying that the smoke of the burning wicked goes up forever but rather their "torment."

So they are being tormented forever? Doesn't the above admission wreck the case you are trying to make, that the wicked are "burned up", that eventually the fire goes out for lack of fuel? The word, as you admit above, is FOREVER, it means neverending, therefore no end to the torment, no end to the "fuel".

 

[RND]

So they are being tormented forever? Doesn't the above admission wreck the case you are trying to make, that the wicked are "burned up", that eventually the fire goes out for lack of fuel?

No, not at all and in fact it substantiates the view that once the "fire is out" that is once the wicked are no longer in the presence of that which causes the flames, the Lamb and the Holy Angels, their "torment" ascends forever.

Being that they are no longer in the presences of Jesus means that they are no longer "in the light" and it is that light that sustains life.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

It is fairly obvious from scripture that the "light" that is provided emanates from the Lamb, Jesus. It is that light that destroys those who know they are unworthy to be apart of it.

The word, as you admit above, is FOREVER, it means neverending, therefore no end to the torment, no end to the "fuel".

The torment is forever (as in permanent), not the torment "ing."

 

[dadof10]

No, not at all and in fact it substantiates the view that once the "fire is out" that is once the wicked are no longer in the presence of that which causes the flames, the Lamb and the Holy Angels, their "torment" ascends forever.

What??? How does this happen?

Being that they are no longer in the presences of Jesus means that they are no longer "in the light" and it is that light that sustains life.

Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

These verses are taken out of context and do not prove your point in the least. Can you find any verses that claim that once out of the "light of Christ" the soul ceases to exist?

It is fairly obvious from scripture that the "light" that is provided emanates from the Lamb, Jesus. It is that light that destroys those who know they are unworthy to be apart of it.

I agree with you on this point. When the Damned are brought into the presence of the all Holy God, they are "tortured" simply because they didn't allow God to transform them into beings capable of enjoying His presence (e.g. Heaven) while on earth. Where we disagree is that this torment leads to the annihilation of the soul.

The torment is forever (as in permanent), not the torment "ing."

How is that possible? What do you mean?

 

[RND]

What??? How does this happen?

Ever put a camp fire out? That said we must keep in mind that this is 'metaphorical' and not 'literal.'

These verses are taken out of context and do not prove your point in the least.

Taken out of context? You are kidding right? God is always seen as light, not darkness.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Can you find any verses that claim that once out of the "light of Christ" the soul ceases to exist?

Sure.

Luk 1:79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and [in] the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 9:5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now [are ye] light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

God is Light, no darkness. Those that are in 'darkness' are walking in the shadow of death.

I agree with you on this point. When the Damned are brought into the presence of the all Holy God, they are "tortured" simply because they didn't allow God to transform them into beings capable of enjoying His presence (e.g. Heaven) while on earth. Where we disagree is that this torment leads to the annihilation of the soul.

Are these wicked then always left in the "presence of the Lord" so they can be continually tormented by His presence?

How is that possible? What do you mean?

Just what I said. The torment is forever (as in permanent), not the torment "ing." The "torment" is the result of a permanent declaration of "punishment."

You're a dad of 10 (whew!) let me see if I can explain this to you in relation to your children.

Say one of you kids does something they shouldn't and you take away the car on prom night. Bummer! No wheels on prom night. The punishment and torment of your kid will last a lifetime for them, but maybe not you. They will forever remember the thing they did wrong that caused them to lose car privilege for a prom night. That punishment is permanent, it won't change. But the "punishing" the actual taking away the car for a night is not (unless of course you restrict your kids driving privilege forever, or at least until you die). Do you see the difference?

 

[duval]

HI PAIDION: "ages of ages" sounds like a form of purgatory. Nothing for RND to be happy about as he believefs hell is the grave and its occupants are not concious.

I believe the scripture teaches the duration of the wicked and righteous are without length.

 

[duval]

RND WROTE OF REV>14:10.11: 'In conjunction with verse 10 is it not? What ascends? The smoke. Of what? Their torment. Where does this torment originate from? From being in the presence of the Holy angels and the Lamb. Thus it is obvious the scripture is not saying that the smoke of the burning wicked goes up forever but rather their torment." WRONG as usual RND. The passage says its from the "fire and brimstone", Not the presence of the Lamb. You conviently keep forgettng that God's presence is everywhere, PS.139. And why "smoke of their tormet" if the wicked have been anihilated? And, if the grave be hell for the wicked, and they have been anihilated, then nothing to torment, nothing to smoke, tell us why they have no rest day or night forever. You need try again RND. I told you one passage would do it. Yes, the wicked must be conscious if they have no rest forever.

RND WOTE: "It is a common misconception thatr dam 'died spiritually' the day he sinned. But obviously isn't true considering that both he and Eve were continuously blessed by God even after they sinned---" God said they would die the day they ate. I choose to believe God rather than RND. Choose you this day whom you believe!! Regarding God blessing Adam and Eve adfter they age the fruit, did not Jesus say: "---HE MAKES HIS SUN RISE ON THE EVIL AND ON THE GOOD, AND SENDS RAIN ON THE JUST AND THE UNJUST"????

Of 11 Pet.3:8, my understanding of "day" is that time with God is not as time with man.

RND WROTE: "The torment is forever (as in permanent), not the torment "ing." Well, well, thank you RND. RND has now admitted the proof of my text, that "torment" is forever, even "permanent" as he puts it. Told you that verse would bite you. Try again, put your shoulder to it, give it your best

And RND what is so important to you about Lk. 16:31?