Hell Fire

[RND]

Could we please remove the "Catholic doctrinal" teaching from this thread in that it is a violation of the stated rules of the forum. Thanks.

"Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum only. Do not start new topics or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature."

 

[duval]

RND on 11:26-08 @ 10:49a wrote to me: "How about just answering the question I asked duval? Is Jesus in hell watching people get tormented? Yes or no? I have answered this but for your benefit will rehearse what the scripture says. Ezek:33:11: ''AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD GOD, I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF THE WICKED,---" Again: EZEK.18:23: ''DO I HAVE ANY PLEASURE AT ALL THAT THE WICKED SHOULD DIE?" And again: EZEK.18:32: ''FOR I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF ONE WHO DIES---''One of your purposes has been to get me in a position of appearing to believe God rejoices in the death of the wicked. I have now provided you with 3 statements of scrpture where He does not.
Now, lets talk about the presence of the Lamb at the time . Again you try to position me as appearing that the Lamb waits and enjoys such death and punishment. I shall not attempt to speculate on this as others but simply repeat what scripture says.
1. In the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb---Rev.14:10,`11
2. In the presence of God---Ps.68:2
In addition I have supplied you with Ps.139 which clearly teaches one cannot escape the presence of God. I have simply proveded the scripture. I believe it. Speculate if you chose.

All this talk about God being too loving to send any to hell looks very on the surface when one takes into consideration that in Ezek. 18 the people said God was unfair. In turn He told the people they were unfair. I shall believe what God said.

 

[RND]

RND on 11:26-08 @ 10:49a wrote to me: "How about just answering the question I asked duval? Is Jesus in hell watching people get tormented? Yes or no? I have answered this but for your benefit will rehearse what the scripture says. Ezek:33:11: ''AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD GOD, I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF THE WICKED,---" Again: EZEK.18:23: ''DO I HAVE ANY PLEASURE AT ALL THAT THE WICKED SHOULD DIE?" And again: EZEK.18:32: ''FOR I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF ONE WHO DIES---''One of your purposes has been to get me in a position of appearing to believe God rejoices in the death of the wicked. I have now provided you with 3 statements of scrpture where He does not.
Now, lets talk about the presence of the Lamb at the time . Again you try to position me as appearing that the Lamb waits and enjoys such death and punishment. I shall not attempt to speculate on this as others but simply repeat what scripture says.
1. In the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb---Rev.14:10,`11
2. In the presence of God---Ps.68:2
In addition I have supplied you with Ps.139 which clearly teaches one cannot escape the presence of God. I have simply proveded the scripture. I believe it. Speculate if you chose.

All this talk about God being too loving to send any to hell looks very on the surface when one takes into consideration that in Ezek. 18 the people said God was unfair. In turn He told the people they were unfair. I shall believe what God said.

How about just answering the question I asked duval? Is Jesus in hell watching people get tormented? Yes or no?

 

[RND]

RND on 11:26-08 @ 10:49a wrote to me: "How about just answering the question I asked duval? Is Jesus in hell watching people get tormented? Yes or no? I have answered this but for your benefit will rehearse what the scripture says. Ezek:33:11: ''AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD GOD, I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF THE WICKED,---" Again: EZEK.18:23: ''DO I HAVE ANY PLEASURE AT ALL THAT THE WICKED SHOULD DIE?" And again: EZEK.18:32: ''FOR I HAVE NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF ONE WHO DIES---''One of your purposes has been to get me in a position of appearing to believe God rejoices in the death of the wicked. I have now provided you with 3 statements of scrpture where He does not.

Do these verses say the wicked die or that the wicked are cooked alive and tortured forever?

Now, lets talk about the presence of the Lamb at the time . Again you try to position me as appearing that the Lamb waits and enjoys such death and punishment. I shall not attempt to speculate on this as others but simply repeat what scripture says.
1. In the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb---Rev.14:10,`11

Are the wicked being tortured in the presence of Jesus and the angels? Yes or no. What is so are about answering yes or no?

2. In the presence of God---Ps.68:2

Psa 68:2 As smoke is driven away, [so] drive [them] away: as wax melteth before the fire, [so] let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

The wicked "perish" they aren't tormented.

Perish = abad = a primitive root; properly, to wander away, i.e. lose oneself; by implication to perish (causative, destroy):--break, destroy(- uction), + not escape, fail, lose, (cause to, make) perish, spend, X and surely, take, be undone, X utterly, be void of, have no way to flee.

The wicked "wander away" from God causing them to perish.

In addition I have supplied you with Ps.139 which clearly teaches one cannot escape the presence of God. I have simply proveded the scripture. I believe it. Speculate if you chose.

Does Psalms 139 say the wicked die or that the wicked are cooked alive and tortured forever?

All this talk about God being too loving to send any to hell looks very on the surface when one takes into consideration that in Ezek. 18 the people said God was unfair. In turn He told the people they were unfair. I shall believe what God said.

Strawman. The discussion isn't whether God is unfair the discussion centers around whether God tortures.

 

[St Francis]

Could we please remove the "Catholic doctrinal" teaching from this thread in that it is a violation of the stated rules of the forum. Thanks.

"Discussion of Catholic doctrine will be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum only. Do not start new topics or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is Catholic in nature."

Its nice to have an uneven playing field slanted in your favor, isn't it. Well, I suppose you need it.

 

[duval]

RND said on 11-26-08 @@12:35p: Verses 10 through 12 say duval that the wicked are devoured by flame no 'dwelling' in it." RND, the Septugiant, the one Jesus most often used when quoting the OT and to my mind at least has His stamp of approval on it, again I say the Septugiant does not have the word "dwell" in it.
RND said I responded to only one questions he had asked of TURNORBUR. Correct, but in my post I stated that the same scriptures would applly to the second question as to the first and I saw no need to duplicate. However, I shall be pleased to rehearse for you.
Question # 1. "If you can"t imagine using force, fear, intimidation or manipuladtion to make other people you what makes you think the Creator of love uses force fefar, intimadations?" Now RND, I extracted FORCE, INTIMIDATION AND MANIPULATIONS from your question because we both agree God does not use such. But you accused me of leaving out "fear," Not so, because the passages I gave relate to it, please note again: ROM.2:5: ''BUT AFTER THKY HARDNESS AND IMPENITENT HEART TREASUREST UP UNTO THYSELF WRATH AGAINST THE DAY OF WRATH AND REVELATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT OF GOD WHO WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS." Strong language! Might generate some fear in honest hearts! Or again: ''FOR WE MUST ALL APPEAR BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; THAT EVERY ONE MAY RECEIVE THE THINGS DONE IN HIS BODY, ACCORDING TO T HAT HE HATH DONE, WHETHER IT BE GOOD OF BAD.'' Pretty strong!! Ought to stir up some fear in honest hearts!!

Of the above you said: "Do these verses say anything about continual torture forever." NO, and we both know it. Don't try to dodge. Those passages had to do with "fear" as a means God uses, not future punishment I think you know that.
Question # 2: ''Would it be love if you threatened your wife or other loved one with a threat such as, "love me or I'll smash you in he face?" RND, I do not like or accept the wording of your 2nd question in trying to make us appear that we think God acts in such a fashion, but as a warning to the wicked to urge him to turn from his way I cite you the scriptures used to answer your 1st question.

 

[RND]

Its nice to have an uneven playing field slanted in your favor, isn't it. Well, I suppose you need it.

I didn't make the rules of the forum and if I had my druthers I'd let you post all the false doctrine of pagan origin you wanted to.

That said, we should be willing and able to use the Bible and Bible only as our guide in this discussion. That fact that you can't or won't and have to resort to the use the teachings of some church of obvious pagan origin should come as little surprise to anyone and most likely explains the motivation of those in control of the board.

The fact is you should be glad most so-called "protestants" are in line with the pagan doctrines that hold that man is immortal without God.

 

[duval]

RND on 11-26-08 asked me in regard to Isa.33:10: Is this any different than anywhere else in the scriptures where is demonstrates the wicked being "destroyed" o "burned up?"" I will cite you to Rev.14:10,11 of which I said all I needed to overturn your doctrine was one verse. I shall get around to it yet.
Now, RND, lets go back to Lk.16. You believe it to be a parable, I do not. I had hoped to probe Lk.16 deeper but we had other distractions. So I now ask you, if its a parable, what does it teach?

 

[RND]

RND on 11-26-08 asked me in regard to Isa.33:10: Is this any different than anywhere else in the scriptures where is demonstrates the wicked being "destroyed" o "burned up?"" I will cite you to Rev.14:10,11 of which I said all I needed to overturn your doctrine was one verse. I shall get around to it yet.
Now, RND, lets go back to Lk.16. You believe it to be a parable, I do not. I had hoped to probe Lk.16 deeper but we had other distractions. So I now ask you, if its a parable, what does it teach?

This has been already been discussed in the thread duval. You'll have to re-read the thread to gain the valuable knowledge that verse 31 makes available to you.

 

[duval]

RND wrote to me:''How about just answering the queston I asked duval? Is Jesus in hell watching people get tormented? Yes or no? " RND I gave you Ps.68.2 ; Rev.14:10,11 which speak of (1) the holy angels, (2) the Lamb and (God). Argue with God if you will. I shall not speculate.

RND wrote to me: "Do these verses say the wicked die or that the wicked are cooked alive and tortured forever?" First of all RND I resent your thought "cooked". If you wish to discuss scripture do so with scriptural language, not language with which you try to stir up prejudice. And, yes, those passages say the wicked die, and no, they do not say anything about torment. But, Rev.14:10,11 and others which can be introduced do. And when we get to the subject of "die" I shall discuss the Bible view of death.

RND wrote"tHE WICKED "PERISH" THEY ARN'T TORMENTED." RND, Rev.14:10,11 says they are "tormented." Argue with God about that one to if you wish. Deny it. Rationalize it. Explain it away if you can, Rev.14:10,11 says "tormented." Some people now adays think they know more about it than GOD!
RND wrote"Does Ps.139 say the wicked die or that the wicked are cooked alive and tortured forever? Neither, it says as I have pointed out that one cannot escape the "presence" of God. But Rev.14:10,11 says tormented forever. And again I am offended that anyone would use "cooked alive" to stir up prejudice.
RND wrote "Strawman. The discussion isn't whether God is unfair the discussion ceenters around whether God tortures." Yes, and you have said in effect that God is too loving to send one to such a place forever. I Gave you scripture in Ezek. for it. Now, tear doen that strawman if you can.
Well RND I'll be away for a while again, but like the Terminator, "I'll be back."

 

[RND]

RND said on 11-26-08 @@12:35p: Verses 10 through 12 say duval that the wicked are devoured by flame no 'dwelling' in it." RND, the Septugiant, the one Jesus most often used when quoting the OT and to my mind at least has His stamp of approval on it, again I say the Septugiant does not have the word "dwell" in it.

The Septuagint version is no different in meaning from the original Hebrew:

Is 33:10 Now will I arise, saith the Lord, now will I be glorified; now will I be exalted. 11 Now shall ye see, now shall ye perceive; the strength of your breath, shall be vain; fire shall devour you. 12 And the nations shall be burnt up; as a thorn in the field cast out and burnt up.

13 They that are afar off shall hear what I have done; they that draw nigh shall know my strength. 14 The sinners in Sion have departed; trembling shall seize the ungodly. Who will tell you that a fire is kindled? Who will tell you of the eternal place?

15 He that walks in righteousness, speaking rightly, hating transgression and iniquity, and shaking his hands from gifts, stopping his ears that he should not hear the judgment of blood, shutting his eyes that he should not see injustice. 16 he shall dwell in a high cave of a strong rock: bread shall be given him, and his water shall be sure. 17 Ye shall see a king with glory: your eyes shall behold a land from afar.

RND said I responded to only one questions he had asked of TURNORBUR. Correct, but in my post I stated that the same scriptures would applly to the second question as to the first and I saw no need to duplicate. However, I shall be pleased to rehearse for you.

That's great duval.

Question # 1. "If you can"t imagine using force, fear, intimidation or manipuladtion to make other people you what makes you think the Creator of love uses force fefar, intimadations?" Now RND, I extracted FORCE, INTIMIDATION AND MANIPULATIONS from your question because we both agree God does not use such.

How then does God use fear? Can someone feel love for someone or something that they are afraid of? Can another human for example be made to love someone they are fearful of through the work of continual fear?

But you accused me of leaving out "fear," Not so, because the passages I gave relate to it, please note again: ROM.2:5: ''BUT AFTER THKY HARDNESS AND IMPENITENT HEART TREASUREST UP UNTO THYSELF WRATH AGAINST THE DAY OF WRATH AND REVELATION OF THE RIGHTEOUS JUDGEMENT OF GOD WHO WILL RENDER TO EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS." Strong language! Might generate some fear in honest hearts!

Romans 2:5 says nothing about the fearful being forced into loving God but in reality says that those that judge others have stored up the treasure of wrath of God.

I also noticed you used the word "might" to describe something that may happen. I think it would do well to try and find any scriptures that conclusively demonstrate that love is born from fear.

List Audio, Study Tools, Commentaries
No Images or Hymns AvailableVersions / TranslationsDictionary Aids
1Cr 13:4 Charity suffereth long, [and] is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, 5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; 6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; 7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. 8 Charity never faileth:

Love is not born from fear or fright. If God is love then 1 Corinthians 13 paints a completely different picture of love than love based on fear.

Or again: ''FOR WE MUST ALL APPEAR BEFORE THE JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST; THAT EVERY ONE MAY RECEIVE THE THINGS DONE IN HIS BODY, ACCORDING TO T HAT HE HATH DONE, WHETHER IT BE GOOD OF BAD.'' Pretty strong!! Ought to stir up some fear in honest hearts!!

Why? The only one's in a department store that have to be "afraid" of the surveillance cameras are the thieves not those that aren't stealing. Conversely why would I need to be afraid of God or His judgment if I know I haven't done anything that I can't talked to Him about or bring to Him for discussion?

Of the above you said: "Do these verses say anything about continual torture forever." NO, and we both know it. Don't try to dodge. Those passages had to do with "fear" as a means God uses, not future punishment I think you know that.

But again "fear" can not be a motive for love. No where in scripture are we given a picture of love being forced by fear. Jesus, who is our example, never used fear to force others to love Him.

Question # 2: ''Would it be love if you threatened your wife or other loved one with a threat such as, "love me or I'll smash you in he face?" RND, I do not like or accept the wording of your 2nd question in trying to make us appear that we think God acts in such a fashion, but as a warning to the wicked to urge him to turn from his way I cite you the scriptures used to answer your 1st question.

So obviously duval you don't think God says "love me or I'll smash your face." I agree I see no where in the life of Christ where love is attempted to be obtain by fear. Why then do you see God saying, "love me or I'll torture you forever?"

And I'm sorry you don't like the question. Love would certainly provide a warning of impending danger to those that are loved. But threats of harm or torture are nor a sign of love but a threat which is not how love operates.

A man that loves his children doesn't yell, "don't play in the street or I'll burn you with a hot iron." A man that loves his children yell, "don't play in the street, you could get hurt."

"I'll burn you with a hot iron" is a threat. "You could get hurt" is a warning out of concern.

 

[RND]

RND wrote to me:''How about just answering the queston I asked duval? Is Jesus in hell watching people get tormented? Yes or no? " RND I gave you Ps.68.2 ; Rev.14:10,11 which speak of (1) the holy angels, (2) the Lamb and (God). Argue with God if you will. I shall not speculate.

It seems like such an easy question to answer duval. And yet your answer is typical and one I have seen plenty of times by advocates of the pagan idea of eternal torture.

RND wrote to me: "Do these verses say the wicked die or that the wicked are cooked alive and tortured forever?" First of all RND I resent your thought "cooked". If you wish to discuss scripture do so with scriptural language, not language with which you try to stir up prejudice.

Sorry if you don't like the characterization that God tortures people forever which is the equivalent of "cooking" them, I'm afraid that is something that you'll have to overcome. I suppose the reason that "cooking" doesn't bother me is that God in not unmerciful and uncaring and in turn will resort to torture to punish folks.

And, yes, those passages say the wicked die, and no, they do not say anything about torment. But, Rev.14:10,11 and others which can be introduced do. And when we get to the subject of "die" I shall discuss the Bible view of death.

So you agree then the passages you cited say nothing of torture. So why'd you cite them as if they did?

RND wrote"tHE WICKED "PERISH" THEY ARN'T TORMENTED." RND, Rev.14:10,11 says they are "tormented." Argue with God about that one to if you wish. Deny it. Rationalize it. Explain it away if you can, Rev.14:10,11 says "tormented." Some people now adays think they know more about it than GOD!

Are they "tormented" from being in the presence of the Holy Angels and the Lamb or are they "tormented" in flames and burned forever?

RND wrote"Does Ps.139 say the wicked die or that the wicked are cooked alive and tortured forever? Neither, it says as I have pointed out that one cannot escape the "presence" of God. But Rev.14:10,11 says tormented forever. And again I am offended that anyone would use "cooked alive" to stir up prejudice.

Again, what is the cause of the torment? Is it the "presence of the Holy Angels and the Lamb?"

RND wrote "Strawman. The discussion isn't whether God is unfair the discussion ceenters around whether God tortures." Yes, and you have said in effect that God is too loving to send one to such a place forever. I Gave you scripture in Ezek. for it. Now, tear doen that strawman if you can. Well RND I'll be away for a while again, but like the Terminator, "I'll be back."

Nothing in Ezekiel 33 suggests God tortures anyone forever, it says the wicked die. I am certainly not suggesting "sin" isn't punished, it most certainly is. Sin leads to death but the gift of God is eternal life through His Son. Eternal life in flames and being continuously cooked and roasted is not a gift, it's torture. Nothing in the scripture about eternal torture.

 

[Paidion]

The apostle Paul wrote 12 letters to the churches (or 13 if you believe Paul wrote Hebrews), all of which form part of our New Testaments. In these letters, Paul gives many strong warnings against sin and its consequences. However, Paul does not warn people about going to hell even once. Indeed he does not use the word "hell" in any of his letters.

Surely eternal torment in hell would be a matter of top priority for Paul if he believed in it. Why would he fail to warn people about it?

 

[duval]

RND wrote: "Rom.2:5 says nothing about the fearful being forced into loving God---" RND I think you know your statement is a dodge. I removed "force" among other things from your question to TURNORBURN. You know that I have said God does not force anyone. Yet you must have "force" in there to shore up a false doctrine and misrepresent.
RND wrote: "I thionk it would do well to try to find any scriptures that conclusively demonstdrate that love is born of fear." Again a misrepresentation. That "love is born or fear" is not something I have postulated. Yet thatis another thing you use to shore up your belief. My position is that God does use fear to warn man to turn from sin. But how about this passage:''FEAR THE LORD AND DEPART FROM EVIL" PROV. 3:7.Or, ''THEN THEY WILL CALL ON ME, BUT I WILL NOT ANSWER; THKEY WILL SEEK ME DILIGENTLY, BUT THKEY WILL NOT FIND ME. BECAUSE THEY HATED KKNOWLEDGE AND DID NOT CHOOSE THE FEAR OF THE LORD,---" Prov. 1:28,29. Or, ''THEN YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THE FFEAR OF THE LORD, AND FIND THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD.'' Prov.2:5. Or, go to the begining of the book, Prov.1:7, ''THE FEAR OF THE LORD IS THE BEGINNING OF KNOWLEGE, BUT FOOLS DESPISE WISDOM AND INSTRUCTION." Other passages could be given, yet you tell us that "fear" has no place in in the scheme of redemption.

RND wrote: "Again, what is the cause of the torment? Is it the "presence of the Holy angels and the Lamb?" Now, you have admitted there is torment. For your answer, read Rev.14:10,11. And again, I gave you what the Bible said. I will not speculate, the answer I gave from the scripture is good enough for me even though it isn't for some.

 

[RND]

The apostle Paul wrote 12 letters to the churches (or 13 if you believe Paul wrote Hebrews), all of which form part of our New Testaments. In these letters, Paul gives many strong warnings against sin and its consequences. However, Paul does not warn people about going to hell even once. Indeed he does not use the word "hell" in any of his letters.

Surely eternal torment in hell would be a matter of top priority for Paul if he believed in it. Why would he fail to warn people about it?

Thanks Paidon for your insight into this topic. I have yet to see any of the other prophets in the Bible discuss the fate of the wicked as "roasting" forever in hell. Frankly, it's all God's fault if we look at things objectively.

He told Adam that if Adam disobeyed he would die, not burn forever in the flames of an eternal wennie roast. I think God could have cleared things up right from the beginning by saying to Adam that if you disobey me you'll roast, toast and fricassee forever.

 

[Free]

I haven't been following this thread so some of this might be mentioned earlier but I noticed a couple of things.

He told Adam that if Adam disobeyed he would die, not burn forever in the flames of an eternal wennie roast. I think God could have cleared things up right from the beginning by saying to Adam that if you disobey me you'll roast, toast and fricassee forever.

Strawman.

Surely eternal torment in hell would be a matter of top priority for Paul if he believed in it. Why would he fail to warn people about it?

Jesus mentioned it and warned strongly about going there. Why do you fail to mention that?

 

[dadof10]

That said, we should be willing and able to use the Bible and Bible only as our guide in this discussion.

Why? Jesus and the Apostles didn't operate that way, why should we?

 

[Rick W]

A "Sola Scriptura" debate is not going to happen here.
May I suggest the One on One Debate forum? Then the subject can be discussed.
thank you

 

[dadof10]

The apostle Paul wrote 12 letters to the churches (or 13 if you believe Paul wrote Hebrews), all of which form part of our New Testaments. In these letters, Paul gives many strong warnings against sin and its consequences. However, Paul does not warn people about going to hell even once. Indeed he does not use the word "hell" in any of his letters.

Surely eternal torment in hell would be a matter of top priority for Paul if he believed in it. Why would he fail to warn people about it?

Because he didn't write it down doesn't mean he didn't teach it. He didn't teach AGAINST it either. Paul taught for years and personally visited these Churches many times. Certainly, he preached other things that he didn't write. This is what he meant by "So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter. (2Thessalonians (RSV) 2)

 

[duval]

PAIDION WROTE: "paul does not warn people about going to hell even once. Indeed he does not use the word 'hell' in any of his letters."
FREE made a good point in that Jesus certaintly did talk about hell. It was Paul who said:"God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of Christ." If Christ was his glory, and Christ traught it why should he not have taught it? But, he did. Do you require the word "hell" to be in the text of Paul? Will its equivalent suffice? If so, there are several, for example I Tim.6:9: ''BUT THOSE WHO DESIRE TO BE RICH FALL INTO TEMPTATION AND A SNARE, AND INTO MANY FOOLISH AND HARMFUL LUSTS WHICH DROWN MEN IN DESTRUCTION AND PERDITION." The word "perdition" in Greek, the koine, of which you have studied as even eternal misery. Thus one example of Paul using the subject and a word which meant "eternal" and "misery." And that doesn't help RND who was so thankful for your post.