Hell is a PLACE

[KevinK]

How the wheel turns. The earliest readings of scripture made no bones about it, Hell was a physical place of torment and suffering. Later, more "progressive" interpretations explained Hell as solely a state of the soul in eternal separation from God the Father. A recent Pope even issued a statement confirming this explanation. There are still some who argue this position.

The separation from God is surely the worst of the torments, but this does not negate the physical suffering. The original interpretation is correct after all; Hell is both a place of suffering and a state of spiritual misery. You have some kind of spiritual body in Hell, and it is put through the ringer.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."​

I know this not only from my reading of Matthew 10:28, but because I have been there. In my 30s I had an out-of-body experience (called a "vision" in the OT) and physically visited that awful place. I didn't see much of it, but I was there and I saw enough. I even know where it is (center of the earth). Argue with me if you wish, but I was there.

 

[JLB]

How the wheel turns. The earliest readings of scripture made no bones about it, Hell was a physical place of torment and suffering. Later, more "progressive" interpretations explained Hell as solely a state of the soul in eternal separation from God the Father. A recent Pope even issued a statement confirming this explanation. There are still some who argue this position.

The separation from God is surely the worst of the torments, but this does not negate the physical suffering. The original interpretation is correct after all; Hell is both a place of suffering and a state of spiritual misery. You have some kind of spiritual body in Hell, and it is put through the ringer.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."​

I know this not only from my reading of Matthew 10:28, but because I have been there. In my 30s I had an out-of-body experience (called a "vision" in the OT) and physically visited that awful place. I didn't see much of it, but I was there and I saw enough. I even know where it is (center of the earth). Argue with me if you wish, but I was there.

Of course hell is a literal place of torment and misery, with a literal fire.

Thank God that Jesus Christ paid the price for our sins, on the cross, and went down there, so we wouldn't have to, if we believe the Gospel.

Thank God for His amazing grace!!!

Thank God for His mercy.

You won't get any argument from me brother.

Please share about your experience if you like.


JLB

 

[KevinK]

I actually gave out my whole story in another thread, but basically this whole spiritual adventure happened to me involving a journey to Hawaii, an all-night session with a Japanese Christian guru, and the actual OBE. I went only to the outermost level of Hell, where ironically there is only emotional pain (from the separation from God), and little or no physical pain. But the thing is, I was still in a specific geographical place, not just "floating" amorphously. I even remember travelling down though the earth to get there, and passing through a gate of Hell.

I can't confirm the other stuff, like demons and a lake of fire and torture chambers, because I didn't see them. I wasn't allowed beyond the first level, which I call the "Outer Darkness" (some people use this term to refer to all of Hell). But I have no doubt that I would have seen those things had I gone through the next door, and other people have certainly seen them who have had visions.

 

[KevinK]

"Rather than a physical place, hell is the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy."

This is a quote from a papal address made in 1999. He went on to explain that the imagery of hell in the Bible is symbolic only, and not to be taken literally. You can read the complete transcription http://totus2us.com/vocation/jpii-c...ry/hell-is-the-state-of-those-who-reject-god/

I put it out that saying things like this is not only misleading, but downright sinful. You endanger not only your own soul, but those of anyone who would listen to you. I feel very strongly about this. Hell is a real place, I know, I've been there.

 

[Butch5]

How the wheel turns. The earliest readings of scripture made no bones about it, Hell was a physical place of torment and suffering. Later, more "progressive" interpretations explained Hell as solely a state of the soul in eternal separation from God the Father. A recent Pope even issued a statement confirming this explanation. There are still some who argue this position.

The separation from God is surely the worst of the torments, but this does not negate the physical suffering. The original interpretation is correct after all; Hell is both a place of suffering and a state of spiritual misery. You have some kind of spiritual body in Hell, and it is put through the ringer.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."​

I know this not only from my reading of Matthew 10:28, but because I have been there. In my 30s I had an out-of-body experience (called a "vision" in the OT) and physically visited that awful place. I didn't see much of it, but I was there and I saw enough. I even know where it is (center of the earth). Argue with me if you wish, but I was there.

Sorry, but that's not what earliest readings of Scripture teach. It's not what the Scriptures teach at all.

 

[KevinK]

Sorry, but that's not what earliest readings of Scripture teach. It's not what the Scriptures teach at all.

Just to clarify, I did not mean the readings of the earliest scripture, but the early readings of current scripture.

It really doesn't matter any way. The only thing that matters is whether you now believe that Hell is a physical place.

 

[Butch5]

Just to clarify, I did not mean the readings of the earliest scripture, but the early readings of current scripture.

It really doesn't matter any way. The only thing that matters is whether you now believe that Hell is a physical place.

The early readings of current Scripture? The word hell is used to translate 3 different locations in the Scriptures. There is Hades, the grave, Gehenna a location outside of Jerusalem, that John refers to as the Lake of Fire, and Tartarus when the angels are held.

 

[KevinK]

The early readings of current Scripture? The word hell is used to translate 3 different locations in the Scriptures. There is Hades, the grave, Gehenna a location outside of Jerusalem, that John refers to as the Lake of Fire, and Tartarus when the angels are held.

Whatever. The takeaway from this thread is in the title. I'm trying to save souls.

I know all about the various terms used to describe hell in the Bible. How many have you personally been to?

 

[Butch5]

Whatever. The takeaway from this thread is in the title. I'm trying to save souls.

I know all about the various terms used to describe hell in the Bible. How many have you personally been to?

Well, I'm still alive so that leaves out Hades. I've not been to Jerusalem so that leaves out Gehenna and Tartarus is reserved for angles and I'm not an angel, so, none.

 

[JohnDB]

OK guys... subscribing

 

[LovethroughDove]

Hell is a real place, I know, I've been there.

Agree with you 100%. Most accounts I've heard, people are descending down into the earth.

Ephesians 4:9What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions?

Revelation 1:18 I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

 

[for_his_glory]

We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of eternal fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration.

 

[JohnDB]

How does God's omniscience fit into all of this

 

[for_his_glory]

How does God's omniscience fit into all of this

Not sure who you are talking to, but God's omniscience is the knowledge He gives us in all our understanding of what hell is as we study His word.

 

[JohnDB]

Not sure who you are talking to, but God's omniscience is the knowledge He gives us in all our understanding of what hell is as we study His word.

It was for anyone.
Just a general question.
And my phone substituted omniscience for omnipresence and I didn't notice.

Sorry about that.

But if there is somewhere that God is not...that's a massive chink in the armor.

 

[KevinK]

How does God's omnipresence fit into all of this

Hell is the one place He isn't.

Hell is the one place carved out of the universe that He has withdrawn His presence. Originally created as a prison for the angels who rebelled from His rule, it also serves double-duty for foolhardy humans who reject His benevolence. People who choose to have nothing to do with God get to go to a place that indeed is devoid of Him. God withdraws his attributes from this place, and that is what you experience there. Instead of love, hate. Instead of mercy, cruelty. Instead of joy, pain. Instead of beauty, ugliness. Instead of fulfillment, depression. Hell is a void in every sense. The single exception is the application of God's wrath, which is in the form of hell's fires.

 

[KevinK]

We have always been taught hell is a place where non-believers in God go to for eternity, but according to scripture this is not what hell is. Hell is described as the world of the dead, a place where the departed go that have died as being lowered in a grave/pit. There they are kept until the return of Christ to either stand in Gods Great White Throne judgment for those who are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life, Rev 20:11-15, or those who have died in Christ that will stand in his judgment to give an account for the things done here on earth, 2 Corinthians 5:10.

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Strong's Exhausted Concordance: Hell
Hebrew # 7585 Sheol, Hades, or the world of the dead, grave, hell, pit
Greek # 86 place of departed souls, grave, hell
Greek # 1067 Gehenna, the Valley of the sons of Hinnom South of Jerusalem, figuratively and literal of place of punishment.

The English word hell, back in 1611, meant about the same as Hades, that being covered or unseen as in grave/pit. We do not see those in the grave as they are unseen to the eye as they are covered with dirt, or some placed in a tomb. The word hell is derived from the Saxon helan, to cover, and signifying merely the covered, or invisible place. The habitation of those who have gone from the visible terrestrial region to the world of spirits.

Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of eternal fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration.

This is an odd little point that I am just coming to terms with. The Hell that currently exists is not technically forever, though we sometimes say it is. We know from Revelation that on the day of the great white throne judgment, Hell will be thrown into a huge lake of fire (this is different from the small lake of fire that is in the current Hell, obviously bigger but also hotter). So I guess you can say once you're in Hell it's forever, even though your zip code will eventually change, you'll still be in Hell (no-one knows where the big LOF is).

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20: 11-15

 

[for_his_glory]

This is an odd little point that I am just coming to terms with. The Hell that currently exists is not technically forever, though we sometimes say it is. We know from Revelation that on the day of the great white throne judgment, Hell will be thrown into a huge lake of fire (this is different from the small lake of fire that is in the current Hell, obviously bigger but also hotter). So I guess you can say once you're in Hell it's forever, even though your zip code will eventually change, you'll still be in Hell (no-one knows where the big LOF is).

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20: 11-15

There is only one lake of fire as hell means the grave/pit we are literally buried in. The lake of fire spoken of in Rev is where Satan, the beast and the false prophet are first cast into, Rev 20:10, and then those whose names are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life will also be cast into the lake of fire. Scripture calls it outer darkness.

Death being the second death in Rev 20:13, has no power for those people are dead to God for they never had ears to hear the gospel being preached to them and have rejected Christ. They have died in their sins and are brought down to the grave (hell/pit), Rev 2:11, to wait for Gods final judgment after Christ returns and then they will be delivered up from the grave and the sea will deliver up the dead as death being those who have rejected Christ and hell being the grave/pit. They are delivered up to face Gods Great White Throne Judgment and will be cast into the same lake of fire that Satan, the beast and the false prophet have been cast into.

 

[JohnDB]

Hell is the one place He isn't.

Hell is the one place carved out of the universe that He has withdrawn His presence. Originally created as a prison for the angels who rebelled from His rule, it also serves double-duty for foolhardy humans who reject His benevolence. People who choose to have nothing to do with God get to go to a place that indeed is devoid of Him. God withdraws his attributes from this place, and that is what you experience there. Instead of love, hate. Instead of mercy, cruelty. Instead of joy, pain. Instead of beauty, ugliness. Instead of fulfillment, depression. Hell is a void in every sense. The single exception is the application of God's wrath, which is in the form of hell's fires.

Then if what you are saying is true then God cannot be omnipresent and this attribute must be removed from Him.
And if God is not omnipresent then God's Sovereignty is not complete nor omniscience nor omnipotence. The very nature of God becomes undone...

So... I'm not sold on your explanation.

There's a textbook, fairly old by today's standards named "Knowledge of The Holy" by A.W. Tozier which discusses the attributes of God. Pretty much accepted by most denominations. (Great logical explanations)
It's not expensive in the least.

But in it such things as omnipotence is discussed. Omnipotence is that all power is God's and is on loan to "whatever". God's Sovereignty keeps all power in check. God himself is perfectly efficient when He uses any power or else there are spillover effects and unintended consequences...and Sovereignty is non-existant once again.

God never loses power because it's an endless supply created by God to begin with. So that being said, your next breath isn't at God's acquiesce, it's at His active support. Not one spark from one campfire can exist without God's active support and encouragement. That's omnipotence. That's just one aspect this line of logic you have used removes from God. I can't accept that.

 

[Butch5]

This is an odd little point that I am just coming to terms with. The Hell that currently exists is not technically forever, though we sometimes say it is. We know from Revelation that on the day of the great white throne judgment, Hell will be thrown into a huge lake of fire (this is different from the small lake of fire that is in the current Hell, obviously bigger but also hotter). So I guess you can say once you're in Hell it's forever, even though your zip code will eventually change, you'll still be in Hell (no-one knows where the big LOF is).

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20: 11-15

Yeah we do. It's Gehenna