Hell is a PLACE

[Jim Parker]

It wasn't anything like this...
http://www.divinerevelations.info/documents/billwiese_23minutesinhell_text.htm
There were two technicians from the cable company at my home one day when i had a vision of a lake a lake that extended from the front of the house and as far as the eye could see north of the house. It was pure blackness.. you could say the blackness of darkness as described in Jude 1:13 The living room was glowing and a light wind was blowing through the room.. it lasted for about a minute, then it all vanished. Its enough to say its a place where you wouldn't want to go.
I've heard of others having visions its not unusual..
Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Sounds real to me.

 

[Edward]

How do you know which NDE are real and true? If there is no objective basis for determining such, it is nothing more than a personal, existential event. As I've given the illustration above of Australia's Kerry Packer and his 6-8 min NDE, his view was one of blasphemy in what he concluded about the afterlife. Why should his experience be less real than Kevin's or anybody else's experience? Kerry Packer now knows that permanent death is different from his blankety blank interpretation of his NDE.

Nowhere have I ever stated that hell is not real. I've provided links to a few brief articles that I've written that affirm the reality of hell from Scripture. In case you doubt me, These verses confirm the existence of hell (Matt 5:22 ESV; Matt 10:28 ESV; 2 Pet 2:4 ESV).

You have distorted what I said. In the other thread we were discussing logic and the meaning of Scripture and I wrote of the illumination of the Holy Spirit. Nothing I've said here contradicts this. Seems as though you want to trick me and I'm not falling for that one.

Oz

Yeah, the Holy Spirit pings my spirit is the best way to describe it. I guess that's what you call a personal existential experience. Depends on how you define existential I guess. It's no OBE that's for sure.

I'm not trying to trick you brother. I thought I heard a contradiction in there is all.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5, that is a very valid question, and one I have heard often. Here's my answer: I don't know. How to reconcile my experience with scripture I haven't the slightest idea. I know what I saw and experienced.

I appreciate your honesty, thank you!

 

[Butch5]



So what did you do? You gave me your opinion while denigrating the post that I made by dumbing it down to 'their opinions'.

So how do you decide on the etymology of a Greek or Hebrew word when used in Scripture? Ever heard of this Scripture? 'Work hard so you can present yourself to God and receive his approval. Be a good worker, one who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly explains the word of truth' (2 Tim 2:15 NLT).

The etymology I gave you from Keil & Delitzsch (OT) and Colin Brown (LXX & NT) are from those who know what they are talking about in exegesis of the text.

I also am sticking with the Scriptures but I examine closely what the text states in the original languages. That is NOT contrary to what Scripture states.

Oz

Oz,
We've had discussions before. You quote commentaries and other works as if they're infallible. The Scriptures are clear about the state of the dead. When you commentaries disagree with that I;m going to disagree with your commentaries.

 

[KevinK]

I appreciate your honesty, thank you!

Just calling it as I see it, Bro.

 

[OzSpen]




Oz,
We've had discussions before. You quote commentaries and other works as if they're infallible. The Scriptures are clear about the state of the dead. When you commentaries disagree with that I;m going to disagree with your commentaries.

Butch,

This is a false accusation. I quote commentaries and other works BECAUSE God has given spiritual gifts of teachers to the church and I regard commentators as teachers whose works need to be compared with Scripture. It is a trumped up charge against me to say that I treat commentaries 'as if they are infallible'. Please retract that false charge against me.

So is your definitive decision about what Scripture says about the state of the dead the one and only conclusion?

Saying you 'disagree with your commentaries' is a waste of time when you don't make one point against these commentaries to show where they are wrong. You know what that is, don't you?

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

It wasn't anything like this...

http://www.divinerevelations.info/documents/billwiese_23minutesinhell_text.htm

There were two technicians from the cable company at my home one day when i had a vision of a lake a lake that extended from the front of the house and as far as the eye could see north of the house. It was pure blackness.. you could say the blackness of darkness as described in Jude 1:13 The living room was glowing and a light wind was blowing through the room.. it lasted for about a minute, then it all vanished. Its enough to say its a place where you wouldn't want to go.

I've heard of others having visions its not unusual..

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

The more I think about your vision, the more I believe you saw hell.

iakov the fool

 

[Trichakra]

Hell is a real place, I know, I've been there.

Are you living in hell on earth?

 

[Sinthesis]

In my 30s I had an out-of-body experience (called a "vision" in the OT) and physically visited that awful place. I didn't see much of it, but I was there and I saw enough. I even know where it is (center of the earth). Argue with me if you wish, but I was there.

So I guess you can say once you're in Hell it's forever, even though your zip code will eventually change, you'll still be in Hell (no-one knows where the big LOF is).

Logically, an out of body experience means you didn't physically visit anywhere. This should be a relief, as you are clearly not currently in hell, which you seem to believe you would be, had you ever actually visited.

Even Paul wasn't so bold as to say he knew exactly how his visions were accomplished.

2Co 12:1 ¶ It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 - And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 - How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 - Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
2Co 12:6 - For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.​

 

[Edward]

Logically, an out of body experience means you didn't physically visit anywhere. This should be a relief, as you are clearly not currently in hell, which you seem to believe you would be, had you ever actually visited.

Even Paul wasn't so bold as to say he knew exactly how his visions were accomplished.

2Co 12:1 ¶ It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 - And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 - How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 - Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
2Co 12:6 - For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.​

Just because it was in spirit and not physically doesn't mean it wasn't real.

 

[eddif]

Logically, an out of body experience means you didn't physically visit anywhere. This should be a relief, as you are clearly not currently in hell, which you seem to believe you would be, had you ever actually visited.

Even Paul wasn't so bold as to say he knew exactly how his visions were accomplished.

2Co 12:1 ¶ It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2Co 12:2 - I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
2Co 12:3 - And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)
2Co 12:4 - How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
2Co 12:5 - Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
2Co 12:6 - For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.​

Of course some think human body symbolism strange. IMHO any vision will be tied to the created human body. Kidneys remove toxins (sin is dealt with). The winds of the spirit are the lungs seeking righteousness. The lungs expell co2. The brain judges.

So with all the things hidden in our body from creation, are we in the body or out of the body during visions?

eddif

 

[Sinthesis]

Just because it was in spirit and not physically doesn't mean it wasn't real.

I'm pointing out contradictions in his presentation, not judging if it was or wasn't real. He stated that while out of the body he physically visited hell.

 

[eddif]

Every time we see the physical creation we are seeing the spiritual.
Romans 1:19-20 area
The things of God are seen in his creation.

Pollution warps the physical.
Sin (Satan) warps the spiritual.

The physical is a shadow / type of the spiritual.
Pollution is the shadow of sin.

Metaphysical
Meta / greater
Physical / concrete creation

If we look at the physical, beyond and above is the spiritual God hid at creation.

Briars the evil one has sown.

There is a bunch I do not know about all this subject.

eddif

 

[Edward]

I'm pointing out contradictions in his presentation, not judging if it was or wasn't real. He stated that while out of the body he physically visited hell.

Oh. Perhaps he meant, he was physically there (in spirit), like being there and able to walk around within it, being present there as opposed to like seeing it in a vision.

 

[Sinthesis]

Oh. Perhaps he meant, he was physically there, like being there and able to walk around within it, being present there as opposed to like seeing it in a vision.

But then it wouldn't be an out of body experience. Maybe it was a virtual experience. I think Paul was wise to say 'whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth' when describing his experience.

 

[Edward]

But then it wouldn't be an out of body experience. Maybe it was a virtual experience. I think Paul was wise to say 'whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth' when describing his experience.

Of course it would be an out if body experience. If his spirit man and consciousness were there and his body home in bed or wherever, then that's exactly what that means.

Do you think that you cant walk around in spirit or something?

OK, I see what happened. I forgot to write "in spirit" in the other post. I edited it. Sorry.

 

[KevinK]

Oh. Perhaps he meant, he was physically there (in spirit), like being there and able to walk around within it, being present there as opposed to like seeing it in a vision.

That's exactly what I meant. It gets into semantic constraints, physical vs. spiritual. E.g., how can a person be physically punished in Hell if they no longer have a body? Well, I don't even know, and I don't think it really matters. How I was in Hell is a technicality; the main takeaway is I was there, and why.

I think it is confusing that there seems to be multiple experiences categorized under the term "vision". Seeing like watching a movie is different from seeing because one is actually there. So I try to differentiate between a vision and an out-of-body experience, as I think both are possible.

Don't even get me started on "near death experiences" (I believe they should be called "post death experiences", of course you must then concede that the person did actually die and come back to life.)

 

[Edward]

That's exactly what I meant. It gets into semantic constraints, physical vs. spiritual. E.g., how can a person be physically punished in Hell if they no longer have a body? Well, I don't even know, and I don't think it really matters. How I was in Hell is a technicality; the main takeaway is I was there, and why.

I think it is confusing that there seems to be multiple experiences categorized under the term "vision". Seeing like watching a movie is different from seeing because one is actually there. So I try to differentiate between a vision and an out-of-body experience, as I think both are possible.

Don't even get me started on "near death experiences" (I believe they should be called "post death experiences", of course you must then concede that the person did actually die and come back to life.)

Thought so. I agree about the NDE's too. They wouldn't have come back if it wasn't for God. It is PDE's no matter what anyone says. The Potter will do what He wants to do, lol. They prolly won't concede that someone died and came back because that would be conceding that God does exist.