Hell is a PLACE

[Butch5]

Forever and ever doesn't mean eternally?
Such as Revelation 14:11?

So also...
What happens to Satan?
Doesn't he get eternally punished?
After all the stuff that he made me do too...

Owlam and aion are both translated as eternal or forever, however, they can't mean that because they are used of things that end. Jesus spoke of aionios fire which is translated eternal fire. However, we have an example of aionios fire and it's not still burning.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude 1:7 KJV)

Sodom and Gomorrha are examples of what it means to suffer aionios fire and they are not still burning today. However, their destruction is so complete that no one even know where they were exactly.

Satan too will be tossed into the lake of fire and meet his, "END".

 

[Butch5]

I don't know about ghosts, but there is a hell at the center of the earth. I was there. And there were people (souls) there.

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. A soul requires a body according to Genesis. Man (body) + the breath or spirit of life from God = a living soul. Gen 2 tells us that God created man from the dust of the earth. That means that man is man of the elements of the earth. He didn't come to life until God breath "HIS" breath or spirit of life into the man. Scripture records that when a man dies the breath or spirit of God returns to Him and the man returns to the dust.

 

[Butch5]

I see. Well, interesting to say the least. I'm not sure I agree, but can't categorically disagree either. I guess we'll see on this one.

Jesus quotes Isaiah when He says their worm does not die. The whole chapter of Isaiah is all about the restoration, the new heavens and new earth.

 

[JohnDB]

That's fine. It's a difficult concept, maybe one that defies logical explanation. God is omnipotent in Hell, but not omnipresent? He has control over a place where He isn't present? Well, He's God, He can do anything. This is almost like the rock so big He can't lift debate. I do think it's more of a side issue compared to whether Hell is a place, so I think we can just leave it where it is for the time being. Or start a different thread.

But that is the title of the thread. It's not a side issue or a non sequitur.
This is the/a crux of this nihilism discussion. Gotta come up with something that's going to make sense.
(I didn't start this discussion... I'm just stirring the pot as I've been involved many times in this type of discussion...so I'm not really going to take a particular stance...just explore and make people fully explain their positions)

The devil is in the details...and I'm asking about them all.

 

[LovethroughDove]

I know that if I were damned, I would rather not exist at all vs. suffer for the rest of eternity. Would anyone want different?

No one would want any different, but you're right.....that is not the case. Jesus describes the 2 scenarios after death

Luke 16:22-26

 

[Butch5]

No one would want any different, but you're right.....that is not the case. Jesus describes the 2 scenarios after death

Luke 16:22-26

Actually, that parable is about the destruction of the priesthood. If you take notice Jesus said that parable to the Pharisees, not the disciples.

 

[JohnDB]

Actually, that parable is about the destruction of the priesthood. If you take notice Jesus said that parable to the Pharisees, not the disciples.

But why is the rich man asking for water?
Even a drip from Lazarus's finger...

 

[KevinK]

I'm gonna have to disagree with you. A soul requires a body according to Genesis. Man (body) + the breath or spirit of life from God = a living soul. Gen 2 tells us that God created man from the dust of the earth. That means that man is man of the elements of the earth. He didn't come to life until God breath "HIS" breath or spirit of life into the man. Scripture records that when a man dies the breath or spirit of God returns to Him and the man returns to the dust.

I saw people there, even talked with them. I don't know the technicalities of what they were made of. Some kind of spirit body that's different from the physical bodies we have now. It really doesn't matter what, it only matters that they were people in hell.

 

[KevinK]

But that is the title of the thread. It's not a side issue or a non sequitur.
This is the/a crux of this nihilism discussion. Gotta come up with something that's going to make sense.
(I didn't start this discussion... I'm just stirring the pot as I've been involved many times in this type of discussion...so I'm not really going to take a particular stance...just explore and make people fully explain their positions)

The devil is in the details...and I'm asking about them all.

Not sure how omni-whatever is the title of the thread. Title is "Hell is a PLACE". How does that lead to omni-? I suppose if you go into the details it is, but I don't think we have to.

It's also not nihilism, although I can see how one might think so. I'm not rejecting spiritualism by saying Hell is a physical place. It's a physical place where spiritual things happen. Believe me, I'm the last person who could be a nihilist. I've got the whacks to prove it.

 

[KevinK]

By the way, a person goes to Hell, talks with some of the condemned souls there, and comes back...and you guys don't have a million questions about what I saw? That's...interesting.

 

[Butch5]

I saw people there, even talked with them. I don't know the technicalities of what they were made of. Some kind of spirit body that's different from the physical bodies we have now. It really doesn't matter what, it only matters that they were people in hell.

I'm going with Scripture

 

[Butch5]

By the way, a person goes to Hell, talks with some of the condemned souls there, and comes back...and you guys don't have a million questions about what I saw? That's...interesting.

I think that speaks volumes.

 

[Butch5]

But why is the rich man asking for water?
Even a drip from Lazarus's finger...

They're seeking relief from God's wrath.

 

[JohnDB]

Not sure how omni-whatever is the title of the thread. Title is "Hell is a PLACE". How does that lead to omni-? I suppose if you go into the details it is, but I don't think we have to.

It's also not nihilism, although I can see how one might think so. I'm not rejecting spiritualism by saying Hell is a physical place. It's a physical place where spiritual things happen. Believe me, I'm the last person who could be a nihilist. I've got the whacks to prove it.

Because logically what you are saying cannot be true.
It destroys the God we know to be true.
So either God isn't God...or you are mistaken.

 

[Malachi]

I put it out that saying things like this is not only misleading, but downright sinful. You endanger not only your own soul, but those of anyone who would listen to you. I feel very strongly about this. Hell is a real place, I know, I've been there.

Amen. Those who deny that Hell is a literal, physical place are contradicting Christ, and will give account for misleading others. Those who fail to mention Hell in any Gospel message are also guilty of hiding the truth.

 

[KevinK]

Because logically what you are saying cannot be true.
It destroys the God we know to be true.
So either God isn't God...or you are mistaken.

What's interesting is that evangelist Bill Weiss (who had a much broader experience in Hell) makes the exact same observations, about God withdrawing His attributes. I'm not sure if that qualifies as lacking omnipresence or not, but I truly don't think it's a critical point, and may even be just semantics. We both felt the same thing in Hell, and that was the absence- in some sense- of God. Maybe just His attributes were missing, fine. Maybe it's not something you can grasp intellectually. You have to feel it, and then you understand. Only in most cases, once you feel it, it's already too late. Which brings us to why I posted this thread in the first place. To try and save souls, even just one. I would hate to think that someone went to Hell because a simple message was lost in an off-topic debate.

(Btw, aren't we supposed to avoid verbiage such as "you are mistaken" in A&T? Seems awfully close to "You're wrong". )

• Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.

 

[KevinK]

Amen. Those who deny that Hell is a literal, physical place are contradicting Christ, and will give account for misleading others. Those who fail to mention Hell in any Gospel message are also guilty of hiding the truth.

Amen!

 

[jasonc]

Sheol,was mentioned in Luke 16.

That said you do know Sodom was found.the gate and the ruins.

Let's not confuse hades with the lake of fire or gehenna.all of which have torment.

 

[OzSpen]

Of course hell is a literal place of torment and misery, with a literal fire.

How can it be a place of literal fire and a place of outer darkness? Those two concepts are mutually exclusive. 'And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth' (Matt 25:30 ESV).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

The early readings of current Scripture? The word hell is used to translate 3 different locations in the Scriptures. There is Hades, the grave, Gehenna a location outside of Jerusalem, that John refers to as the Lake of Fire, and Tartarus when the angels are held.

According to OT commentators Keil & Delitzsch, ‘Sheol denotes the place where departed souls are gathered after death’ (n d:338).

One of the leading exegetical Greek word studies edited by Colin Brown states: ‘In the LXX [Septuagint] hades occurs more than 100 times, in the majority of instances to translate Heb sheol, the underworld which receives all the dead. It is a land of darkness, in which God is not remembered (Job 10:21f; 26:5; Ps. 6:5; 30:9 [LXX 29:9]; 115:17 [LXX 113:25]; Prov. 1:12; 27:20; Isa. 5:14)’ (Brown 1976:206).

So in the LXX, hades is a Greek translation of the Hebrew, sheol.

Works consulted

Brown, C (ed) 1976. The new international dictionary of New Testament theology, vol 2. Exeter: The Paternoster Press.

Keil, C F & Delitzsch, F n d. Tr by J Martin (from the German). Commentary on the Old Testament: The Pentateuch, vol 1. Grand Rapids, Michigan: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company.