Hell, what is it?

[stovebolts]

As an example of Gehenna, the Bible doesn't tell us a whole lot about the sacrificial system of Moleck, Chemosh or Baal. But historical documents give us the detail that can give us an idea of how horrific they were.

When we understand that child sacrifice was common in the ancient near East, it helps us understand the signicance of Abraham being told to offer Isaac. The whole story takes on a deeper meaning.

 

[stovebolts]

Historically, Jesus was born from the virgin Mary. He was crucified under Pontios Pilot and died on the cross.

Praise be to God that He has risen from the grave and he is alive to this very day.

Historically, we are talking about pre death. Take a step back and take a breath please.

 

[stovebolts]

Wasn't Paul well versed in Greek mythology? I know he was knowledgeable of Greek philosophy.

Yes, and he quotes from it if I remember correctly. I just can't remember which passage at the moment.

 

[stovebolts]

It was the mirror of the patron God Diana aka Artemis. @PapaZoom

 

[Papa Zoom]

Yes, and he quotes from it if I remember correctly. I just can't remember which passage at the moment.

I read this recently. At any rate, I think your points are right on.

 

[JAG ..]

I really enjoy N. T. Wright

Small world.

I like to read him too. However, its takes him forever to get "to the point." And he
rambles around everywhere before he finally arrives at the point. (this not intended to
be unkind criticism, I wrote that pleasantly.)

Nonetheless, I have his "Surprised By Hope" and his "Simply Christian" on my
Kindle and I keep "both of 'em going" as books on my Keep On Reading List.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Small world.

I like to read him too. However, its takes him forever to get "to the point." And he
rambles around everywhere before he finally arrives at the point. (this not intended to
be unkind criticism, I wrote that pleasantly.)

Nonetheless, I have his "Surprised By Hope" and his "Simply Christian" on my
Kindle and I keep "both of 'em going" as books on my Keep On Reading List.

I'd say his unpacks his points carefully, methodically, and slowly. ;)

 

[Nathan]

Thanks for clarifying, you had me confused for a moment.

Jesus IS, WAS, and WILL be if we want to be correct.

But the idea that Jesus IS ( as in currently 2017) helps to make my point. Jesus used the word Hades over 2000 years ago to a culture that understood the stories of Hades. For some, Hades was a part of the cultural fabric of the day.

Here is a modern day example. If I say 9-11, what's the first thought that comes to your mind? What images pop up in your mind? Does it stir any feelings in your bones? What do you associate 9-11 with?

Now imagine somebody in the year 4017 talking about 9-11 saying that terrorism is evil, so we should not learn anything about It? It's simply an absurd notion.

Going back to Greek mythology, Jesus was trying to make a specific point to a specific set of people. Because Greek mythology was real in their world (minds), the words Jesus spoke took on specific nuances that those immersed in that culture at that specific time on history would have grabbed hold of, just like 9-11 stirs us today.

This being the case, I think bringing in historical facts into the equation helps us better understand the original intent.

If we loose the proper context of a passage, the passage takes on new meanings to accommodate the current culture. This is dangerous for many reasons. What I propose, is getting as close to the original intent, and then make a practical application for the current day. If we make the practical application the main intent, we loose the Main intent.

I hope this better explains myself.

I do understand what you mean, I simply do not think we can do that and stay in truth.

Now, if you are wanting to contrast what hell actually is(based on what we read in the Bible) with what the Greek's thought it was, then that is a different story.

But since Greek mythology was a religious belief system, based on 'gods' that the Greek's had made up, then we can know that the Son of the True God would not use another religion to describe the truth. Contrast yes, teach truths from - no. God does not need to use another religion's belief to teach His truth.

For instance, we would not teach truths from a cults/false religions set of beliefs now days. There is no need for that, and all it would do is give some credence to that cults ideas. We don't teach from their texts(or at least I sure hope churches do not), there is simply no need for it. We can convey the truths of God using only the Words of God. Jesus, and His disciples, taught truth from the Scriptures.

Now, we can contrast the truth from Scripture with the false beliefs of other documents. That's fine. But we cannot say that those false documents are to be considered to 'contain' truth - because what they contain is poisoned and should not be consumed.

 

[Nathan]

As an example of Gehenna, the Bible doesn't tell us a whole lot about the sacrificial system of Moleck, Chemosh or Baal. But historical documents give us the detail that can give us an idea of how horrific they were.

When we understand that child sacrifice was common in the ancient near East, it helps us understand the signicance of Abraham being told to offer Isaac. The whole story takes on a deeper meaning.

Abraham offering Isaac has ZERO to do with ancient near East practices. I am not sure if that was the relationship you were drawing there, but that is NOT something I would let leave hanging out there.

Child sacrifice of the ancients was detestable and ungodly. Nothing even remotely like what Abraham was told to do. Abraham's obedience was a direct correlation to what God was going to do with His Son. It had ZERO to do with evil wickedness of Eastern practices.

Again, I am not sure that it was what you were trying to get at - but if that's how you want to relate Jesus teaching on hell, and the Greek's idea of it, then nothing could be further from the truth.

 

[JAG ..]

I'd say his unpacks his points carefully, methodically, and slowly. ;)

I see your "I'd say his unpacks his points carefully, methodically, and slowly. ;) "
as complimentary to my "However, its takes him forever to get "to the point." And he
rambles around everywhere before he finally arrives at the point."

 

[Papa Zoom]

I see your "I'd say his unpacks his points carefully, methodically, and slowly. ;) "
as complimentary to my "However, its takes him forever to get "to the point." And he
rambles around everywhere before he finally arrives at the point."

Yeah, we probably mean the same thing said in different way. I'm an old fart and I take forever too. Sometimes I get lost and have to start over.

 

[stovebolts]

Abraham offering Isaac has ZERO to do with ancient near East practices. I am not sure if that was the relationship you were drawing there, but that is NOT something I would let leave hanging out there.

Child sacrifice of the ancients was detestable and ungodly. Nothing even remotely like what Abraham was told to do. Abraham's obedience was a direct correlation to what God was going to do with His Son. It had ZERO to do with evil wickedness of Eastern practices.

Again, I am not sure that it was what you were trying to get at - but if that's how you want to relate Jesus teaching on hell, and the Greek's idea of it, then nothing could be further from the truth.

Considering you know nothing of the ancient near East, I would suspect you to say something like that.
However, the Bible tells us that Abraham came out of the ancient near east.... at it's very core. What took place on the mountain had much to do with where Abraham came out of. Primarily that this God wasn't like the other gods.

I hope that you don't misunderstand me. I am not saying we should buy into the old myths as truth. What I am saying, and have said, and WILL continue to say is we can study and read them to get a better idea of the original intent.

You spend a lot of time and effort not learning about them and coming up with excuses why you won't. Please, don't oppose me on matters you know nothing about. Please, be a part of the conversation. Ask questions, keep me straight because iron sharpens iron when it's not used as a hammer to flatten the other guy.

 

[stovebolts]

I see your "I'd say his unpacks his points carefully, methodically, and slowly. ;) "
as complimentary to my "However, its takes him forever to get "to the point." And he
rambles around everywhere before he finally arrives at the point."

I think that's why he enjoyed writing his Paul for everyone series lol!

 

[Papa Zoom]

I think that's why he enjoyed writing his Paul for everyone series lol!

He's even more fun to listen to. The N. T. Wright Podcast by Sean Andres Old stuff but good.

 

[Nathan]

Considering you know nothing of the ancient near East, I would suspect you to say something like that.
However, the Bible tells us that Abraham came out of the ancient near east.... at it's very core. What took place on the mountain had much to do with where Abraham came out of. Primarily that this God wasn't like the other gods.

I hope that you don't misunderstand me. I am not saying we should buy into the old myths as truth. What I am saying, and have said, and WILL continue to say is we can study and read them to get a better idea of the original intent.

You spend a lot of time and effort not learning about them and coming up with excuses why you won't. Please, don't oppose me on matters you know nothing about. Please, be a part of the conversation. Ask questions, keep me straight because iron sharpens iron when it's not used as a hammer to flatten the other guy.

I am sorry if you feel like I am being a hammer. I simply am not going to consume anything other than the word of God. That's it.

Here is the whole thing. I absolutely have ZERO need for any 'deeper' understanding of what hell is. If I needed it, then I am sure I would receive it. What I DO know is that I am not going to go to a false religion or cult for my knowledge. That is a very dangerous place to look. There is absolutely no need to consult false beliefs to find the truth. Think about it. Are you going to ask a Mormon if satan is actually Jesus brother, or try to understand the relationship/differences based on what they teach???

Abraham came out of the land he was called from, so should we. He did not look back onto that land he came out of, and it had NOTHING to do with his obedience to God on the mountain. We should not look back to the land we were called out of either. It holds no truth for us.

Honestly, that is quite shocking and horrific to try and relate the two things. The sacrifice of children was an abomination to God and had nothing to do with His sacrifice of His Son - which Abraham was typifying.

 

[JAG ..]

I think that's why he enjoyed writing his Paul for everyone series lol!

Wright writes a lot of books.
I heard Edward Fudge say that, "Some say N.T. Wright has written more books than he has read."
Fudge said that as a complement to N.T. Wright.

 

[Pegasus]

Wasn't Paul well versed in Greek mythology? I know he was knowledgeable of Greek philosophy.

Indeed:

Paul quoted Menander in the book of Acts and in 1 Corinthians. He quoted Epimenides in the book of Titus. Let's take a look.

• Acts 17:28, "for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.'"
  • "The first part of verse 28 comes from Cretica by Epimenides, and the second part of the verse from Hymn to Zeus, written by the Cilician poet Aratus. To be sure, both of these lines were directed at Zeus in Greek literature, but Paul applied them to the Creator of whom he spoke."1
  • Paul quoted "the first half of the fifth line, word for word, of an astronomical poem of Aratus, a Greek countryman of the apostle, and his predecessor by about three centuries. But, as he hints, the same sentiment is to be found in other Greek poets. They meant it doubtless in a pantheistic sense; but the truth which it expresses the apostle turns to his own purpose—to teach a pure, personal, spiritual Theism."2
• 1 Cor. 15:33, "Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good morals.'”
  • "a current saying, forming a verse in MENANDER, the comic poet, who probably took it from Euripides [SOCRATES, Ecclesiastical History, 3.16]."3
  • "The words “Bad company ruins good morals” are found in a play by Menander (4th-3rd century B. C.) but may well have become a common saying by Paul’s time."4
  • "Evil communications corrupt good manners. An iambic line from the ‘Thais’ of Menander, and perhaps taken by Menander from a play of Euripides. More accurately it means “evil associations corrupt excellent morals."5
• Titus 1:12, "One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons."
  • "Epimenides of Phaestus, or Gnossus, in Crete, about 600. He was sent for to purify Athens from its pollution occasioned by Cylon. He was regarded as a diviner and prophet. The words here are taken probably from his treatise “concerning oracles.” Paul also quotes from two other heathen writers, ARATUS (Ac 17:28) and MENANDER (1 Co 15:33), but he does not honor them so far as even to mention their names.6
  • "A prophet of their own; viz. Epimenides, a native either of Phæstus or of Cnossus in Crete, the original author of this line, which is also quoted by Callimachus. Epimenides is here called a prophet, not simply as a poet, but from his peculiar character as priest, bard, and seer; called by Plato θεῖος ἀνήρ and coupled by Cicero with Bacis the Boeotian prophet, and the sibyl (Bishop Ellicott); described by other ancient writers as a prophet (Alford)."7

https://carm.org/did-paul-quote-pagan-philosophers

 

[Pegasus]

Here is the whole thing. I absolutely have ZERO need for any 'deeper' understanding of what hell is. If I needed it, then I am sure I would receive it. What I DO know is that I am not going to go to a false religion or cult for my knowledge.

Don't think that was his point. What StoveBolts was hitting on is Biblical exegesis not taking the truth of the pagan source, but the surrounding culture and its effects on people of God. See post above. Paul used Greek poets and philosophers to 'speak the language' of the culture he preached the Gospel to.

If you have read any of John Gill's commentaries on the Bible, he goes into great detail to explain the culture of the time when a Bible book was written. For example, Jesus' use of parables and the subject and characters in His parables. His Jewish and Diaspora "Greek" Jewish audiences would understand the teaching method and also the settings as that is how they were taught in synagogue.

Biblical exegesis also helps us understand other important factors which if we did not examine closely, we would be guilty of eisegesis---reading our century into an ancient century.

There are some basic principles of good exegesis which serious students of the Bible will follow:

1. The Grammatical Principle. The Bible was written in human language, and language has a certain structure and follows certain rules. Therefore, we must interpret the Bible in a manner consistent with the basic rules of language.

Usually, the exegete starts his examination of a passage by defining the words in it. Definitions are basic to understanding the passage as a whole, and it is important that the words be defined according to their original intent and not according to modern usage. To ensure accuracy, the exegete uses a precise English translation and Greek and Hebrew dictionaries.

Next, the exegete examines the syntax, or the grammatical relationships of the words in the passage. He finds parallels, he determines which ideas are primary and which are subordinate, and he discovers actions, subjects, and their modifiers. He may even diagram a verse or two.

2. The Literal Principle. We assume that each word in a passage has a normal, literal meaning, unless there is good reason to view it as a figure of speech. The exegete does not go out of his way to spiritualize or allegorize. Words mean what words mean.

So, if the Bible mentions a “horse,” it means “a horse.” When the Bible speaks of the Promised Land, it means a literal land given to Israel and should not be interpreted as a reference to heaven.

3. The Historical Principle. As time passes, culture changes, points of view change, language changes. We must guard against interpreting scripture according to how our culture views things; we must always place scripture in its historical context.

The diligent Bible student will consider the geography, the customs, the current events, and even the politics of the time when a passage was written. An understanding of ancient Jewish culture can greatly aid an understanding of scripture. To do his research, the exegete will use Bible dictionaries, commentaries, and books on history.

4. The Synthesis Principle. The best interpreter of scripture is scripture itself. We must examine a passage in relation to its immediate context (the verses surrounding it), its wider context (the book it’s found in), and its complete context (the Bible as a whole). The Bible does not contradict itself. Any theological statement in one verse can and should be harmonized with theological statements in other parts of scripture. Good Bible interpretation relates any one passage to the total content of scripture.

5. The Practical Principle. Once we’ve properly examined the passage to understand its meaning, we have the responsibility to apply it to our own lives. To “rightly divide the word of truth” is more than an intellectual exercise; it is a life-changing event.

Source: https://www.gotquestions.org/Biblical-exegesis.html

 

[stovebolts]

I am sorry if you feel like I am being a hammer. I simply am not going to consume anything other than the word of God. That's it.

Here is the whole thing. I absolutely have ZERO need for any 'deeper' understanding of what hell is. If I needed it, then I am sure I would receive it. What I DO know is that I am not going to go to a false religion or cult for my knowledge. That is a very dangerous place to look. There is absolutely no need to consult false beliefs to find the truth. Think about it. Are you going to ask a Mormon if satan is actually Jesus brother, or try to understand the relationship/differences based on what they teach???

Abraham came out of the land he was called from, so should we. He did not look back onto that land he came out of, and it had NOTHING to do with his obedience to God on the mountain. We should not look back to the land we were called out of either. It holds no truth for us.

Honestly, that is quite shocking and horrific to try and relate the two things. The sacrifice of children was an abomination to God and had nothing to do with His sacrifice of His Son - which Abraham was typifying.

Wow.....
You really don't get it do you?
That's ok, I can't, nor would I force my understanding on you. We see this in two very different ways. If my way is sin for you, then it is sin for you. I, however will exercise my freedom to pursue a deeper understanding of sacred scripture.

As far as Abraham, we are told to remember where we came from. Verse after verse the Jews were told to remember what they came out of. Many of their festivals commemorate their past.

Yes, we look forward, but we always remember our past, and what God has brought us through.

When we partake of the Lord's supper, Jesus says for us to remember.

Though you disagree. It is simply your willful ignorance, which is not being said as an insult, but rather as a statement regarding your unwillingness to learn history and culture.

To that point, child sacrifice was ripe in the ancient near East. So much, it was common. Abram came out of the ANE so when God told him to sacrifice his only son, whom he loved, Abram didn't think twice. He actually reasoned God would bring him back from the dead. Yes, this typifies Jesus, but it also showed Abram that this God was not like the other gods. This God did not require child sacrifices like the other gods. This GOD was getting ready to create a major culture shift in the world that we still experience the ripple.

You may disagree, but your disagreement is unfounded. My comments can be proven through historical documents which I have in my possession. Ancient Near Eastern Texts, by Pritchard which is a culmination of all the ANE texts. Many which are before any biblical texts were formed, and a few directly from the very spot Abram came out of which coincide with the dates he left.

 

[JAG ..]

Yeah, we probably mean the same thing said in different way.
I'm an old fart and I take forever too. Sometimes I get lost and
have to start over.

♦ /Big Grin

♦ I have a huge amount of respect for Senior Citizens and stand
aside so they can step in front of me in Walmart check-out lines,
especially if they are walking with a cane and can quote John 3:16

♦ I think the United States Government has a moral obligation to issue
Senior Citizens badges to all Senior Citizens so they can legally
go to the front of all lines at all check-out counters, while placing the
grumblers/objectors under arrest for "disrespecting the aged" --- if they
need to do that.

. . . lol . .

/just kidding around up there


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