HELL

[turnorburn]

I have this happen when I preach on hell, people talk peace when there is no peace.
Why do you suppose preachers don't preach hell anymore? This new ecumenical movement
preaches to people that want there ears tickled, so they ignore it. That shows me that the scriptures
are true, "lovers of self" not lovers of God. Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone else.
After all, it is the reason he did what he did.

Now it looks like I've stirred up a

Just a reminder that this topic is about Hell. Any other discussion needs to be in a new thread in the appropriate forum.

Thanks.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

..ets talk about that period known as "The Dark Ages"
A time when Monarchs were in great fear of the Pope....

 

[turnorburn]

 

[guibox]

guibox,

One thing at a time. Matthew 10:28 shows that man has a soul which can exist apart from his body. It says nothing about it being eternal but it is enough to poke a serious hole in your position.

Anything you want to add (or subtract)?

Mat 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell"

No it doesn't. It only does to you because you have approached it with the preconcieved notion that the soul is separate from the body and is a conscious cogitating essence of man. This is a false assumption that cannot be first proven from the Bible.

I already explained this text. It is the metaphorical equivalent of saying that 'those drugs stopped his heart and destroyed his mind and 'he was damaged physically and his spirit was crushed'. Physical and eternal life are what is being spoken of here, Free. Not a physical body and a separate 'soulish' body.

You are reading assumptions into a passage that doesn't support it.

'soul' the 'psuche/nephesh' is NEVER used to denote what the Greeks believed which is what you are basically saying this verse says.

 

[Free]

No it doesn't. It only does to you because you have approached it with the preconcieved notion that the soul is separate from the body and is a conscious cogitating essence of man. This is a false assumption that cannot be first proven from the Bible.

I already explained this text. It is the metaphorical equivalent of saying that 'those drugs stopped his heart and destroyed his mind and 'he was damaged physically and his spirit was crushed'. Physical and eternal life are what is being spoken of here, Free. Not a physical body and a separate 'soulish' body.

You are reading assumptions into a passage that doesn't support it.

We'll see who is most likely making assumptions.

Firstly, the text is clear that man can kill the body but not the soul; it is God alone who has that power. Notitce that the text says "kill the body but cannot kill the soul" and "both soul and body" (NKJV). The simplest readilng, with no preconceived notions of either eternal life or a separate soul, leads to the only logical explantion--that the body and soul are in fact separate. That is according to a plain reading of the text itself.

According to you the concept of "soul" includes the body--a "living being". So how is it that man can kill the body but not the soul? If your position were correct, the text ought to read something very different since the soul ought to cease existing with the death of the body.

Secondly, To say that it is referring to eternal life is to read into the text something that isn't there; there is nothing in the context to support your clailm. This is what you previously stated:

"'soul' is translated as 'life' a 'living being', what constitutes a 'thinking, cogitating feeling person' is what makes him a 'soul'. You do not...treat 'soul' here as a separate entity. Rather it is an existential reality....The soul is 'life'. Man cannot destroy eternal life, but merely the body. Only God can destroy life."

Does "soul" mean "living being" or "eternal life"? If the "soul" is "a 'thinking, cogitating feeling person'", then how does that relate to eternal life? On what grounds do you make the leap from the soul being the whole person, a person who can think and feel, to "soul" referring to "eternal life"? Is there any other use of "soul" in all of Scripture which can support the understanding of "eternal life"?

 

[Orion]

As an example for my question, does the metaphor that God resembles a "mighty fortress" mean that God does not exist?

It is the author's thoughts on how HE views God to be FOR HIM, and at the TIME that he WROTE those words. God, in fact, . . . may not even HAVE that characteristic of being a "fortress". But if it help the Psalmist David to make it through his struggles, then I'm sure it helped him. What does one do in a fortress? Why are they constructed? Who lives in them, and why? Makes you wonder why David even coined the words, doesn't it? It is a defensive stronghold, not offensive. Is God being a "strong fortress" for everyone?

These are questions/thoughts when we look at the words used in this particular metaphor. The Bible is jam packed full of metaphors.

Your last post was talking about "the ability to kill the body AND soul, in Hell". I would say, if that is literal, . . . . how do you kill the body? What happens after the body is killed. It ceases to be a living vessel and turns to dust, eventually. THEN, having said that, . . . if you "kill the soul", what would be the logical conclusion? . . . . . .it TOO ceases to live, . . but die, turning to a "spiritual dust" of non-existance.

These are all just metaphorical words and ideas. Unfortunately, it is left up to us to try and decipher the meaning. I think it is ridiculous to create all levels of doctrine based upon obvious metaphorical language.

 

[handy]

Yes, the Scriptures are full of metaphor, but it would be a mistake to think it's all metaphor. The 'mighty fortress' is indeed a metaphor based upon what David believed (as do I) of God's protection of His people. And, as Free says, the fact that David used a metaphor to describe God, certainly doesn't mean that God isn't real.

I think it would be a mistake to think that Jesus was speaking metaphorically in Matthew 10, though. Sure, He uses a few metaphorical terms: 'lost sheep' for instance, and verse 16 is metaphoric. But for the most part, Christ is speaking straight from the hip in this passage. Even the instruction of 'proclaim upon the housetops' in verse 27 isn't metaphor. Often the housetops were the 'soapbox' of that day, a term that to us may be metaphor, but in those days, folks really did make proclamations while standing above the crowds on the housetops, just as folks used to stand upon literal boxes of soap, to make proclamations to a crowd.

The easist way to determine the metaphor from the literal is to look at context. The context in which Jesus is speaking is that He is giving very practical instructions to the disciples to go out to the towns of Israel, and proclaim God's kingdom. We know that this is literal, because it is recorded, not only by Matthew, but by Mark and Luke as well, that the disciples did exactly that: go to the various towns and proclaim the kingdom.

 

[guibox]

Does "soul" mean "living being" or "eternal life"? If the "soul" is "a 'thinking, cogitating feeling person'", then how does that relate to eternal life? On what grounds do you make the leap from the soul being the whole person, a person who can think and feel, to "soul" referring to "eternal life"? Is there any other use of "soul" in all of Scripture which can support the understanding of "eternal life"?

I can understand your confusion and the seeming contradiction. I apologize for not making myself clear. Please understand that my explanations are based on man being a wholistic being and not a dualist being.

When a man is killed, his physical life is extinguished. As a living 'soul', man no longer exists or functions as one. However, God will restore man to a living 'nephesh'. He is not wholly exterminated from the blueprint of existence. We know that there is a resurrection of the dead. But what would happen to man if there were no resurrection?

"If the dead is not raised and Christ is not raised then ye are yet in your sins. Then those that are asleep in Christ are perished." 1 Corinthians 15:16-18 (roughly) - (BTW, this passage and other surrounding verses in this entire chapter completely negate the 'immortal soul outside the body in eternal bliss', but that is another thread)

Man would remain dead eternally. His soul (life, being a living being) would truly be destroyed. Man cannot resurrect. Only God can. In so doing, man's 'nephesh' continues in a new life. God could choose NOT to resurrect and thus in so doing, destroy the 'soul' (life).

In terms of the final days I believe (as the bible teaches) that man will ultimately be destroyed in the fires of hell. When this occurs, man is eternally obliterated. God has truly destroyed the true essence of life. Man is no longer a living 'nephesh'. He is truly dead for eternity. There is no second chances and no resurrection.

 

[turnorburn]

Thanks guys, now I know where to come for chat, Ha! "my thread" what was I thinking?
I'm out of pop corn, ginger ale all you can drink* is in the fridge. Maybe a sub forum, awe' I'll leave it in your
capable hands in the mean time...

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I apologize if I goofed up your thread. Please steer it back on to course, and I will participate.

 

[theSeriousOne]

"The gift of God or hell, the choice is ours."
What IS the 'gift of God'?
What IS 'hell?

 

[Highway54]

A sore spot for the unbeliever as well as a the Christian, "some Christians"
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/hellreal.htm

In His Service,
turnorburn

It is one of the sad things we have to endure because of Adam. Think of all the joy that will come when those in it start to be resurrected.

 

[232 Ben Yissachar]

Believe What the Jewish Apostles Taught, Not What the Greek Philosophers Taught​

• Why Tradition about the fate of the lost, (as torment forever) is unbiblical and not hermeneutically correct.
• Why Conditional Immortality is absolutely true and all unsaved souls will one day be "destroyed."
• Why there is no "immortal soul" doctrine in the Bible, for the lost, at all.
• 
  
• Jewish Apostles Taught:
  However, the Scriptures teach the soul is destructible and immortality is part of the gospel.
  

  "Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body..." (Matthew 10:28)
  "There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy" (James 4:12)
  "...who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel" (2 Tim 1:10)

  Conclusion: Jesus and James taught the soul was destructible. Paul taught that immortality is brought through the gospel.

https://jewishnotgreek.com/ Read before answering.

My conclusion, anyone who believes that God punishes the lost forever for sins committed in a finite life without them being destroyed, does not really know Him or the scriptures.

 

[232 Ben Yissachar]

Where was Samuel before he appeared to Saul ? Answer = Abraham's bosom Luke 16:22-23

1 Samuel 28

11​	Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12​	And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13​	And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14​	And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15​	And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16​	Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17​	And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbor, even to David: