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HELL

free. . . . . .( and turnorburn :wink: ). . . . The first few chapters in Revelation are John's letters to churches of his time and where he sees them in their faith. Chapter 1 does have the imagery of the "seven golden lampstands", which are metaphorical. The "seven stars", the "double edge sword out of the mouth", "face shining like the sun". . .

Chapter 4 and on is where you start with this fantastical (thus metaphorical) language.

-a door in Heaven
-voice like a trumpet
-one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and carnelian
-a rainbow encircling the throne
-flashes of lightening and cracks of thunder (does heaven experience meterological events?)
-the creatures with all the eyes and six sets of wings
-the sealed scroll with writing on both sides (do they actually write on scrolls in Heaven?)
-the imagery of the "slain lamb", but with seven horns and seven eyes.
-seven seals
-the four horsemen of the apocolypse
-the stars in the sky fell to the earth [Rev.6:13]. . . . . .which is obviously impossible (and is a topic for another discussion)
-the sky receding like a scroll
-mountains and islands removed from their place
-kings and the rich "hiding in caves calling to rocks to fall on them to hide them from the face of him who sits on the throne and the wrath of the lamb, as if men are seeing heaven from earth.
-four angels standing at the four corners of the earth (which could strike up another thread) holding back the four winds...
-seal on the forheads of the servants of God
-exactly 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel.
-people wearing white robes
-the seven trumpets
-the censer being hurled to earth (imagery of heaven being "above the clouds")
-the "third" of various things dying
-locust from the whole created by a falling projectile from space (who looked like horses with crowns of gold, women's hair and human faces, and lion teeth, breastplate of iron, with loud sounds, and tails with the stings of scorpians. . . . . . . tormenting for 5 months.
-people seeking death, but not finding it
-four angels who are bound at the Euphrates river
-200 million riders on horses that had the head of a lion, with fire, smoke and sulfer coming out of their mouth, which are "three plagues", with the power of the horses in their head and in their tail, which was like the tail of a snake
-an angel robed with a cloud having a rainbow above his head, face like the sun, legs like fiery pillars
-this angel planting his right foot in the sea, and his left on the land
-seven thunders speaking, . . . yet John was not permitted to write the words, so why bring them up?
-John eating a part of the scroll which is sweet in the mouth and bitter in the stomach
-two olive trees and two lampstands. . . .and if anyone tries to harm them, fire will come out of their mouth and devour them
-"Come up here", and they went up to heaven in a cloud
-God's temple opening and the "ark of the covenant" being there. . .as if this man made box has some value in the spiritual realm. And, of course, the lightning, thunder, earthquake and great hailstorm that accompanies it.
-a woman clothed with the sun, the moon under her feet, a crown of twelve stars on her head, pregnant
-enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on each head. the dragon wanting to devour the woman's baby, but the baby is snatched up to God and she fleas into the desert for 1,260 days. (I wonder who the baby was?)
-the war in heaven between Michael, and his angels, against the dragon and his angels.
-the woman given two wings of a great eagle so she could escape the dragon (who was hurled to earth, . . . again, imagery as if "heaven was up in the sky")
-the dragon spewing water to sweep her away with the torrent
-the earth's "mouth" pitching in to help by swallowing the water.
-beast resembling a leopard with feet like a bear and mouth like a lion
-the wounded head
-men worshipping the dragon because he had given authority to the beast.
-another beast with two horns "like a lamb", but spoke like a dragon. Performing miracles.
-the number 666
-the Father's name written on men's foreheads
-no one being able to learn a song except the 144,000 redeemed
-drink the maddening wine of her adulteries
-the wine of God's fury, poured full strength into the cup of his wrath
-"take your sickle and reap"....the angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath, which is apparently outside the city, and the blood flowed as high as the horses bridle for a distance of 1,600 stadia (however far that is)

Okay, I'm getting tired and am only made it through chapter 14 out of 22..... All of it, metaphorical language. I see no reason to view "the lake of fire" as any more literal. :-?

By the way, the New Jeruselem, . . . . is a giant square cube.
 
Orion,

You're not reading what I'm writing. No one is denying that there is language in Revelation that is metaphorical but even these metaphors are describing actual persons, places, and events. And not all of the language is metaphorical.

So when I asked you to read Rev. 21 and 22, you should have found a vivid description of what the New Jerusalem looks like. It is not merely a "square cube" (as opposed to those circular cubes?). Even if you want to argue that it is all metaphorical language, which it isn't, it still is describing a particular place that will appear at a particular time.

Likewise, the Lake of Fire is a particular place, the Judgment a particular event, etc. Jesus severely warned of hell, so if it isn't a literal place he was lying.


guibox said:
I don't believe you are 'well aware' for you continue to ignore the wholistic view of 'soul' that the Bible espouses for Greek philosophy. Free, the Greek 'psuche' as is used in the NT is the equivalent of nephesh. The NT quotes a few times straight from the OT in using 'soul' (Such as Acts 2:27) thus linking 'psuche' with 'nephesh'.
Yes, I am well aware of all of this.

guibox said:
Only gratuitous assumption says that the word soul 'developed' in meaning from the OT to the NT.
Or perhaps just thorough, proper Bible study.

guibox said:
Again an assumption with no merit. 'soul' is translated as 'life' a 'living being', what constitutes a 'thinking, cogitating feeling person' is what makes him a 'soul'. You do not (nor should according to biblical linguistic evidence) treat 'soul' here as a separate entity. Rather it is an existential reality. It's like us saying 'He damaged him physically and destroyed his spirit (i.e, damaged him emotionally). The soul is 'life'. Man cannot destroy eternal life, but merely the body. Only God can destroy life.
No. You and others continue to state that the soul is the entirety of man--body and spirit in unity is what constitutes a living being, a soul. What this verse in Matthew does is state that destroying the body does not destroy the soul. This can only mean that they are separate. This is the only logical conclusion of this verse.

What you are saying here is that God is able to destroy eternal life. Is that correct? But you state below: "Either it is immortal and will continue on or it is mortal because it can be destroyed."

Which is it? If God can destroy the soul, then the verse is not talking about eternal life, according to what you have stated. This of course implodes your whole argument regarding Matt. 10:28.

guibox said:
You are contradicting yourself.
Yeah, that didn't make sense. I am quite certain I meant to say "if the soul is mortal, why conclude that it will remain mortal?"

And I'll ask again: define "eternal punishment".

guibox said:
If God chooses not to kill man (the biblical punishment for sin) but makes his soul continue to be immortal, then He is directly setting sinners up to spend eternity in hell and thus must take responsibility for it. If God created hell for no redemptive or reformative purpose and can destroy man there but chooses to let him live for trillions of years...He must take responsibility.
Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premises. If man's soul remains immortal and he goes to hell for eternity, God is no more responsible for that than if man's soul is mortal and it immediately burns up in hell to be no more. Man is already on the way to hell, whether he likes it or not. God has provided the way to keep from going there.

guibox said:
The onus is on you to prove that the 'soul' is an immortal entity of man separate from the body. the Bible doesn't support this, Free. Dodging around it and throwing challenges my way will not change the fact. I have looked at the instances of 'life' and 'soul' and all are interpreted in function and part according to man as a wholistic being (which the Hebrews believed) and not as the Greek's believed.
I have already proved that the soul is a separate entity from the body. Whether it is immortal or mortal at this point in time, I don't know. How about you clear up some of the confusion before we continue.
 
Excuse me but "What Is A Onus" is it something you salute like this
military1.gif


guibox wrote:The onus is on you to prove that the 'soul' is an immortal entity of man separate from the body. the Bible doesn't support this, Free. Dodging around it and throwing challenges my way will not change the fact. I have looked at the instances of 'life' and 'soul' and all are interpreted in function and part according to man as a wholistic being (which the Hebrews believed) and not as the Greek's believed.
 
Free said:
Orion,

You're not reading what I'm writing. No one is denying that there is language in Revelation that is metaphorical but even these metaphors are describing actual persons, places, and events. And not all of the language is metaphorical.

So when I asked you to read Rev. 21 and 22, you should have found a vivid description of what the New Jerusalem looks like. It is not merely a "square cube" (as opposed to those circular cubes?). Even if you want to argue that it is all metaphorical language, which it isn't, it still is describing a particular place that will appear at a particular time.

Likewise, the Lake of Fire is a particular place, the Judgment a particular event, etc. Jesus severely warned of hell, so if it isn't a literal place he was lying.

Thanks for the mean sarcasm there, free. You're quite what I expect out of your everyday Christian. As if you REALLY needed to point out a slip up in my post!! :x
 
Revelation 20-22

-keys to the Abyss. . . (I'd love to see that lock)
-a great chain to bind the dragon
-when the 1,000 years are over, Satan will be released. . . . (why?)
-number of them like the sand on the seashore
-fire came down from heaven (again, the "heaven is 'up in the sky' mindset")
-Satan thrown in the lake of fire (why not do that 1,000 years ago?)
-tormented day an night (does hell exist in a place that rotates on a cyclical basis around a star?)
-a great white throne
-the earth and sky fleeing away
-the sea "gave up" the dead (as if there was a choice)
-death and hades "gave up" the dead (as if there was a choice)
-Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven.... (again, as if heaven is "up there")
-beautifully dressed for her husband. . . .
-He who is seated on the throne...... (Is God ACTUALLY sitting down on some big chair?)
-drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.
-fiery lake of burning sulfur
-seven bowls full of the seven last plagues
-Gates for a city . . . (for what purpose would a city IN HEAVEN need "gates" for?)
-the names of the twelve trives of Israel. . . (even though the Jews deny Jesus as Messiah. :-?)
-walls of jasper. . . city of pure gold . . . precious stones . . .sapphires. . . emeralds. . sardonyx. . .carnelian. . . chrysolite. . . .beryl. . . topaz. . . chrysoprase. . . jacinth. . .amethyst. . . (These are all geological elements of the earth. . . what are they doing in a spiritual realm of heaven? And even IF this place is literally a physical place, why have all the gems and geological elements to give beauty to a city, which could draw away attention from God?)
-the nations will walk by its light. . . . . . (Nations in heaven? Shouldn't there be only one, at that time? They're all in the "same city"?)
-the kings of the earth??? (Kings in heaven???)
-On no day will its gtes ever be shut. . . (so they are there . . why?)
-nothing impure will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is shameful or deceitful. . . . . (will there still be people on the earth that exist outside of this city that can't get in due to their shame and deceit?)
-...the river of the water of life......flowing from the throne of God (already covered) ....down THE MIDDLE OF THE GREAT STREET OF THE CITY. (I'm no city planner, but when your city is in the shape of a cube, where do you find "the middle", and where does it go, since the middle would be quite a ways up. I guess there would be a huge waterfall coming out of one side of the city. This is non-sensical, of course. You could say that the river was at ground floor, . . . but then that wouldn't be "the middle of the city".)
-trees that bear twelve different fruits, one each month. (are we still following a gregorian calendar in heaven?)
-his servants will serve him (what would God need served to him?)
-his name will be on their foreheads.
-wash their robes
-tree of life
-the bright Morning Star

All figurative language. Yet, I'm supposed to believe that this "lake of fire" is one of the literal descriptions? Not a very convincing argument at all.
 
Lets try this, in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth and he said it was good. He then proceeded to create a place for us, "animals vegetation and etc. He did all of this for "us", now enter man add a wife you have a family with God our father. Satan sees this and is furious, he can't create he can't name the animals the way Adam did, so here we have an enemy that is not only angry with God, he is angry with us as well.

Soon he discovers a weak link, the woman Adams wife, at this stage both Adam and Eve are pure and innocent, they have fellowship with God. Satan has a plan,
the plan succeeds, man is now separated from God, Satan has become their new
overseer and sin enters in, God is holy he can't look on sin, man is lost and now on his way to a place prepared for the devil and his angels. This entire scenario is killing God our father his love, the apple of his eye in the hands of all that's evil.

There is a remedy but that remedy comes at a great price, his Son has to leave his throne come here and repair the damage. How to heal separation?...


avatar13177_15.gif
 
If you study the texts very carefully, it was actually Adam who was the weak link.
 
faint.gif

I didn't need to look it up the answer is in the mirror when I look into it.
Are you married? none of my business but I think you get my drift. We marrieds
refer to it as "The Honey Dew's" :wink:
 
Catholic Crusader said:
If you study the texts very carefully, it was actually Adam who was the weak link.
You're right. Both fell but it started with Adam not being the protector, his failure of His duty allowed Eve's temptation.
 
biblecatholic said:
Catholic Crusader said:
If you study the texts very carefully, it was actually Adam who was the weak link.
You're right. Both fell but it started with Adam not being the protector, his failure of His duty allowed Eve's temptation.
I heard Scott Hahn give this FANTASTIC talk on this in particular, and Genesis 1 & 2 in general. I wish I could remember the details. I do know that some of it is near the beginning of this MP3:

http://www.bringyou.to/ScottHahnCatholi ... MPLETE.mp3

There are TONS of MP3s here:
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/audio.htm
 
Orion said:
Free said:
Orion,

You're not reading what I'm writing. No one is denying that there is language in Revelation that is metaphorical but even these metaphors are describing actual persons, places, and events. And not all of the language is metaphorical.

So when I asked you to read Rev. 21 and 22, you should have found a vivid description of what the New Jerusalem looks like. It is not merely a "square cube" (as opposed to those circular cubes?). Even if you want to argue that it is all metaphorical language, which it isn't, it still is describing a particular place that will appear at a particular time.

Likewise, the Lake of Fire is a particular place, the Judgment a particular event, etc. Jesus severely warned of hell, so if it isn't a literal place he was lying.
Thanks for the mean sarcasm there, free. You're quite what I expect out of your everyday Christian. As if you REALLY needed to point out a slip up in my post!! :x
Wow Orion, that is quite the response to some humour. I suppose I could have added a :wink: in there but I figured you would laugh along. Sorry if I offended you, that was certainly not my intention. I just try and keep things somewhat light-hearted within such a serious discussion as this.

Having said that, was Jesus lying?

Orion said:
down THE MIDDLE OF THE GREAT STREET OF THE CITY. (I'm no city planner, but when your city is in the shape of a cube, where do you find "the middle", and where does it go, since the middle would be quite a ways up.
Does the text say "in the middle of the great street of the city" or "the middle of the city"? There is a big difference there that affects your argument.
 
Even if this "great street" was at the ground floor, it is still metaphorical to have a "water of life". If God is the giver of life, we have no need of an actual "river that flows with the water of life".

Yet another of the MOSTLY metaphorical statements in the book of Revelation.
 
Okay, let's assume that the entire book of Revelation is metaphorical.

What is a metaphor and what are they used for?

And again I'll ask: was Jesus lying when he gave numerous, severe warnings about hell?
 
A metaphor is a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance, as in “A mighty fortress is our God.â€Â

They are, of course, open to the enterpretation of the reader, . . . which is problematic, obviously, since we have so many denominations under the heading of "Christianity". "Fire" is used to strip away the impurities. What comes out is either pure, . . . . or is that which is completely consumed. This metaphor describe how a person will be "exposed to that which purifies", and if nothing remains, then it is all smoke, then it's gone. This "Lake of Fire" could very well be something eternal, but it isn't a phsical place, but the eternal aspect of God which purifies those who stand before this diety. Remember that even our own "works" are "tried by fire".

As for what Jesus said about hell, I would say to discuss that with DM or those like him who have studied it to a great extent.
 
Free said:
....And again I'll ask: was Jesus lying when he gave numerous, severe warnings about hell?
If I can say something: I don't think it its fair to preface a statement by asking "Was Jesus lying when He said....."

I think everyone here agrees that Jesus never lied. The problem comes with poor reading of the scriptures.

As for me: Hell exists, and it is forever, because your soul is immortal and goes on forever
 
Catholic Crusader said:
As for me: Hell exists, and it is forever, because your soul is immortal and goes on forever

And this is the very crux of the argument. The Bible doesn't support the idea of the immortal soul. This is not Hebrew or Christian. This is Platonic Greek dualism.

Even if you could say that the 'soul is immortal', nowhere in the Bible does it say that the wicked receive eternal life or immortality in any fashion. Salvation is a gift of God for the righteous, not the wicked.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Only the righteous recieve eternal life. The opposite is to 'perish'. What does this 'perishing' mean?
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord

Death for the wicked, eternal life for the righteous.
John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
John 6:58
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever."

Being tormented eternally is 'living forever' and having 'eternal life'.

Rather we see that the wicked will be 'destroyed', face 'destruction' be 'burnt up' left 'neither root nor branch', will 'consume away into smoke' 'be left as ashes under the soul of your feet' and 'shall be as if they had not been'.

All of the above references are found in the OT and NT in describing the opposite of eternal life for the righteous.

Notice that in 1 Corinthians 15, the righteous are resurrected to eternal life:

For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?

The righteous are resurrected to eternal life. The wicked are never given this privilege.

Rather they are still sinful and 'the wages of sin is death'. Death is not life. Death is the OPPOSITE of life. It is not eternal miserable existence as a destitute immortal soul.

The bible doesn't support this view one iota!

The problem is that people go into the bible with this assumption that the soul is immortal, read a passage like Revelation 14:10-11 and then go outward from that with that interpretation and assumption in mind. This is a false way of bible study. The evidence of the rest of the scriptures must interpret the highly symbolic meaning of this passage, not the other way around.

Isaiah 34:9-10
Psalms 37:10,20,36
Isaiah 66:24
Jeremiah 17:27
1 Samuel 1:21,27

All of these texts interpret the NT imagery in terms of complete annihilation and utter destruction, not eternal torment

Finally look at Malachi 4:1,2, 2 Peter 2:6 and 2 Peter 3:10

or, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
3And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up

My friends, it doesn't get any clearer than that and I haven't touched on ALL the texts in the OT that show that the wicked will be completely and utterly destroyed in the afterlife.
 
A Quote from:
"The Hell There Is"

located at:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp

The doctrine of hell is so frightening that numerous heretical sects end up denying the reality of an eternal hell. The Unitarian-Universalists, the Seventh-Day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the Christadelphians, the Christian Scientists, the Religious Scientists, the New Agers, and the Mormonsâ€â€all have rejected or modified the doctrine of hell so radically that it is no longer a serious threat. In recent decades, this decay has even invaded mainstream Evangelicalism, and a number of major Evangelical figures have advocated the view that there is no eternal hellâ€â€the wicked will simply be annihilated.

But the eternal nature of hell is stressed in the New Testament. For example, in Mark 9:47–48 Jesus warns us, "t is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where the worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." And in Revelation 14:11, we read: "And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Hell is not just a theoretical possibility. Jesus warns us that real people go there. He says, "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few" (Matt. 7:13–14).

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, ‘eternal fire.’ The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs" (CCC 1035).

In his 1994 book, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II wrote that too often "preachers, catechists, teachers . . . no longer have the courage to preach the threat of hell" (p. 183).

Concerning the reality of hell, the pope says, "In point of fact, the ancient councils rejected the theory . . . according to which the world would be regenerated after destruction, and every creature would be saved; a theory which abolished hell. . . . [T]he words of Christ are unequivocal. In Matthew’s Gospel he speaks clearly of those who will go to eternal punishment (cf. Matt. 25:46). [But] who will these be? The Church has never made any pronouncement in this regard" (pp. 185–6).

Thus the issue that some will go to hell is decided, but the issue of who in particular will go to hell is undecided.

The early Church Fathers were also absolutely firm on the reality of an eternal hell



source:
http://www.catholic.com/library/Hell_There_Is.asp
 
spanishI.gif

As long as your talking reality, lets talk about that period known as "The Dark Ages"
A time when Monarchs were in great fear of the Pope and the power he yielded,
and now into the not to distant future a new Inquisition will begin. There will be
no stopping it only this time Satan will step up the severity knowing that he has but
a short time. Think about it, finally all the pain and suffering will be no more and the
glory of God will be the order of the day Hallelujah!
 
Orion said:
A metaphor is a figure of speech in which a term or phrase is applied to something to which it is not literally applicable in order to suggest a resemblance,
Right. And does it then follow that that to which the metaphor is applied is not literal?

Orion said:
“A mighty fortress is our God.â€Â
As an example for my question, does the metaphor that God resembles a "mighty fortress" mean that God does not exist?

Orion said:
This "Lake of Fire" could very well be something eternal, but it isn't a phsical place, but the eternal aspect of God which purifies those who stand before this diety. Remember that even our own "works" are "tried by fire".
Post the relevant passage(s) from Revelation which mention the Lake of Fire we'll compare them to those that speak of the purifying fire of God and see if they are one and the same.


guibox,

One thing at a time. Matthew 10:28 shows that man has a soul which can exist apart from his body. It says nothing about it being eternal but it is enough to poke a serious hole in your position.

Anything you want to add (or subtract)?

Mat 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell"
 
Just a reminder that this topic is about Hell. Any other discussion needs to be in a new thread in the appropriate forum.

Thanks. :)
 
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