Hell

[bibleberean]

"Nevermind the rest of the unscriptural concepts of 'Abraham's Bosom', a great gulf between paradise and hell'."


Jesus doesn't teach unscriptural concepts as truth...


Jesus said....

Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Luke 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

I am going to take Jesus at His word.

Jesus corpse was buried.

The penitent thief on the cross was dead too.

And yet...

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I don't have to rewrite the bible to change the clear meaning here.

 

[McQuacks]

Luke 16 is the ONLY scripture in the entire bible that speaks of 'torment' at death.

I don't believe that we should disregard this story because it may be the only place that Hades is mentioned as a place of torment. Jesus clearly meant something by it, and I believe we should take Him at His word.

In regards to Jesus telling the thief that he would be with Him that day in paradise, from our understanding of Hades by the story of Lazarus, Jesus seems to be saying that Hades has TWO compartments, one which is "Abraham's bossom" (paradise) and the other, which is a place of "torment."

In this story, Jesus described an unrighteous man being tormented in Hades, and this man looked "up" and saw Abraham far away. This passage seems to indicate that Hades consisted of two "compartments" before the cross. In one compartment the unrighteous are being held and tormented until Judgment Day, but there was another compartment in which the righteous were held in comfort until the cross (we'll see what happened to this compartment later). Between these two compartments there was some kind of "chasm" which made it impossible for people to travel from one compartment to the other, and this seems to imply that unrighteous people will not have a second chance to receive salvation after they die. http://www.layhands.com/DidJesusGoToHell.htm

In regards to Hades being also a place of paradise:

Now that we have a better understanding of what the Bible says about Hades and the Lake of Fire, I think we can agree that after Jesus died He did not go to the Lake of Fire to be tormented forever. Therefore, the question at the top of this article can be re-worded as, "Did Jesus go to Hades after He died?"
Before we try to answer this question, there is one more "place" that we need to know about. This place is called "Paradise," and here are some things that Bible scholars say about Paradise:
"In paradise - The place where the souls of the righteous remain from death till the resurrection." (Wesley's Explanatory Notes, verse 43, emphasis added)
"In the Jewish theology, the department of Hades where the blessed souls await the resurrection; and therefore equivalent to Abraham's bosom (Luk_16:22, Luk_16:23)." (Vincent's Word Studies, from http://www.e-sword.net/commentaries.html, Luke 23:43, emphasis added)
"In later Jewish usage and in the NT, paradeisos is used for the abode of the blessed after death. Paradise, before Christ's resurrection, has been thought to be the region of the blessed in Hades although it was not specifically called by that name (Luke 16:23)." (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.1102, emphasis added)
So Paradise was the section of Hades in which Abraham and the other righteous people were waiting in comfort until the cross.

The thief, Jesus, and "paradise":

In Luke 23:39-43 (above), notice that while Jesus hung on the cross He said to one of the thieves on a cross next to Him, "today you will be with me in paradise." Jesus' death and resurrection had not happened yet, and the Church had not yet been born, so the repentant thief did not become a Christian. Rather, he became an Old Testament saint by his faith. Therefore, after his death the repentant thief went to be with Abraham in Hades, and that place is what Jesus called "Paradise." In fact, Jesus went to Paradise as well, because Jesus told the thief, "today you will be with me in paradise."

So the weight of evidence supports the view that Jesus went to Paradise on the day that He died, which is where Abraham and the other Old Testament saints were. Since Paradise was a compartment within Hades, this means that Jesus went to Hades after He died.

Since Hades wasn't Heaven yet, Jesus was not yet with His Father, which makes sense with what He said to Mary, while still being true to the thief.

And hopefully the last quote from that page (lol):

What Happened to Paradise?
The evidence so far seems to indicate that Hades had one compartment for the unrighteous and another compartment called Paradise for the righteous (and possibly another compartment called Tartarus for certain fallen angels). Now let's look at what a prominent New Testament Greek dictionary says about Hades:
"In Acts 2:27, 31, the word Hades occurs in a quotation from Ps. 16:10 in an application of OT faith in the advent of Christ, His death, and His resurrection. Therefore, it has again the meaning of the world of the departed into which Christ passed like other men, but only to transform its nature from a place accommodating both believers and unbelievers to one for unbelievers only" (The Complete Word Study Dictionary of the New Testament, Spiros Zodhiates, p.81, emphasis added)
This expresses the view that after Jesus died He went to Hades, and then He took the "Paradise compartment" of Hades (along with all of the righteous people in that compartment) up into Heaven.

We know from other scriptures that after Christ's resurrection, believers now go to God's kingdom, not another paradise. They can now go to the home of God.

First of all, the problem with your interpretation is that Christ didn't go to heaven at death, that the thief asked Christ to 'remember him when you COME into your kingdom' speaking of the second coming, and that the Greek didn't have any punctuation.

Refer to the above and to Free's point about punctuation.

Free made a good point here about the soul:

It certainly means more than just "living being," although that is one of its meanings.

We're not denying Gen. 2:7 is speaking of a living being, you are right in the interpretation. I do not believe that it is telling us what man is not, only what he is...There are plenty of examples in scripture of soul (nephesh) being used for things other than "living being," and to limit it to that interpretation only, I feel, would be limiting our understanding of scripture.
Matthew 10:28, Rev. 6:9-10, Acts 7:59, Luke 20:38, 1 Thess. 5:23, James 2:26, 2 Cor. 5:6-8, all speak of the soul as seperate from the body.
-McQ 8-)

 

[bibleberean]

Well said McQ! :D

 

[SputnikBoy]

Well said McQ! :D

Sputnik: It's 'well said' because it supports your belief. No offense but, in actuality, it's rather nonsensical. That you guys can take the story that Jesus told to those of His day about The Rich Man and Lazarus as being a literal account astounds me. As far as I know (and please correct me if I'm wrong), Abraham's Bosom is not used any other place in the Bible. Therefore, we can only speculate as to what Jesus meant when he used this term.

And, it's BECAUSE we have no scriptural explanation for what Abraham's Bosom is that we have to assume for ourselves that it had to do with a popular belief of Jesus' day that we today are unfamiliar with. Jesus evidently used that particular belief around which to build a story that the people would understand. WE of today are NOT those people to whom Jesus was telling the story. We have absolutely no reason to come up with strange theories as to what Abraham's Bosom is supposed to be, nor to put these theories into dictionaries as though fact. It's silly!

The story Jesus told His listeners had little to do with the doctrine of WHAT happens at death. It had nothing to do with WHERE heaven and hell are geographically located. It had EVERYTHING to do with HOW one finds heaven while another does not. At the very end of the story Jesus presents the punchline. He says, "If they (the rich man's brethren) do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead (Luke 16:31)."

So, the gist of the story is NOT to proclaim a literal place for the righteous and the damned. The gist of the story is to highlight the fact that there is indeed a heaven to be gained and a hell to be shunned. The point is also made that the great chasm between the two cannot be crossed. And, the 'secret' for one's not finishing up with 'the rich man' seems to revolve around Moses and the Prophets. It's this point, perhaps, that we should be more concentrating on.

The people to whom Jesus told the story would no doubt have grasped the purpose for the telling. Yes, there is indeed a heaven to be gained and a hell to be shunned but there is no reason to rewrite the scriptures based on a mere parable.

 

[McQuacks]

Josephus mentions Abraham's bossom, speaking of it as a Jewish belief. Here's a quote from him about Hades:

"Now as to Hades, wherein the souls of the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, where the light of this world does not shine . . . This region is allowed as a place of custody for souls, in which angels are appointed as guardians to them. . . .the just are guided to the right hand, and are led with hymns sung by the angels appointed over that place, unto a region of light. . . with whom there is no place of toil, no burning heat, no piercing cold,. . . while they wait for that rest and eternal new life in heaven, which is to succeed this region. This place we call The Bosom of Abraham. But as to the unjust, they are dragged by force to the left hand, by the angels allotted for punishment, no longer going with a good will. . . Now those angels that are set over these souls, drag them into the neighborhood of hell itself; who, when they are hard by it, continually hear the noise of it, and do not stand clear of the hot vapour itself; but when they have a nearer view of this spectacle, as of a terrible and exceeding great prospect of fire, they are struck with a fearful expectation of a future judgment, and in effect punished thereby. . . even hereby are they punished; for a chasm deep and large is fixed between them; insomuch that a just man that hath compassion upon them, cannot be admitted, nor can one that is unjust, if he were bold enough to attempt it, pass over it." (Josephus Complete Works, trans. by William Whiston, p.637)

http://www.bible.ca/H-hades.htm

Without exception all parable are based upon REALITY not fantasy. Arians must explain why Jesus would confirm "Jewish fables/myths". (see Titus 1:14 "not paying attention to Jewish myths/fables")

http://www.bible.ca/su-hades-luke16.htm
Why would Jesus include "Abraham's bossom" in the story if it was untrue? Wouldn't He have rather wanted to use this story to speak the truth about death, a very important concept, rather than support something that He knew was false? I do not think He would willingly teach something or support something that He knew was false.
-McQ 8-)

 

[SputnikBoy]

Jesus may well have used a myth of the day to expound on a major point. He wasn't conducting a seminar in politically correct theology. He was speaking to 'average Joes' in their own language. Please, allow Jesus some human qualities and latitude, folks. Jesus remained sinless throughout His life but He also needed to relate to we sinners. I think the Abraham's Bosom 'myth' was an example of how He was able to accomplish this. Remember, even though WE might be arguing this issue today, Jesus' audience no doubt caught the gist of the parable.

 

[McQuacks]

What do you believe the point is of the story?

Paul told Christians to not give "heed to Jewish fables." (Titus 1:14). Yes, you are right in that Jesus used common things to relate to people. His parables were meant to teach the truth though. Would He go to the extent of using something that He knows is completely untrue? In my opinion Jesus took every opportunity to show truth, and to reveal falsehoods, not to preach false doctrines, especially when He knew they were of the Pharisees (which we know that the belief in Abraham's bossom was a teaching of the Pharisee's from Josephus). If He knew that this belief of the Pharisees' was false, I find it hard to reconcile Him using it with Matthew 23.
Anyway, this will probably come down to opinions, as most debates do, and we'll just have to agree to disagree and let the other hold their opinion.
-McQ 8-)

 

[guibox]

In regards to Jesus telling the thief that he would be with Him that day in paradise, from our understanding of Hades by the story of Lazarus, Jesus seems to be saying that Hades has TWO compartments, one which is "Abraham's bossom" (paradise) and the other, which is a place of "torment."

And nowhere in the scripture will you see this supported. Hades is the equivalent of the Hebrew Sheol. Sheol was the 'abode of the dead', the 'grave'. There is no consciousness in Sheol/Hades and the rest of scripture bears this out with the remaining uses of 'Hades' (or at the least, doesn't render the meaning of 'conscious torment'.

What we have here is people basing their theology from eisegetical study of Luke 16 (studying from the inward-out) and using this text to interpret the rest of scripture. Rather, the bulk of evidence is at best, not supportive of Luke 16, and at worst, completely contradictory of it.

In this story, Jesus described an unrighteous man being tormented in Hades, and this man looked "up" and saw Abraham far away. This passage seems to indicate that Hades consisted of two "compartments" before the cross. In one compartment the unrighteous are being held and tormented until Judgment Day, but there was another compartment in which the righteous were held in comfort until the cross (we'll see what happened to this compartment later). Between these two compartments there was some kind of "chasm" which made it impossible for people to travel from one compartment to the other, and this seems to imply that unrighteous people will not have a second chance to receive salvation after they die. http://www.layhands.com/DidJesusGoToHell.htm

What we have here is not biblical interpretation, but Hellenistic Jewish philosophy influenced by the Greeks.

The question is not: "Is it biblically truth of life after death?"

A mere cursory study of the scriptures will show this to be completely wrong.

The question is: "Why did Christ use such a philosophy?"

See the link at the end of this thread.

So Paradise was the section of Hades in which Abraham and the other righteous people were waiting in comfort until the cross.

And the Bible shows from David and Job to Martha and Paul that ALL saints are awaiting the same resurrection which occurs at the end of the age at Christ's second coming.

Acts 2:27-34 shows that David is still dead and buried
Job 14:10-14 and Daniel 12:1 reiterate the resurrection of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16 and not some pre-resurrection event at Christ's death and resurrection.

"As in Adam ALL die (right from beginning), so in Christ shall ALL be made alive...but every man in their own order, first Christ the first fruits, then they that are Christ's at His coming" 1 Corinthians 15

"Marvel not at this in the which ALL that are in their graves shall hear His voice and come forth...those that have done good unto the resurrection of life, those that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation' - John 5:28-29

** See Daniel 12:1, Revelation 20; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55

The evidence so far seems to indicate that Hades had one compartment for the unrighteous and another compartment called Paradise for the righteous (and possibly another compartment called Tartarus for certain fallen angels).

The evidence of ONLY Luke 16 indicates it, not of the rest of the scripture. Hades and Sheol are the equivalent of the 'grave' where there is no consciousness.

Free made a good point here about the soul: [quote:880be]It certainly means more than just "living being," although that is one of its meanings.

We're not denying Gen. 2:7 is speaking of a living being, you are right in the interpretation. I do not believe that it is telling us what man is not, only what he is...There are plenty of examples in scripture of soul (nephesh) being used for things other than "living being," and to limit it to that interpretation only, I feel, would be limiting our understanding of scripture.
Matthew 10:28, Rev. 6:9-10, Acts 7:59, Luke 20:38, 1 Thess. 5:23, James 2:26, 2 Cor. 5:6-8, all speak of the soul as seperate from the body.
-McQ 8-)

[/quote:880be]

The point is, is that NOWHERE in the scripture is the term 'nephesh/psuche' mean 'immortal'. The 'soul' is not immortal and the language of the word itself, nevermind the usage, never means 'immortal'

As for the meaning of the Rich Man and Lazarus, please look at this thread...

Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus

 

[SputnikBoy]

This (the belief in a literal hell) involves one of those areas of the human mind where one will usually adhere to the first belief they ever heard, despite evidence to the contrary. Few of us care to be proven wrong or to change a cherished belief or to be even challenged about our beliefs.

There are also those who sincerely believe that present-day criminals should actually 'suffer torment' for their crimes in prison as though incarceration in and of itself is not punishment enough. A daily flogging for a criminal may, in fact, seem to them like a good idea. These folks may likewise apply that same line of thought to God in regard to hell. That God would 'merely zap' someone out of existence without inflicting literal eternal punishment on them for their unrighteousness is beyond the thinking of some. To their way of thinking, that isn't enough. How sad.

So often the things that we humans attribute to a spiritual God are the very things that lurk within our own hearts. If one desires that criminals should suffer for eternity, then that's what they believe that God will - and SHOULD - also inflict on the unrighteous. And, they will no doubt come up with a few ambiguous scriptures that APPEAR to support their idea of a literal 'eternal hell'. The scriptural FACTS, however, don't support this concept. I really do hope that no one is TOO disappointed.