Hell

[jess321]

i believe it is the eternal separation from God. and i believe that i will not be there. (in 'hell')

 

[John the Baptist]

i believe it is the eternal separation from God. and i believe that i will not be there. (in 'hell')

Just a quick thought? About living as immortal sinners, will God give a sabbatical every now and then for them to eat of the tree of life?

---John

 

[jess321]

no offence sir, i am not trying to be disrespectful, but i'm not quite sure i understand what you are trying to say? :D

 

[Scott]

What kind of fuel are Satan, Antichrist and False Prophet running on?! ;-) See Revelation 20:10

Just a quick thought? About living as immortal sinners, will God give a sabbatical every now and then for them to eat of the tree of life?

Revelation 20:13-14

Notice the seperation of death and Hades from those they formerly held captive. Revelation 20:15 further shows the individual depature of each soul sentenced to Hell.

This is also consistent with 1 Corinthians 15:26.

 

[John the Baptist]

no offence sir, i am not trying to be disrespectful, but i'm not quite sure i understand what you are trying to say? :D

******
Hi, please don't think that when the Word corrects me, that I take offense! :fadein: 2 Timothy 3:16.

What does the Word of God mean in Ezekiel 18:4 & Ezekiel 18:20 & Ezekiel 18:32

---John

 

[Vic C.]

What kind of fuel are Satan, Antichrist and False Prophet running on?! ;-) See Revelation 20:10

Fumes! Soon to be 'running on empty'. :-D

Revelation 20:13-14

Notice the seperation of death and Hades from those they formerly held captive. Revelation 20:15 further shows the individual depature of each soul sentenced to Hell.

This is also consistent with 1 Corinthians 15:26.

Why were they seperated? They needed to be judged. Death and Hades were not subjected to judgement; at least judgement as we know it. Where did they eventually wind up? Same place as Death and Hades... the lake of fire. What is the lake of fire or should I say, what does it represent? The second death. The real question (which I threw out there to Sputnik on the previous page) is, how long is this time in the Lake? Is it forever or a split second or an undefined period of time? :-D

 

[Scott]

Scott wrote:
What kind of fuel are Satan, Antichrist and False Prophet running on?! See Revelation 20:10

Fumes! Soon to be 'running on empty'.

My comment was in reference to JtB's idea that in order for the dead to remain living througout eternity, they must eat from the tree of life every so often. Revelation 20:10 gives no evidence that the unHoly trinity eats from the tree nor do they find an end to their torment.

Why were they seperated?

1 Corinthians 15:26

What is the lake of fire or should I say, what does it represent? The second death.

Lets not forget the big question here. Is the first death equivalent to the 2nd death, or atleast similar. If we just assume it is then our understanding of Hell will be taken in an entirely different direction and possibly misunderstanding their difference. We are given no indication that they are the same. However, we do know that the aforementioned trio will be spending their eternal days there (Revelation 19:20, 20:10 & Matthew 25:41). So to answer your last question about its duration, we are given direct evidence that Hell is eternal (at least for some). Whether that is the same fate for all, I'm not completely convinced. I am well aware of Revelation 20:12 & Matthew 18:34-35.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I think "rod" is just a word for a blunt instrument.

Sputnik: No reason to insult me, Free. I've been called many things in my time but NEVER a blunt instrument until now!

Rod :wink:

 

[John the Baptist]

Genesis 3:22 "And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, least he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: ..." And verse 24 tells what the Godhead did!! :o

One might read Revelation 22:1-3 to see that mankind has non/conditional immortality at that time because sin will not arise a second time. :fadein: Nahum 1:9.

It is not possible to live on in hell for ever without eating of the tree of life! And there is NO SUCH GOSPEL!!
One might do a retake on John's descriptive writing, to see that he calls it..
"This is the second death". Revelation 20:14

It was not only Paul's words for description, that 2 Peter 3:15 states, but also.. "they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scripture, unto their own destruction." (it is the others that we need to worry about, the devil's ETERNAL BURNING HELL TEACHING! : and it seems that these ones just follow one all around to, huh?)

---John

 

[Scott]

and it seems that these ones just follow one all around to, huh?)

I am a man who WILL speak up when I disagree. If I'm wrong, then I'd like to find out where and why I'm wrong. I don't leave discussions because I can't adequately defend my position. Otherwise what's the point, nothing gained and nothing learned. But hey, thats just me. :-?

It is not possible to live on in hell for ever without eating of the tree of life!

Romans 5:12, death is the result of sin. It does not say death is the result of not eating from the tree.

So you are in fact implying Satan has been eating from the tree of life all this time, right!!? You have proof to back that up right?!!

 

[John the Baptist]

So you are in fact implying Satan has been eating from the tree of life all this time, right!!? You have proof to back that up right?!!
_________________

John here: No, that is not what was said. But the point is, why do you not find the answer for yourself? Proof you say? Why do you want proof from me. In fact, I like the 'old' Scott better than this one, you know, everything was blamed on E.G.W. and your anti Adventism hobby horse.

Verses are posted up & never even a hint is given for there error in understanding. And you are now asking for verses for what purpose? When God states a fact, you argue with me. See Titus 3 something. In other words we just flat out do not see anything much to talk about!

The real question that you are deliberately (???) side stepping (forum!) is the question of satan having immortal life, to not die in your hell doctrine. And you know that he does not. Or are you not going to acknowledge that God tells the Truth this time? :
1 Timothy 6:16 or 1 Timothy 1:17. What ever?? Maybe Luke 12:47-48?? :o

 

[Scott]

John here: No, that is not what was said. But the point is, why do you not find the answer for yourself?

I already know the answer to the question I asked you. I'm just hoping to see if you answer with proof or send me on an Easter egg hunt in scriptures that changes the subject and avoids the question. That's ok, I'll play your game.

In regards to which Scott you like better.... since we haven't had very many discussions in quite awhile (with exception of the Sabbath thread), I don't see how you'd like any of what I have to bring to the table. You surely didn't like the me in that Sabbath thread. You brought up some very interesting points, but you were also presented with some very tough refutes to your points while you were also given many things to think about. I do notice you really don't spend much time refuting posts, you are more about carrying on with (let me use your word here....) agenda. But you surprised me when you walked away from the discussion, and you did it while you were posed with some pretty tough questions still on the board. Maybe it was a regroup, just a way to avoid saying something to hurt your case. If thats the case, I'm ready to learn or teach whenever you are.

When God states a fact, you argue with me.

More often than not, you say something not backed up by scripture and you get a big testy when you are questioned about its validity. Don't feel bad if I don't hang on your every word. I'm not interested in smoke and mirrors. Many times when you do post a verse, it doesn't have anything to do with the subject at hand.

And you know that he does not.

Revelation 20:10 says otherwise. The burden of proof is on you.

 

[Vic C.]

Revelation 20:10 says otherwise. The burden of proof is on you.

Hey Scott, while I know this was not directed at me; I'd like to explain my reasons for why I believe what I believe...

Lately, I have been abandoning more contemporary translations and interpretations (even the KJ in some cases) for a more literal interpretation. I have been using the LITV (which is a literal translation of the Textus Receptus)

It translales the verse above like this...

10 And the Devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they were tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

My "Literal English Translation Bible" reads like this...

10. And the Devil misleading them was thrown into the Lake of Fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet {were}. And they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

The YLT as well as Darby's read the same. (ages of the ages) Even the AMP adds "ages of the ages" in (*) at the end...

10Then the devil who had led them astray [deceiving and seducing them] was hurled into the fiery lake of burning brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (through the ages of the ages).

Wycliffe reads "into worlds of worlds", whatever that means. LOL

While I certainly don't come to the same conclusions our UR folks come up with, I do see this as a undetermined, yet finite period of time.

Peace,
Vic

 

[John the Baptist]

Revelation 20:10 says otherwise. The burden of proof is on you.

Hey Scott, while I know this was not directed at me; I'd like to explain my reasons for why I believe what I believe...

Lately, I have been abandoning more contemporary translations and interpretations (even the KJ in some cases) for a more literal interpretation. I have been using the LITV (which is a literal translation of the Textus Receptus)

It translales the verse above like this...

10 And the Devil leading them astray was thrown into the Lake of Fire and Brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were. And they were tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

My "Literal English Translation Bible" reads like this...

10. And the Devil misleading them was thrown into the Lake of Fire and sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet {were}. And they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

The YLT as well as Darby's read the same. (ages of the ages) Even the AMP adds "ages of the ages" in (*) at the end...

10Then the devil who had led them astray [deceiving and seducing them] was hurled into the fiery lake of burning brimstone, where the beast and false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever (through the ages of the ages).

Wycliffe reads "into worlds of worlds", whatever that means. LOL

While I certainly don't come to the same conclusions our UR folks come up with, I do see this as a undetermined, yet finite period of time.

Peace,
Vic

*******

Any translation 'not understood' makes the Godhead out as liars when Obadiah 16 is tossed! "... and they shall be as though THEY HAD NOT BEEN."

As quoted to another: The real question that you are deliberately (???) side stepping (forum!) is the question of satan having immortal life, to not die in your hell doctrine. And you know that he does not. Or are you not going to acknowledge that God tells the Truth this time?
1 Timothy 6:16 or 1 Timothy 1:17. What ever?? Maybe Luke 12:47-48??

But just keep on studying??? Is that the answer???? You see, I have passed that stage of looking, & just keep on looking, looking at the devils lies of Genesis 3:4 +!. The Godhead all say that the soul shall DIE! Ezekiel 18:20 & Ezekiel 18:4 & then comes reams & reams of something that we are to study??? :

The POINT! The Godhead states that ONLY THEY HAVE IMMORTALITY!

And angels? They too are created! And man, a little lower than angels.
Tree of life for one & not the other, that violates Ecclesiastes 1:9-19 & Ecclesiastes 3:15! Again, [IF] one BELIEVES the GODHEAD?? (Who say's NOTHING NEW) If there is? We are told!

Similar food for conditional immortality? Surely, CONDITIONAL! Had one ever read of angels food? The [CORN OF HEAVEN!!]
The King James states: "And rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven. Man did eat angels food: He sent them meat to the full." Psalms 78:24-25.
And the others? Nehemiah 9:20-21. From the Holy Spirit to what the angels in heaven eat! And the ones on earth who are dying? Mark 9:25, Luke 11:14 +!

And what effect did that have on Caleb? (+)
In Joshua 14:7-8 & Joshua 14:10-11 finds something supernatural? (for 40 years!)

It seems that most are still in the wilderness, eating junk food, huh?
---John

 

[John the Baptist]

HELL??
Is there never a place that the person can get off of the milk or the pacifying stage of Hebrews 5:11-14 and believe God???
The Godhead say, that THEY ONLY HAVE IMMORTALITY!!!!!! "WHO ONLY HATH IMMORTALITY, .." 1 Timothy 6:16.

INSPIRATION say's [IF]!! If what? Colossians1:23 states the [CONDITION].
"IF ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister." And most do not even know why Christ did not come back at this documented & promised time! Matthew 24:14. :

And HELL is not part of The ETERNAL Gospel? Revelation 14:6, huh? 'Ye shall not surely die' satan states in Genesis 3:4

---John

 

[Free]

Vic,

Hey Scott, while I know this was not directed at me; I'd like to explain my reasons for why I believe what I believe...
While I certainly don't come to the same conclusions our UR folks come up with, I do see this as a undetermined, yet finite period of time.

While I know this was not directed at me ;) , I'd like to point out that you have some explaining to do based on the following verses (and I could have added several more):

Php 4:20, "Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen." (NASB)

Php 4:20, "and to God, even our Father, [is] the glory -- to the ages of the ages. Amen." (YLT)


Rev 4:9-10, "9 And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, 10 the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying," (NASB)

Rev 4:9-10, "9 and when the living creatures do give glory, and honour, and thanks, to Him who is sitting upon the throne, who is living to the ages of the ages, 10 fall down do the twenty and four elders before Him who is sitting upon the throne, and bow before Him who is living to the ages of the ages, and they cast their crowns before the throne, saying," (YLT)


Rev 10:6, "and swore by Him who lives forever and ever, WHO CREATED HEAVEN AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN IT, AND THE SEA AND THE THINGS IN IT, that there will be delay no longer," (NASB)

Rev 10:6, "and did swear in Him who doth live to the ages of the ages, who did create the heaven and the things in it, and the land and the things in it, and the sea and the things in it -- that time shall not be yet," (YLT)


Rev 11:15, "Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.'" (NASB)

Rev 11:15, "And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, `The kingdoms of the world did become [those] of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!'" (YLT)


Rev 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (NASB)

Rev 14:11, "and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages; and they have no rest day and night, who are bowing before the beast and his image, also if any doth receive the mark of his name." (YLT)


Rev 20:10, "And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (NASB)

Rev 20:10, "10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages." (YLT)


Does God live "forever and ever" or just unto "the ages of the ages"? Will Christ have dominion "forever and ever" or just unto "the ages of the ages"?

 

[stovebolts]

Sorry for jumping in late...

What is the lake of fire or should I say, what does it represent? The second death. The real question (which I threw out there to Sputnik on the previous page) is, how long is this time in the Lake? Is it forever or a split second or an undefined period of time?

If you know the answer, please reveal as I too hold this question.

As far as I can tell, an age is defined by a rulers reign. For example, we had the Davidic reign, the Herodian reign, the Ramesses Dynasty which consisted of many ages to create an age... So I suppose it's all in how you divide it up...
http://www.crystalinks.com/egyptdynasties.html

As far as ages of ages... I can only assume that this would include all of the ages regardless of who was reigning. Now, you would know better than I and I'm probably a bit confused here, but isn't Christ going to reign with a new name that we don't yet know for an age? Then, won't a new age start after all of his enemies are placed under his footstool? Then what happens next, a new age? and on and on and on...

Anyway, I'm outta my league here, but curious none the less.

 

[guibox]

I think we shouldn't get caught up in interpreting how long 'ages of ages' is according to Christ's reign but according to who it applies to and how the bible uses it.

The terms 'forever and ever' are used differently in the Bible when applying to different people. Therefore, despite Free's attempts to link them together, we cannot interpret each instance of 'forever and ever' to be the same thing despite the same word usage.

What we can decide is that 'ages of the ages' is an unspecified period of time. It MAY be for all eternity, but not by its very linguistic nature and not in all instances.

Samuel was told that he was to serve God in the house of the Lord 'forever'. This is later reiterated with 'As long as his life lasts, he will serve the Lord'. Rulers are said to rule their kingdoms 'forever'. However we see that this has a temporal meaning.

When 'forever and ever' applies to God or the righteous in the New Kingdom, we see that this is never ending for they have been given the gift of immortality at the resurrection.

AGAIN..the wicked are still mortal as they suffer the wages of sin which is death. They are not given immortality as it is a gift to the righteous and not to the wicked. This is why they experience the 'second death' in Revelation.

Hence, when 'forever' applies to them, it must be

1) an unspecified period
2) finite as they do not have eternal life

 

[Scott]

Excellent posts Free & Stovebolts!! I've been thinking over the words "ages of the ages" the last couple of days despite not having a lot time to post anything.

Based solely on the words themselves Vic, I'm really puzzled as how you took them to mean a finite period of time. My first thoughts were of the "King of the ages" (Revelation 15:3). King of all time or King of the finite number of ages? Jude 1:25 implies the ages aren't finite and subject to God's authority.

Finally, Isaiah 45:17 really dispells any doubt that the ages are not infinite. As the verse ends in 'to ages everlasting'.

 

[Vic C.]

While I know this was not directed at me , I'd like to point out that you have some explaining to do based on the following verses (and I could have added several more):

That's fair. Even though I didn't do the actual translating of the YLT or the LITV, I will explain. First off, I was in err for using the YLT in my post. We know it has a UR slant to it. It has been suggested that Young was a UR. That being the case, he has to insert "ages of the ages" EVERYWHERE something is translated as "forever and ever". Just like many English Bibles insert "Forever and ever" everyplace "ages" is used. Why? Becasue if they didn't, it would contradict their doctrines. There isn't an agenda to worry about with the LITV. Jay Green's only desire was to produce a Literal interpretation of the TR.

http://www.kconline.com/paul/litv/litv_unq.htm
(In addition, every precaution was taken to preserve the particulars of the text; each verb is carefully scrutinized to maintain its tense, number, voice and mood; the case of each noun examined to retain its proper function in sentence; each participle carefully translated to preserve its aspect. Sense words (words added by the translator to make a sentence more intelligible) are kept to an absolute minimum without sacrificing readability, and when used are always bracketed so that you know which words are God's and which are the translator's. You won't find a more literal rendition of the very words of God in any other version (not even in the NASB)!)

I was just showing that the YLT in this case, (my previous post) is in line with the literal TR. You can see that the LITV uses 'ages' where appropriate and 'forever' where the translation fits. Here are a few verses whe the LITV in inline with the NASB you quoted.

Php 4:20, "Now to our God and Father be the glory forever and ever. Amen." (NASB)

20 ¶ Now may glory be to our God and Father forever and ever. Amen. (LITV)

Rev 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (NASB)

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And those worshiping the beast and its image have no rest night and day, even if anyone receives the mark of its name. (LITV)

If you know the answer, please reveal as I too hold this question.

This is tough, because even the best of the Hebrew and Greek Biblical scholars can't agree on the basics like sheol, hades, etc. So, I don't expect we will know for certain when "ages of the ages" means an indefinate period or undetermined period(s) or an eternity. I guess it all depends on context.

Anyway, I'm outta my league here, but curious none the less.

Don't feel that way. I'm glad you are curious. So am I. I don't have all the answers. I know nothing. LOL I'm still willing to learn and correct myself though if I am wrong. Most of the time. :D

The terms 'forever and ever' are used differently in the Bible when applying to different people. Therefore, despite Free's attempts to link them together, we cannot interpret each instance of 'forever and ever' to be the same thing despite the same word usage.

What we can decide is that 'ages of the ages' is an unspecified period of time. It MAY be for all eternity, but not by its very linguistic nature and not in all instances.

Ooh, I just saw this. I have to agree with you. I said pretty much the same thing above.