Hell

[smaller]

Smaller,
A metaphor can only be ascertain so far, but one should not have a problem with non-entities such as death, sorrow, tears, false principles and etc being tossed into the Lake of fire to be no more.

I don't recall tears or sorrow going into the Lake but the point remains. There is without uncertainty things going into the LAKE and NOT coming OUT 'forever and ever.' From that point to say anything about SELECTIVE PLUCKING OUT becomes nearly UNprovable other than by imposed imaginations because we have ZERO evidence to the contrary regarding the LAKE. There is very little direct scripture on this matter of the LAKE OF FIRE to make such LEAPS as you tried in the previous post. Those positions can NOT be substantiated when there is clear evidence of TOTAL destruction. Selectivity in PLUCKING from that point on is directly contrary to examples of NON-emergence, to which even YOU seem to acknowledge.

You say, yeah, SOME STUFF is gonna be gone, except the STUFF I want out. Your desire on the latter portion is not available when we have evidence of the contrary SPECIFIED and locked down and in. Were there ONE example of ANY (whatever) coming out you'd have a basis. But there is no such basis. Only the opposite.

It is the actual entities of angels, mankind and Satan, that concerns what is purified. The question should be, is the Greek concepts of sulfur and divine purification correct?
Bubba

Look Bubba, there is no Satanic salvation or purification other than COMPLETE ERADICATION. To ask any believer to accept SATANIC SALVATION or PURIFICATION is quite utterly pointless.

You do understand that there is not one single scripture specified to Satan and demons granting them SALVATION or PURIFICATION in the Lake of Fire. That is a christian fantasy held in some camps that does not exist.

s

 

[Bubba]

The "hell" as the English used it in everyday life in the 1600’s:

Webster’s Twentieth Century Dictionary: "hell, n. [ME, helle; AS, hell, hell, from helan, to cover, conceal.]"

The "hell" of the 21st Century:

The American Heritage Collegiate Dictionary: "The abode of condemned souls and devils...the place of eternal punishment for the wicked after death, presided over by Satan…a state of separation from God…a place of evil, misery, discord, or destruction …torment, anguish."

"Does anyone believe that these two definitions of "hell" have anything whatsoever in common with each other? Then how is it even in the realm of possibility that the Christian definition of hell today can be a translation for a word that is also to this day, translated three times as "pit," and thirty-one times as "grave." Am I going to fast for anyone? "
L. Ray Smith

 

[Bubba]

I don't recall tears or sorrow going into the Lake but the point remains. There is without uncertainty things going into the LAKE and NOT coming OUT 'forever and ever.' From that point to say anything about SELECTIVE PLUCKING OUT becomes nearly UNprovable other than by imposed imaginations because we have ZERO evidence to the contrary regarding the LAKE. There is very little direct scripture on this matter of the LAKE OF FIRE to make such LEAPS as you tried in the previous post. Those positions can NOT be substantiated when there is clear evidence of TOTAL destruction. Selectivity in PLUCKING from that point on is directly contrary to examples of NON-emergence, to which even YOU seem to acknowledge.

You say, yeah, SOME STUFF is gonna be gone, except the STUFF I want out. Your desire on the latter portion is not available when we have evidence of the contrary SPECIFIED and locked down and in. Were there ONE example of ANY (whatever) coming out you'd have a basis. But there is no such basis. Only the opposite.



Look Bubba, there is no Satanic salvation or purification other than COMPLETE ERADICATION. To ask any believer to accept SATANIC SALVATION or PURIFICATION is quite utterly pointless.

You do understand that there is not one single scripture specified to Satan and demons granting them SALVATION or PURIFICATION in the Lake of Fire. That is a christian fantasy held in some camps that does not exist.

s

Smaller, please address the particulars in this quote, Bubba

"(Rev 21:8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The word ‘BURN’ means to CONSUME or combustion… it does NOT mean annihilation. It is a scientific fact that all matter can go through change into a new or different form, but it cannot be destroyed or removed forever. All FIRE is light and heat as one can see in the sun. The word ‘BRIMSTONE’ or SULPHUR comes from the Greek word THEION that also is translated ‘divine’. Sulphur was always used as a purifying agent and was used in all incense associated with worship of God/gods. The root word for this is THEIOO which means to make divine, to hallow and/or dedicate to a god.Thus ‘the lake of fire and brimstone’ should actually read ‘the lake of divine purification’. The word for ‘lake’ is LIMEN in the Greek (#3040): the word for ‘haven’ or ‘harbor’ is LIMNE in the Greek (#3041) from the root word LIMEN. So we can readily see that the lake is a confined place free from any outside influence while the fire of God’s dealing carries out its combustion and consuming work. For our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). The individual secluded with the fire of God is free from outside interference while the Fire burns up all the wood, hay and stubble in the life being cleansed. The brimstone or sulphur will remove all contaminants and bring the subject to perfection worthy of the Living God. Every word and action
instigated by the false prophet and the devil will be in that fire being purged out of every unbelieving man in his own order. Thayer Definition for ‘tormented’: 1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal. 2) to question by applying torture. 3) to torture. 4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment. 5) to be
harassed, distressed. 5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind. Nos. 2 and 3 cannot apply as they contravene God’s very redemptive nature.

THE BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET’S
(Rev 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast (nature) and the false prophet (such who propagate religious bondage with false hopes) are, and shall be tormented (tested over and over to measure the change of heart) day and night (= time zone) forever and ever (the affect of all ages upon the life are included).
The ‘beast nature’ of fallen, natural, carnal, duped man with all his records are present in the lake of fire awaiting to be released as fuel to the consuming fire that God is. Words, thought and actions that have manifested fear, unbelief, abominable and degrading acts, murders, prostitution, witchcraft and idolatry (anything that pushes Christ into second place or no place at all), all have to go before the spotlight of Christ for exposure, processing an disposal. It is a time of remorse, regret and repentance… in fact one hell of a dealing! …that will bring every knee to willingly bow before the Lamb of God.

THE LAMB OF GOD AND THE HOLY ANGELS ARE PRESENT ALSO
(Rev 14:10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (11) And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever (= the age of the ages, i.e., what covers all of time): and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image (seen in the mirror), and whosoever receives the mark of his name (see re-think No.12 on the 666 mark).
There will truly be much weeping and gnashing of teeth as each rebellious one is confronted with their life (thoughts, words and actions) placed alongside the provision and the life of Christ and is brought to acknowledging their folly. This whole dealing time of reconciliation and restoration (for nothing is lost) takes place in the presence of the holy angels (messengers of truth) who had and have influence in every life. The whole purification is carried out in the presence of the Lamb of God; Christ Jesus Who is the redeemer of all men and is personally present to declare His love to each one. God’s wrath is against all ungodliness and ungodly acts with zero compromise. He will utterly destroy all carnal thinking so that each is released from the effects of the Adamic life. Remorse and regret will be expressed with tears as each one is brought to face up to their words, thoughts and actions as one is brought face to face with the Lamb of God, the Son of God to whom all judgment is given. The result will bring to pass that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord… that He was and is fully in control of all things and all people.

(Rev 20:13) And the sea (of humanity) gave up the dead (those lacking the LIFE of Christ are dead), which were in it; and death (every aspect of sin and self) and hell (the effect within and without) delivered up the dead, which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire (the last enemy to be destroyed is death and hell departs for ever as fuel for this fire!). This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life (see re-think No.33) was cast into the lake of fire (for purification). ‘Forever and ever’ is not unending as we have been led to believe, but, as the Greek declares, it is for a set time broken down into ages of varying durations until the work of restoration is completed." Ray Knight

 

[smaller]

Smaller, please address the particulars in this quote, Bubba

"(Rev 21:8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The word ‘BURN’ means to CONSUME or combustion… it does NOT mean annihilation. It is a scientific fact that all matter can go through change into a new or different form, but it cannot be destroyed or removed forever. All FIRE is light and heat as one can see in the sun. The word ‘BRIMSTONE’ or SULPHUR comes from the Greek word THEION that also is translated ‘divine’. Sulphur was always used as a purifying agent and was used in all incense associated with worship of God/gods. The root word for this is THEIOO which means to make divine, to hallow and/or dedicate to a god.Thus ‘the lake of fire and brimstone’ should actually read ‘the lake of divine purification’. The word for ‘lake’ is LIMEN in the Greek (#3040): the word for ‘haven’ or ‘harbor’ is LIMNE in the Greek (#3041) from the root word LIMEN. So we can readily see that the lake is a confined place free from any outside influence while the fire of God’s dealing carries out its combustion and consuming work. For our God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). The individual secluded with the fire of God is free from outside interference while the Fire burns up all the wood, hay and stubble in the life being cleansed. The brimstone or sulphur will remove all contaminants and bring the subject to perfection worthy of the Living God. Every word and action
instigated by the false prophet and the devil will be in that fire being purged out of every unbelieving man in his own order. Thayer Definition for ‘tormented’: 1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal. 2) to question by applying torture. 3) to torture. 4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment. 5) to be
harassed, distressed. 5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind. Nos. 2 and 3 cannot apply as they contravene God’s very redemptive nature.

THE BEAST AND FALSE PROPHET’S
(Rev 20:10) And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast (nature) and the false prophet (such who propagate religious bondage with false hopes) are, and shall be tormented (tested over and over to measure the change of heart) day and night (= time zone) forever and ever (the affect of all ages upon the life are included).
The ‘beast nature’ of fallen, natural, carnal, duped man with all his records are present in the lake of fire awaiting to be released as fuel to the consuming fire that God is. Words, thought and actions that have manifested fear, unbelief, abominable and degrading acts, murders, prostitution, witchcraft and idolatry (anything that pushes Christ into second place or no place at all), all have to go before the spotlight of Christ for exposure, processing an disposal. It is a time of remorse, regret and repentance… in fact one hell of a dealing! …that will bring every knee to willingly bow before the Lamb of God.

THE LAMB OF GOD AND THE HOLY ANGELS ARE PRESENT ALSO
(Rev 14:10) The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: (11) And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever (= the age of the ages, i.e., what covers all of time): and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image (seen in the mirror), and whosoever receives the mark of his name (see re-think No.12 on the 666 mark).
There will truly be much weeping and gnashing of teeth as each rebellious one is confronted with their life (thoughts, words and actions) placed alongside the provision and the life of Christ and is brought to acknowledging their folly. This whole dealing time of reconciliation and restoration (for nothing is lost) takes place in the presence of the holy angels (messengers of truth) who had and have influence in every life. The whole purification is carried out in the presence of the Lamb of God; Christ Jesus Who is the redeemer of all men and is personally present to declare His love to each one. God’s wrath is against all ungodliness and ungodly acts with zero compromise. He will utterly destroy all carnal thinking so that each is released from the effects of the Adamic life. Remorse and regret will be expressed with tears as each one is brought to face up to their words, thoughts and actions as one is brought face to face with the Lamb of God, the Son of God to whom all judgment is given. The result will bring to pass that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord… that He was and is fully in control of all things and all people.

(Rev 20:13) And the sea (of humanity) gave up the dead (those lacking the LIFE of Christ are dead), which were in it; and death (every aspect of sin and self) and hell (the effect within and without) delivered up the dead, which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire (the last enemy to be destroyed is death and hell departs for ever as fuel for this fire!). This is the second death. (15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life (see re-think No.33) was cast into the lake of fire (for purification). ‘Forever and ever’ is not unending as we have been led to believe, but, as the Greek declares, it is for a set time broken down into ages of varying durations until the work of restoration is completed." Ray Knight

Sorry, I can't 'buy' Mr. Knight's guesswork because it implies SATANIC SALVATION, already addressed in my previous post, which specifics therein YOU may be able to address rather than just doing the cut and paste thingy and blindly INSIST that the view is credible.

No view is credible until it is EXAMINED for TRUTH.

I find NO TRUTH in a view that results IN SATANIC SALVATION for the reasons previously defined. Repeated assertions that do not like to STAND UP and face facts to the contrary SHOULD BE IMMEDIATELY DISCOUNTED.

s

 

[Bubba]

Smaller,
If Satan is ultimately brought to restoration, I cannot say, especially if Satan is simply a tool of God created evil from the very beginning. In respect to the rest of creation, Colossians 1:20 pretty much states what you will not accept. Note "all" in context of Jesus in the prior verses. In regards to "cut and paste", I am not here trying to "toot my own horn", but to show real consideration to a different view of Hell, then most know about.
Bubba
13who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate [us] into the reign of the Son of His love,
14in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,
15who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
16because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
17and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
18And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] -- himself -- first,
19because in him it did please all the fullness to tabernacle,
20and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
If Satan is ultimately brought to restoration, I cannot say,

Either or any of us COULD SAY if there were A SINGLE SCRIPTURE that specifies TO Satan or devils, salvation.

There is however NO SUCH SCRIPTURE. Not a one. As recounted prior, reconciliation does NOT equal or entail 'salvation.'

especially if Satan is simply a tool of God created evil from the very beginning.

I have no issues with EVIL, EVIL and invisible POWERs and EVIL entities as TEMPORARY TOOLS that will be destroyed in the LAKE upon Gods completion of uses for same.

In respect to the rest of creation, Colossians 1:20 pretty much states what you will not accept.

No, it does NOT. What you are insisting upon is refuted by SPECIFIC EXCEPTIONS in the text. Reconciliation does NOT automatically include 'every' thing is 'saved.' MANY things can be proven to NOT go on after reconciliation including our present earth. There will be DISOLUTION of many things and workings. Reconciliation is not a blanket ALL IN FREE card to EVERYTHING.

Note "all" in context of Jesus in the prior verses. In regards to "cut and paste", I am not here trying to "toot my own horn", but to show real consideration to a different view of Hell, then most know about.

And I've pointed out repeatedly to the view you are trying many flaws.

One of the major flaws in the impostion you are attempting is that ALL FIRES are for the same purposes or intents or that they are GOD HIMSELF. That is patently NOT TRUE. There was fire that destroyed and there was fire that burned and DID NOT destroy. There is PHYSICAL FIRE and there is SPIRITUAL FIRE and there is GOD AS A CONSUMING FIRE. None of these workings are required to be JUMBLED UP and MIXED as being for the same uses and intentions as your view ascribes to. I have pointed this matter out to some proponents of your positions and they just seem to miss the FACTS of the DIVERSITY of workings of these various fires, which are MULTIPLE in nature, uses and intentions.

Plucking a couple words about FIRES from S & G and then trying to CLAIM purification via the LAKE OF FIRE makes ZERO SENSE.

Those FIRES physically destroyed THE WICKED, just as THE LAKE OF FIRE will FINISH ANTI-CHRIST spirits OFF completely. Same fire? No. The LAST ONE will be PERMANENT ERADICATION. The FIRE of S & G is NOT FORCED to be the SAME FIRE or PURPOSE as the LAKE OF FIRE. To say they are THE SAME and IDENTICAL is fallacy and one or two greek words or hebrew words about FIRE do not make a complete picture. And by ALL MEANS tear into these facts and PROVE otherwise. I am not however inclinded to BUY the story of Ray K. based on the dissections of a couple of words regarding FIREs.

13who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate [us] into the reign of the Son of His love,
14in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of the sins,
15who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
16because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
17and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
18And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] -- himself -- first,
19because in him it did please all the fullness to tabernacle,
20and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.

I find no satanic salvation included in the above. Reconciliation CAN mean the complete eradication of THE WICKED and the DESTRUCTION of our present earth.

The insistence that EVIL POWERS, workers, or THE POWER OF DEATH is going PAST the reconciliation point is FALSE. There is going to be TOTAL DESTRUCTION of many things and powers by the specific statements of the scriptures regarding these matters.

The instant you concede that THE POWER OF DEATH will NOT go on and prevail, you have AN EXCEPTION to your intentions, and that is only the FIRST CONCESSION to the flaw in the theory of Ray K.

I have no reason to see the reconciliation of THE POWER OF DEATH other than to it's COMPLETE ERADICATION via 'reconciliation.'

s

 

[Bubba]

Smaller wrote:
"One of the major flaws in the impostion you are attempting is that ALL FIRES are for the same purposes or intents or that they are GOD HIMSELF. That is patently NOT TRUE. There was fire that destroyed and there was fire that burned and DID NOT destroy. There is PHYSICAL FIRE and there is SPIRITUAL FIRE and there is GOD AS A CONSUMING FIRE. None of these workings are required to be JUMBLED UP and MIXED as being for the same uses and intentions as your view ascribes to. I have pointed this matter out to some proponents of your positions and they just seem to miss the FACTS of the DIVERSITY of workings of these various fires, which are MULTIPLE in nature, uses and intentions.

Plucking a couple words about FIRES from S & G and then trying to CLAIM purification via the LAKE OF FIRE makes ZERO SENSE.

Those FIRES physically destroyed THE WICKED, just as THE LAKE OF FIRE will FINISH ANTI-CHRIST spirits OFF completely. Same fire? No. The LAST ONE will be PERMANENT ERADICATION. The FIRE of S & G is NOT FORCED to be the SAME FIRE or PURPOSE as the LAKE OF FIRE. To say they are THE SAME and IDENTICAL is fallacy and one or two greek words or hebrew words about FIRE do not make a complete picture. And by ALL MEANS tear into these facts and PROVE otherwise. I am not however inclinded to BUY the story of Ray K. based on the dissections of a couple of words regarding FIREs."


Much of Scripture when speaking of "fire" is figurative, that is a given. The 11 passages Jesus spoke of in respect to Gehenna and impending Judgment for the Jews was in regard to a very literal dump site and literal fire and literal worms that many of His very audience actual were thrown in during the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. Yet, I believe the Lake of Fire to be spiritual and not literal. The word "fire" is probably used more figurative than literal in much of Scripture:
SCRIPTURAL USE OF FIGURATIVE FIRE
"His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of FIRE" (Rev. 1:14).
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes though it be tarried with FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).
"And the tongue is a FIRE…" (James 3:6).
"And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of FIRE" (Heb. 1:7).
"Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).
"For our God is a consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of FIRE on his head" (Rom. 12:20).

"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the latchet of Whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE" (Luke 3:16).
"For EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" (Mark 9:49).
"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s FIRE, and like fullers’ soap" (Malachi 3:2).
"…for all the earth shall be devoured with the FIRE of my jealousy" (Zeph. 3:8).
"For in My jealousy and in the FIRE of My wrath have I spoken" (Ezek. 38;19).
"From above has He sent FIRE into my bones…" (Lamentations 1:13).
"Is not My word like as a FIRE? saith the Lord" (Jer. 23:29).
"Who makes His angels spirits; His ministers a flaming FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).

Smaller wrote:
"I find no satanic salvation included in the above. Reconciliation CAN mean the complete eradication of THE WICKED and the DESTRUCTION of our present earth.

The insistence that EVIL POWERS, workers, or THE POWER OF DEATH is going PAST the reconciliation point is FALSE. There is going to be TOTAL DESTRUCTION of many things and powers by the specific statements of the scriptures regarding these matters.

The instant you concede that THE POWER OF DEATH will NOT go on and prevail, you have AN EXCEPTION to your intentions, and that is only the FIRST CONCESSION to the flaw in the theory of Ray K.

I have no reason to see the reconciliation of THE POWER OF DEATH other than to it's COMPLETE ERADICATION via 'reconciliation.'"

Again Smaller, death, pain, sorrow and etc are not "beings", but yes they will be eliminated someday, I believe Colossians 1:20 is speaking of primarily of actual creation which includes "beings" on earth and in heaven. Again a metaphor has limits and the "Lake of Fire" is a metaphor of judgment, punishment and restoration.
Bubba

 

[walter]

I do not believe in Hell. I think this is a heresy that was introduced to control people through fear. The Bible does not say we will be tormented forever. It says the wicked will be destroyed.

This is not my work but I whole-heartedly agree with this. What is the Second Death?

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Revelation 2:11

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power." Revelation 20:6 In his efforts to misrepresent the character of God to the human race, Satan has succeeded to a startling extent. Introduced into the minds of men and women by the "father of lies", many of the misconceptions about God have become encased in human philosophy and passed on from generation to generation. They have penetrated all levels of human life, and have often been fostered even by the "Christian Church". Two of these false theories have had an especially strong hold on the human imagination. One is the idea that God is a god of anger and wrath, a cruel tyrant who has no reservations about subjecting His creatures to an eternally burning hell for failure to give perfect obedience to His arbitrary commands. But this is not the character of God.

What is this lake of fire and the second death that is said to be its result? Will the fire burn forever? Will those who are thrown there live in conscious torment for all eternity? For the answer, we must again allow the Bible to speak for itself. The scriptures use a great variety of expressions and images to describe the experience of second death. Read the following list carefully, paying special attention to the undelined phrases. In these are contained the secret of the "Second Death."

"For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth." Psalm 37:9.
"For a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Psalm 37:10.
"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 37:20.
"I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree. Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found." Psalm 37:35,36.
"Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more." Psalm 104:35.
"Consume them in wrath, consume them, that they may not be." Psalm 59:13.
"The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy." Psalm 145:20.
"Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee. Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the Lord shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them." Psalm 21:8,9.
"When the wicked spring as the grass, and when the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed forever." Psalm 92:7.
"For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been." Obadiah 16
"And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed." Isaiah 1:28.
"Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be consumed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that way against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought." Isaiah 41:11,12.
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the rpoud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be as stubble; and the day cometh that shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Malachi 4:1.
"The wicked are overthrown, and are not: but the house of the righeous shall stand." Proverbs 12:7.
"Do you not know this from of old, since man was placed upon the earth, that the exulting of the wicked is short, and the joy of the godless but for a moment? Though his height mount up to the heavens, and his head reach to the clouds, he will perish forever like his own dung; those who have seen him will say, 'Where is he?' He will fly away like a dream, and not be found; he will be chased away like a vision of the night. The eye which saw him will see him no more, nor will his place any more behold him." Job 20:4-9 R.S.V.
Phrases such as "destroyed forever", "perish", and "consume away", are often used to describe the final state of the lost. These terms are more significant when we are clear as to what they mean. Notice the following definitions from "The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language":

destroy - 1. To ruin completely; spoil so that restoration is impossible; consume 2. To tear down or break up; raze; demolish. 3. To do away with; get rid of; put an end to. 4. To kill . . .
perish - 1. To die, especially in a violent or untimely manner. 2. To pass from existence; disappear gradually.

consume - 1. To destroy, as by fire. 2. To use up or waste (time, energy, money, etc.). 3. To drink or eat up; devour. v.i. to waste away; perish.

Notice that all of these have the concept of something put out of existence.

 

[smaller]

Much of Scripture when speaking of "fire" is figurative, that is a given.

It remains disingenuous methodology to make ALL FIRE 'figurative.' I believe the FIRE that destroyed S & G was both PHYSICALLY real fire and pointing to the 'FIGURATIVE' final event of the LAKE OF FIRE. To say it was only one or the other is not true.

It is similar with the destruction of the inhabitants of the earth with a VERY REAL physical water, yet that same matter ALSO points 'figuratively' to the FINAL DESTRUCTION of the wicked.

Jesus used BOTH of the above examples AS LIKE matters in the N.T. in relation to the destruction of the WICKED. Like = figurative.

In the ways of God there is OFTEN first the natural or physical FIRE or WATER pointing to the LAST or FINAL WORKING which same is A SPIRITUAL matter. This does NOT mean the PRIOR events were NOT physical, as they WERE and those same events can also point FIGURATIVELY as in 'like' manner in the SPIRITUAL order of the destruction of the wicked. But to EQUATE them as EQUAL is not true nor is it required to understand.

The EVIL SPIRITS in MAN received FIRST a 'physical warning sign' in the PRIOR events. Those events speak to those same workings for A FINALE of SPIRITUAL proportions which SHALL destroy them. In both events the TEMPORAL HABITATIONS of EVIL were destroyed. In the FINAL SPIRITUAL event THEY will be destroyed PERMANENTLY. And they know this as well, as we can see with DEVILS speaking in the N.T.

Mark 1:
23 And there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit; and he cried out,
24 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God.

It can very well be that that SAME EVIL SPIRIT was IN a man of S & G and remained here ON EARTH after the destruction of THOSE MEN and KNOWS that God's intentions are TO DESTROY THEM.

Most views do NOT take the matters of EVIL SPIRITS into their ACCOUNTS OF Gods Judgments on the earth and rather see ONLY MAN. I see no requirement for NOT seeing THEM here and WITH mankind.

The 11 passages Jesus spoke of in respect to Gehenna and impending Judgment for the Jews was in regard to a very literal dump site and literal fire and literal worms that many of His very audience actual were thrown in during the Roman destruction of Jerusalem.

And that is YOU seeing ONLY JEWS. I have no use for such FLESH MAN views when there is CLEARLY other things going on that are NOT SEEN but we are EXPOSED to in the scriptures.

God DID deal with EVIL SPIRITS in the people of Jerusalem and HE SCATTERED THEM. This is not just a PHYSICAL JEW ONLY matter as the preterists see these things. The EVIL GENERATION has existed from DAY ONE in the Garden of Eden. That is the SINGULAR GENERATION of SATAN and DEVILS who have not yet passed away from the earth. Preterists CAN'T see this and see rather ONLY MANKIND as 'that Generation.'

And if you can't see the others, the EVIL SPIRITS that God DID deal with, not my problem. It's just A FACT and it won't CHANGE.

Yet, I believe the Lake of Fire to be spiritual and not literal. The word "fire" is probably used more figurative than literal in much of Scripture:
SCRIPTURAL USE OF FIGURATIVE FIRE
"His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were as a flame of FIRE" (Rev. 1:14).
"That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perishes though it be tarried with FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ" (I Pet. 1:7).
"And the tongue is a FIRE…" (James 3:6).
"And of the angels He says, Who makes His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of FIRE" (Heb. 1:7).
"Every man’s work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every man’s work of what sort it is" (I Cor. 3:13).
"For our God is a consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of FIRE on his head" (Rom. 12:20).

"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I comes, the latchet of Whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE" (Luke 3:16).
"For EVERY ONE shall be salted with FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt" (Mark 9:49).
"But who may abide the day of His coming? And who shall stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s FIRE, and like fullers’ soap" (Malachi 3:2).
"…for all the earth shall be devoured with the FIRE of my jealousy" (Zeph. 3:8).
"For in My jealousy and in the FIRE of My wrath have I spoken" (Ezek. 38;19).
"From above has He sent FIRE into my bones…" (Lamentations 1:13).
"Is not My word like as a FIRE? saith the Lord" (Jer. 23:29).
"Who makes His angels spirits; His ministers a flaming FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).

You have my response already to the above. There is going to be a FINAL SPIRITUAL FIRE that will PERMANENTLY eradicate EVIL WICKED anti-Christ SPIRITS. And no, there will be NO SALVATION, CHANGE or PURIFICATION available TO THEM. The BUCK of EVIL will STOP in the LAKE forever and ever....

Again Smaller, death, pain, sorrow and etc are not "beings", but yes they will be eliminated someday, I believe Colossians 1:20 is speaking of primarily of actual creation which includes "beings" on earth and in heaven. Again a metaphor has limits and the "Lake of Fire" is a metaphor of judgment, punishment and restoration.
Bubba

Sorry Bubba. You are for a FACT promoting the SALVATION OF SATAN, even while being COY about it.

Your view is DENIED by The Word of God who will assuredly DESTROY the devil and his messengers. There is no way around this matter and you have ZERO, exactly ZERO scriptures stating SATANIC SALVATION, period.

I would expect your view to be bought only by the gullible. I could care less if SATAN is totally destroyed IN THE LAKE. The only reason you are trying 'otherwise' is because YOUR VIEWS have also placed already YOUR FELLOW MAN therein and you are trying valiantly to GET THEM OUT. And again I say you have gotten AHEAD of yourself in PLACING ANY PERSON of MANKIND into that LAKE. We again have ZERO scriptural evidence of ANY NAMED PERSON going therein. You simply have a JUDGMENT error on your hands. I don't blame you, but I do know SATAN is trying to SQUEEZE IN on the SALVATION DEAL and that happens IN mankind.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Bubba]

Smaller,
You make a good point about “the flood†and Sodom and Gomorrah, and I see these events as historical and literal, but can you say the same of the “Lake of Fire†mentioned in the Book of Revelation a very symbolic literature? The interesting fact is that in Ezekiel 16 we see Israel being compared to Sodom as more evil, and then a very interesting thing is said by God...that Sodom would be restored (vs. 53). In respect to 2nd Peter 3:10, I will leave you this commentary:

Roderick Campbell
"Peter is preparing his hearers for the “fiery trial†which he sees looming in the days ahead—a trial which is certain to test their faith. His hearers have not yet fully grasped the significance of the great change introduced by the advent of Christ. The external fabric of the Old Covenant still stands, in outward appearance seemingly as secure and glorious as it was before (except for the rending of the temple veil). Some of the Christians are still clinging tenaciously to the ancient symbolic rites and ceremonies. From our vantage point it is easy to accuse them of lack of vision. But we should bear in mind that Peter and his audience were living in the midst of a persecuting world. Moreover, the destruction of their sacred city and temple was then imminent. Peter had heard the doom of their magnificent temple pronounced by the lips of Jesus—a doom which, Jesus said, some of the generation then living would witness with their natural eyes. In the midst of that crumbling world, Peter calls to mind Isaiah’s promise of “new heavens and a new earth.†By the eye of faith, he sees this new creation emerging from the dust and debris of that once glorious order of things which was so dear to every loyal Hebrew heart (cf. 2 Cor. 3:7). He and his hearers are standing within the threshold of the new age, an age which, although potentially and actually present, has not yet been made fully manifest to his hearers, who are no doubt still, for the most part, babes in Christ." (Israel and the New Covenant (Philadelphia, PA: Geneva Divinity School Press, 1954), 115.)

Bubba

 

[Elijah674]

Obadiah

[15] For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
[16] For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and [they shall be as though they had not been.]

No, God hellfire will do His 'Strange Work' as He Inspired it. The New Heavens + New Earth will once again be without Sin or Sinners! Even the location of where these places were 'partakers' will ALL BE RECREATED! Nahum 1:9

--Elijah

PS: You need another verse?? Mal. 4:1-3 finds that the fire has done it eternal work, leaving only ASHES. Or see Psalms 37:10, and even David had to learn this 'ASHES' Truth from Gods Sanctuary! See Psalms 73:2-17. You know, God's WAY IS IN THE SANCTUARY! (Psalms 77:13)

 

[Bubba]

Elijah,
I agree that there will be a time when there is no sin or sinners, but not by annihilation and certainly not by eternal punishment. In the latter, the majority of the human race will still be alive in torment, thus sinners still exist. There is a strong argument that Isaiah 65:17 was fulfilled in Christ and that believers live in this Kingdom now, thus the 2 Peter 3:10 would be Peter writing the Church that the whole Jewish System of religion was now shortly coming to an end. After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, there has not been an animal sacrifice since, and in Hebrews declares that Jesus ' sacrifice is once and for all time. John begins the Revelation with; "John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus", acknowledging that there is now suffering and yet still being of the kingdom presently.

Obadiah (YLT)
15For near [is] the day of Jehovah, on all the nations, As thou hast done, it is done to thee, Thy deed doth turn back on thine own head.
16For -- as ye have drunk on My holy mount, Drink do all the nations continually, And they have drunk and have swallowed, And they have been as they have not been.

I think it is safe to say that nations have come and gone before Obadiah and after and that judgment has been a ongoing process of God.

Nahum 1:9 (YLT)
9What do we devise against Jehovah? An end He is making, arise not twice doth distress.

Yes, I too believe the Lord will eventually bring all opposition to His ways to an end.

Malachi 4 (YLT)
1For, lo, the day hath come, burning as a furnace, And all the proud, and every wicked doer, have been stubble, And burnt them hath the day that came, Said Jehovah of Hosts, That there is not left to them root or branch,
2And risen to you, ye who fear My name, Hath the sun of righteousness -- and healing in its wings, And ye have gone forth, and have increased as calves of a stall.
3And ye have trodden down the wicked, For they are ashes under the soles of your feet, In the day that I am appointing, Said Jehovah of Hosts.
4Remember ye the law of Moses My servant, That I did command him in Horeb, For all Israel -- statutes and judgments.
5Lo, I am sending to you Elijah the prophet, Before the coming of the day of Jehovah, The great and the fearful.
6And he hath turned back the heart of fathers to sons, And the heart of sons to their fathers, Before I come and have utterly smitten the land!

Elijah,
As you can read, there is nothing about eternal punishment, but the passage ends with a great promise!
Bubba

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah,
I agree that there will be a time when there is no sin or sinners, but not by annihilation and certainly not by eternal punishment. In the latter, the majority of the human race will still be alive in torment, thus sinners still exist. There is a strong argument that Isaiah 65:17 was fulfilled in Christ and that believers live in this Kingdom now, thus the 2 Peter 3:10 would be Peter writing the Church that the whole Jewish System of religion was now shortly coming to an end. After the Romans destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, there has not been an animal sacrifice since, and in Hebrews declares that Jesus ' sacrifice is once and for all time. John begins the Revelation with; "John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus", acknowledging that there is now suffering and yet still being of the kingdom presently.

Obadiah (YLT)
15For near [is] the day of Jehovah, on all the nations, As thou hast done, it is done to thee, Thy deed doth turn back on thine own head.
16For -- as ye have drunk on My holy mount, Drink do all the nations continually, And they have drunk and have swallowed, And they have been as they have not been.

I think it is safe to say that nations have come and gone before Obadiah and after and that judgment has been a ongoing process of God.

Nahum 1:9 (YLT)
9What do we devise against Jehovah? An end He is making, arise not twice doth distress.

Yes, I too believe the Lord will eventually bring all opposition to His ways to an end.

Malachi 4 (YLT)
1For, lo, the day hath come, burning as a furnace, And all the proud, and every wicked doer, have been stubble, And burnt them hath the day that came, Said Jehovah of Hosts, That there is not left to them root or branch,
2And risen to you, ye who fear My name, Hath the sun of righteousness -- and healing in its wings, And ye have gone forth, and have increased as calves of a stall.
3And ye have trodden down the wicked, For they are ashes under the soles of your feet, In the day that I am appointing, Said Jehovah of Hosts.
4Remember ye the law of Moses My servant, That I did command him in Horeb, For all Israel -- statutes and judgments.
5Lo, I am sending to you Elijah the prophet, Before the coming of the day of Jehovah, The great and the fearful.
6And he hath turned back the heart of fathers to sons, And the heart of sons to their fathers, Before I come and have utterly smitten the land!

Elijah,
As you can read, there is nothing about eternal punishment, but the passage ends with a great promise!
Bubba

Hi again, Elijah here. I do not nor ever have believed in ETERNAL PUNISHING! Being BLOTTED OUT OF EXTSTENCE is what will be Eternal. Even this is called the Lord's strange act, but it will be done.

If sinners would just pause before they fall to sleep tonight, and [THINK] of going to sleep & never to awaken ever again.. NEVER NEVER AGAIN, because of their free choice? perhaps then they would understand what the Godhead has documented hell will do? Matt. 10:28

 

[Bubba]

Hi again, Elijah here. I do not nor ever have believed in ETERNAL PUNISHING! Being BLOTTED OUT OF EXTSTENCE is what will be Eternal. Even this is called the Lord's strange act, but it will be done.

If sinners would just pause before they fall to sleep tonight, and [THINK] of going to sleep & never to awaken ever again.. NEVER NEVER AGAIN, because of their free choice? perhaps then they would understand what the Godhead has documented hell will do? Matt. 10:28

Elijah,
I was not sure where you stood, in respect to Hell theology, I started out believing as the majority of Christians in eternal punishment, but I struggled with the whole problem of evil and a sovereign loving God. Several years ago I read a book by a guy name Fudge and began to see things differently and for awhile like the theologian John Stott I considered Annihilation as a solution to my dilemma. With Annihilation position you must deal with the fact that the majority of the human race will not live in victory in the next realm, which poses a big problem for verses like 1 Cor. 15:54-56 ;" "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?"
After coming across literature that showed that many of the words that have been translated for words like "eternal, destroy, condemnation and etc" are questionable. If you simply put the word "age" or adjective of age every place you read "eternal and forever", it is amazing the different meaning that it now takes on.
Bubba

 

[smaller]

Smaller,
You make a good point about “the flood†and Sodom and Gomorrah, and I see these events as historical and literal, but can you say the same of the “Lake of Fire†mentioned in the Book of Revelation a very symbolic literature?

You have my view on this matter. NOT figurative, but SPIRITUALLY LITERAL. The first fire of S & G was very real physical fire, but that fire did NOT do the final job on the devil and his messengers. It was a warning to THEM in men, just as the FLOOD was.

The Lake will be a spiritual fire to the extent that it will contain, torture and destroy anti-Christ spirits. For all I know they may even like it. They seem to be kinda into destruction anyway.

The interesting fact is that in Ezekiel 16 we see Israel being compared to Sodom as more evil, and then a very interesting thing is said by God...that Sodom would be restored (vs. 53). In respect to 2nd Peter 3:10,

You are doing a fairly good job as MASKING your position here Bubba. I will say again that there IS NO SATANIC SALVATION via the LAKE OF FIRE. It ain't gonna happen. I know your end game on this matter and it's not right nor is it TRUE. God IS NOT 'The Lake of Fire.' That Lake was PREPARED for the DEVIL and his messengers. God has not changed. IF you want to put PEOPLE therein you will be hard pressed to convince me that will be the case as I have noted prior. Once you got them in, now you are scrambling to GET THEM OUT, but you MUST take SATAN with you. That is where your game STOPS.

You might examine your basis for getting people in before trying to SAVE SATAN?

You have in effect exalted yourself ABOVE your unsaved neighbors on the basis of so called 'faith' and think you are going to PARTY OFF with God while THEY FRY awhile, even temporarily.

But NONE going therein are COMING OUT.

Check your basis. Faith works through LOVE.

I will leave you this commentary:

Roderick Campbell
"Peter is preparing his hearers for the “fiery trial†which he sees looming in the days ahead—a trial which is certain to test their faith. His hearers have not yet fully grasped the significance of the great change introduced by the advent of Christ. The external fabric of the Old Covenant still stands, in outward appearance seemingly as secure and glorious as it was before (except for the rending of the temple veil). Some of the Christians are still clinging tenaciously to the ancient symbolic rites and ceremonies. From our vantage point it is easy to accuse them of lack of vision. But we should bear in mind that Peter and his audience were living in the midst of a persecuting world. Moreover, the destruction of their sacred city and temple was then imminent. Peter had heard the doom of their magnificent temple pronounced by the lips of Jesus—a doom which, Jesus said, some of the generation then living would witness with their natural eyes. In the midst of that crumbling world, Peter calls to mind Isaiah’s promise of “new heavens and a new earth.†By the eye of faith, he sees this new creation emerging from the dust and debris of that once glorious order of things which was so dear to every loyal Hebrew heart (cf. 2 Cor. 3:7). He and his hearers are standing within the threshold of the new age, an age which, although potentially and actually present, has not yet been made fully manifest to his hearers, who are no doubt still, for the most part, babes in Christ." (Israel and the New Covenant (Philadelphia, PA: Geneva Divinity School Press, 1954), 115.)

Bubba

Your theory of the Jewish dispersal is NOT the matter of Matthew 25. We ALL still DO 'goat works.' There will be AN END to GOAT WORKS. Preterism IS BLIND.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Elijah674]

Hi, after Adam sinned what happened to the Tree of life? And who actually has immortality now, as it was the conitional for eternal life? And Rev. 21:25 through chapter 22:2 tell's us why we again have conditional immortality. And [ONLY GOD HAS UNCONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY!] 1 Tim. 15-17 + 1 Tim. 6:16.

OK: Hell? How can sinners be let out of hell to eat of the Tree Of Life? And even the maggots some teach. One guy on another site posted up that God lied and the devil told the truth in Gen. 3:3 & 4. But if you stop & read the bottom line of most all of the Rev. 17:1-5 ones actually teach, they teach that as truth.

--Elijah

 

[Bubba]

You have my view on this matter. NOT figurative, but SPIRITUALLY LITERAL. The first fire of S & G was very real physical fire, but that fire did NOT do the final job on the devil and his messengers. It was a warning to THEM in men, just as the FLOOD was.

The Lake will be a spiritual fire to the extent that it will contain, torture and destroy anti-Christ spirits. For all I know they may even like it. They seem to be kinda into destruction anyway.


You are doing a fairly good job as MASKING your position here Bubba. I will say again that there IS NO SATANIC SALVATION via the LAKE OF FIRE. It ain't gonna happen. I know your end game on this matter and it's not right nor is it TRUE. God IS NOT 'The Lake of Fire.' That Lake was PREPARED for the DEVIL and his messengers. God has not changed. IF you want to put PEOPLE therein you will be hard pressed to convince me that will be the case as I have noted prior. Once you got them in, now you are scrambling to GET THEM OUT, but you MUST take SATAN with you. That is where your game STOPS.

You might examine your basis for getting people in before trying to SAVE SATAN?

You have in effect exalted yourself ABOVE your unsaved neighbors on the basis of so called 'faith' and think you are going to PARTY OFF with God while THEY FRY awhile, even temporarily.

But NONE going therein are COMING OUT.

Check your basis. Faith works through LOVE.



Your theory of the Jewish dispersal is NOT the matter of Matthew 25. We ALL still DO 'goat works.' There will be AN END to GOAT WORKS. Preterism IS BLIND.

enjoy!

smaller

Smaller,
I am having a hard time even undrstanding what you are talking about. Could you simply tell me what you believe about the condition of man, before and after they become saved. Also, I am not masking anything, so you escape me there as well.
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Elijah,
I believe the “Tree of life†is Jesus, and there was an actual tree in the Garden that our first parents ate from but the greater meaning is Jesus. We have our immortality In Jesus alone and since I am a Universalist, I believe all creatures both angelic and human will someday be restored, thus complete victory over sin, death and man’s conditional state. Also, the character of God’s love will be seen in fullness, when we dine at the banquet table of our Lord Jesus.

 

[Elijah674]

Elijah,
I believe the “Tree of life†is Jesus, and there was an actual tree in the Garden that our first parents ate from but the greater meaning is Jesus. We have our immortality In Jesus alone and since I am a Universalist, I believe all creatures both angelic and human will someday be restored, thus complete victory over sin, death and man’s conditional state. Also, the character of God’s love will be seen in fullness, when we dine at the banquet table of our Lord Jesus.

Hi, I can't read & do not try to read minds. (hearts) It is scripture that is important to me. The WORD ARE CHRIST'S WORDS! There are none of His Words above. And the words are not His. So they are worthless to me. Matt. 4:4 [AND NO OFFENSE MEANT!] So you do not believe Chtist's Words are the last WORD?

--Elijah

 

[Bubba]

Elijah
Obviously you do not see or understand the countless types of Christ (not literal)expounded upon in the Old Testament Scriptures, which Jesus commented on to the two disciples on the way back to Emmaus,” Then he said to them, ‘Oh, how foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have declared! Was it not necessary that the Messiah should suffer these things and then enter into his glory?’ Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them the things about himself in all the scriptures.” The only Scripture at this time was the O.T.. Nor do you take serious Scripture such as 1Tmothy 4:10 (Young's Literal Translation), for this we both labour and are reproached, because we hope on the living God, who is Saviour of all men -- especially of those believing.” And 1 John 2:2, “ 2and he -- he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world”. In respect to the restoration of all things we have Col.1:20, “and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens”. In regards to the “Tree of Life”, we have Jesus in John 5:24 saying,” 24`Verily, verily, I say to you -- He who is hearing my word, and is believing Him who sent me, hath life age-during, and to judgment he doth not come, but hath passed out of the death to the life”, how else can you interpret where our immortality comes from?
Bubba