Hellfire texts explained as annihilation

[BenJasher]

The cannot debug error message is a symptom of a sick and dying php script. Little fluke bugs like this, as well as an inherent vulnerability to hackers is common with PhpBB, which is the script in use here.

 

[Bick]

Annihilation?

Heidi, I have been having the same problemwhen just trying to post to this thread.

It says 'cannot debug' and gives a whole bunch of words.

I don't know if this will post.

Bick

 

[Bick]

Annihilation?

delete

 

[SputnikBoy]

I can tell that there are a few people who are part of a denomination, that teaches this stuff..by the way he/she explains away the issue of hell/sabbath/church ect.. It's the exact words I've heard hundreds of times, for over 20 years before.

Has guibox presented ANYTHING other than the scriptures to back up the concept of annihilation, Servant? If he has, could you bring them to our attention and refute them if necessary?

Myeslf, I do use the Bible alone. However they do not. They use the writings of Ellen White as "training wheels" to endorse their beliefs by claiming she was a prophet who had new revelations about the Bible. Many have been proven false by proof of her being a plagiarist.

Again, where has any other source but the Bible been used here, Servant? Come on, you're raising the red herring here. Where are these 'other SDA sources' that you refer to?

How can they, or anyone read Revelation 20:10 about the devil, the beast and the false prophet being thrown into the lake of fire where "they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" and then in verse 15 it says "if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire", and think this is just annihilation? Tormented day and night forever and ever is not a literal statement, it's reality.

Because, Servant, the Bible consistently tells us that the wicked will PERISH or be destroyed. P-E-R-I-S-H! D-E-S-T-R-O-Y-E-D! If you check the definition of these words there is nothing literally 'eternal' about them. One cannot perish continuously. One cannot be destroyed continuously. One need not be a Rhodes Scholar to understand this. And yet ...

Therefore, those references found in the highly symbolic book of Revelation are illustrative terms that are, obviously, being lost on those who are too steeped in their traditional beliefs to see them. Can you honstly not see this or are you merely reluctant to let go of a cherished myth?

I do not know who the antichrist is or the false prophet. However, according to their teaching system, this is the pope and his agents who plan to force everyone to worship on Sunday, therefore receiving the mark of the beast. Yeah....right. Talk about a vendetta against a denomination.

Another red herring thrown in merely in an attempt to discredit the SDA church. This thread is about hell.

I've heard this quote: "The best view one can have of God is from hell". That has a lot of emphasis, as we do not know the full results of what our sin does and unless we have forgiveness through Jesus, the end results will be eternally tragic. I'm quite sure that many people regret believeing the teaching of being annihilated when they find themselves in hell for forever. Eternity is a long time to be wrong about this.

But this won't happen because hell is not eternal. And, I seriously doubt that anyone will be a candidate for hell simply because they didn't believe in an eternal hell!

It's so typical of SDA's to spread the idea that those who leave their denomination are bitter towards someone. They can't accept that people do study their way out of Adventism by reading the Bible alone, without any SDA propaganda influences.

You really DO have it in for the SDAs, don't you Servant? The topic is hell.

Trying to convince everyone and yourself that you are not influenced by Ellen White's teachings and writings is hogwash. That's what the base of Adventism is built upon. Not the Bible, but her so-called visions. To deny this is a flat out lie!

Again ...please present to this thread those teachings of Ellen White that have contributed to the annihilation argument. I have not seen anything used other than the Bible.

I would like to add..that..I never said anyone who teaches annihilation is hellbound.

Didn't you imply that a few statements back?

I do say that it's not what the Bible teaches. Jesus described hell is described as fire, and a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth, torment, a place of deepest darkness, gloomy dungeons, etc. This is hardly annihilation! Whose words are you going to believe? Jesus or Ellen White's?

We're to believe those scriptures that have been presented by guibox ...on numerous occasions, I might add. I've seen nothing of Ellen White but I would once again challenge you to bring them to our attention if you would. Perhaps I've missed them.

It's quite clear that hell is eternal.

Hell is eternal? While you're presenting those writings of Ellen White that have been used to support the concept of annihilation, would you also present ANY scripture at all that supports 'eternal hell'?

 

[Heidi]

Re: Annihilation?

Heidi, I have been having the same problemwhen just trying to post to this thread.

It says 'cannot debug' and gives a whole bunch of words.

I don't know if this will post.

Bick

Thanks, Bick. Maybe after this interlude it will work. I'll try it!

 

[Heidi]

Re: Annihilation?

Heidi, I have been having the same problemwhen just trying to post to this thread.

It says 'cannot debug' and gives a whole bunch of words.

I don't know if this will post.

Bick

Actually I just tried to post and it wouldn't work. I don't even know if this reply will post.

 

[Drew]

How can they, or anyone read Revelation 20:10 about the devil, the beast and the false prophet being thrown into the lake of fire where "they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever"...

As has been repeatedly pointed out, there are OT texts which describe the destruction of physical places using words like "eternal" and "forever". To be fair to you, a "plain reading" of some NT texts does suggest eternal torment. However, and this is a huge however, I find the argument that we must allow the Bible to "define its own terminology" to be exceedingly compelling.

So when OT texts use terms like "forever" and "eternal" to refer to events that we know about from good old fashioned observation (for example, Edom is still not burning), we should understand that a "plain" reading can be a naive and "localized" reading - one that does not account for Biblical precedent regarding how these words are actually used.

 

[guibox]

Any scriptures that are posted as facts are rejected by those of you who believe in annihilation. The stale mate continues. There is a stubborn spirit that is presiding.
Do you want to continue to bang heads like some mountain rams in battle for superiority of territory and mate? Each one believes they are speaking truth... so what more do you want?.....This debate is about as stale mate as the other topics they bring to this board full of those of us they call fundamentalists and a bunch of other names. I see why many of the older members stay out of it once they have placed a couple of posts the prove contrary to what the annihilation theorists post. Yep, State Mate.

I have not rejected your scripture texts. I have shown that the Bible's metaphorical usage of the language elsewhere, combined with the flowing thought and numerous scriptures preaching clear annihilation fully explain your texts in exegetical context.

This is not ignoring or 'rejecting'. It is analyzing, proof texting and allowing the bible instead of Greek philosophy and man-made peconceived ideas determine the meaning. You know, the way the Bible should be studied?

I have yet to see a rational explanation on the clear teaching scriptures of annihilation without trying to interpret them with the apocalyptic teachings of Revelation.

Far from a stalemate, Relic.

 

[CP_Mike]

I can tell that there are a few people who are part of a denomination, that teaches this stuff..by the way he/she explains away the issue of hell/sabbath/church ect.. It's the exact words I've heard hundreds of times, for over 20 years before.

Myeslf, I do use the Bible alone. However they do not. They use the writings of Ellen White as "training wheels" to endorse their beliefs by claiming she was a prophet who had new revelations about the Bible. Many have been proven false by proof of her being a plagiarist.

I am not 'SDA', but I believe annihilation to be true.

How can they, or anyone read Revelation 20:10 about the devil, the beast and the false prophet being thrown into the lake of fire where "they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever" and then in verse 15 it says "if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire", and think this is just annihilation? Tormented day and night forever and ever is not a literal statement, it's reality.

Absolutely. The smoke of their torment is exclusively for the beast, the false prophet and the devil for ever, because of the nature of their rebellion against God. Then comes the ones you are not in the book of life.

Here is something from 'Workshop', its not online, but is a non denominational teaching course.

Annihilation or inferno
Whether the final destiny of someone in rebellion against God is 'eternal suffering' or 'eternal punishment' is a much debated subject. The traditional interpretation of the concept of 'Hell' is that it is a realm of unending punishment in the form of eternal suffering; the ceaseless conscious experience of torment and anguish. Augustine described it as :-
'A literal fire, people kept burning without being consumed,
in pain without dying, by the miraculous power of God'.
This notion has of course been violently attacked down through the centuries, saying that it leaves God nothing more than a cosmic sadist. One can understand the emotional reaction to such a notion but what do the scriptures say. Discussion on this subject has always been a highly contentious issue, and we must say that any conclusions we may draw must be tentative. Let us make the following observations :-
• Use biblical language with care : the New Testament says very little about the actual nature of eternal punishment; it sees the heart of it as a breaking of relationship with God rather than lurid descriptions. Its burden is to turn people towards God while they have the chance to embrace salvation. The image of Gehenna, "The Valley of Hinnom' does not help too much [cf Mat 10:28; Mk 9:43-47] as it is simply the place of abomination; once used as a site for child sacrifice, in New Testament times it was the city rubbish pit The 'Rich man and Lazarus' story [Lk 16:19-31] needs treating carefully as it is almost certainly just using popular Jewish apocalyptic images, current in the talk of Jesus' hearers; not literal.
• The biblical basis is weak : The case for 'eternal suffering' rests primarily upon the belief in the 'immortality of the soul', which we have already seen is not biblical. It is reinforced with the statement in Revelation 20:10 which says the Devil, the beast and the false prophet are 'tormented day and night for ever and ever' [we shall make more specific comment upon this verse below].
• Language of finality : Careful examination of the scriptures that speak about God's final sentence upon those who oppose him reveal phrases like 'outer darkness' [Mat 25:30], 'eternal fire' [Mat 25:41], 'eternal punishment' [Mat 25:46], 'unquenchable fire' [Mk 9:43], 'eternal destruction' [2Th 1:9], 'eternal judgment' [Heb 6:2]. This catalogue of phrases emphasises the horrific quality and permanence of the punishment, rather than quantity and unending suffering. 'Eternal punishment' is an act of judgment the effects of which cannot be reversed. 'Eternal [unquenchable] fire' speaks of the nature of the fire and emphasises the impossibility of escape, rather than everlasting burning. It suggests the final destruction and annihilation of the individual consumed or enveloped by the unending flame or darkness. A fullstop rather than an unfinished sentence.
• Inescapable punishment : Reaction against annihilation usually suggests that the individual concerned somehow escapes the full deserts of their just punishment. We are not suggesting this at all. The error of most annihilationist teaching is that sinners pass into oblivion at death and that only the just are raised. This is clearly not biblical. Neither are we saying the total annihilation alone would be punishment enough, though God knows it could be. Our argument is that sinners will be raised to judgment. They will see the greatness of the glory to God. They will have no alternative but to acknowledge Jesus as Lord and Christ. They will have their every action and secret motive exposed for what it was. They will see all that the salvation which they rejected could have made possible for them, all their potential in God now gone for ever. They will face the full consuming wrath anguish, 'wailing and gnashing of teeth'. Only when sentence has been passed and the full and just punishment has been received will it be climaxed by the oblivion and annihilation of eternal destruction.
• Qualitative not quantitative : One has to ask what purpose eternal torment and unending suffering can achieve. If Jesus could receive the punishment for the sin of the whole world in the hours on the cross, is it not more likely that God's final punishment upon an individual's rebellion can be qualitative rather than quantitative?
• A difficult scripture : The only scripture that does seem to clearly suggest eternal suffering for unbelievers is in Revelation 14:10-11 :-
' ... tormented with fire and sulphur ...
the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever,
and they have no rest day or night'.
However, this may not mean conscious eternal suffering; 'the smoke of their torment' may refer only to the means of their destruction, 'no rest day and night' may mean simply 'while it continues', but then oblivion. It is clear from Revelation 20:10 that Satan, the beast and the false prophet suffer eternal torment; but the nature of their rebellion is unique. Even here there are those who argue on the basis of Ezekiel 28:19 [Tyre being a picture of Satan] that even their end will be total destruction. This exegesis is also open to variety of opinion.
If eternal punishment does end in annihilation it will only be after the justice of God has been fully satisfied. If in fact it involves eternal suffering it will be seen to be embraced by the love of God; though it may at the moment be beyond our understanding. Whatever the result, the truth remains. 'It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God' [Heb 10:31]. What is certain is that God's judgment will be so awesome and so perfect that there will remain no basis upon which to accuse him of error or injustice of any kind. All who have ever lived will stand in bumbfounded silence, but not silenced, at God's incredible justice.

 

[Free]

Absolutely. The smoke of their torment is exclusively for the beast, the false prophet and the devil for ever, because of the nature of their rebellion against God. Then comes the ones you are not in the book of life.

So let me see: Those whose names aren't written in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire but they are annihilated whereas the beast, false prophet and the devil are tormented forever. Not only that, those whose names weren't written in the book of life rebelled against God, which is why their names were absent.

Not only that, further down in your post you have written/copied:

"A difficult scripture : The only scripture that does seem to clearly suggest eternal suffering for unbelievers is in Revelation 14:10-11 :-
' ... tormented with fire and sulphur ...
the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever,
and they have no rest day or night'."

That contradicts what you stated - "The smoke of their torment is exclusively for the beast, the false prophet and the devil for ever".

How does all that cohere with what you've written?


Can an annihilationist please answer the following: Is the lake of fire, the "second death," the place of annihilation?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Can an annihilationist please answer the following: Is the lake of fire, the "second death," the place of annihilation?

I'm not exactly sure of the question, but yes ...I do believe that the 'second death' is the place of annihilation as you put it. The first death is the physical death - old age, illness, disease, accident, etc.

There will also be a physical death for the unrighteous who are still alive at Jesus' coming. They will be consumed by the brightness of His coming and will physically die. In both instances, this is the 'first death' but not the FINAL death.

The righteous dead will, of course, be raised incorruptable. The righteous alive at the time of Jesus' coming will not taste death - either physical or spiritual - at all.

 

[Free]

Rev 21:7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
Rev 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

How can this be if unbelievers have been annihilated? Doesn't this imply that they are not annihilated?

 

[yesha]

Rev 20:14
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
(NIV)

Unless you think that death and Hades are to suffer eternal torment, clearly the lake of fire, and therefore the second death, symbolizes destruction. It is a garbage dump, that destroyes the things cast in it.

If something immortal, that cannot be destroyed, is thrown in it, then eternal torment makes sense. However anything that can, will. So the question is do you believe that man is immortal?

Gen 3:22
22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
(NIV)

Matt 10:28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
(NIV)

(notice that hell destroys both soul and body - the whole person)

II Th 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power
(NIV)

Makes sense to me.

 

[yesha]

Rev 21:7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."

They will die, be destroyed, ect...

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

How can this be if unbelievers have been annihilated? Doesn't this imply that they are not annihilated?

No. They are outside the city, they do not have access to the tree of life. They will die, and be destroyed. They are not immortal.

 

[Vic C.]

...No. They are outside the city, they do not have access to the tree of life. They will die, and be destroyed. They are not immortal.

Heh before I even saw this post I did a search for "Tree of Life" in the NT and came up with only three usages.

(Rev 2:7 KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

(Rev 22:2 KJV) In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

(Rev 22:14 KJV) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[Free]

So did Paul lie when he said that we are raised immortal, that we will change in the twinkling of an eye and "put on incoruptibility"? Or do we have to eat of the Tree of Life to become immortal?

What is funny is some have argued that the Second Death doesn't harm the Overcomers because they are raised immortal, yet they have not partaken of the Tree of Life.

 

[guibox]

So did Paul lie when he said that we are raised immortal, that we will change in the twinkling of an eye and "put on incoruptibility"? Or do we have to eat of the Tree of Life to become immortal?

What is funny is some have argued that the Second Death doesn't harm the Overcomers because they are raised immortal, yet they have not partaken of the Tree of Life.

Paul is correct. However, keep in mind that our immortality (like Adam's was) is completely dependant upon God. Perhaps we will need to eat from the tree of life to FURTHER and MAINTAIN our immortality.

Either way, I don't really know what this has to do with the topic at hand.

However, if you really read 1 Corinthians 15, Free, you will see that Paul's emphasis to eternal life period is wrapped up in the resurrection not in an immortal soul at death. Immortality, death being conquered, the power of death being vanquished, all of these occur at the resurrection, not at death.

DON'T MISS THIS NEXT PART, FREE AND SOLO....

So if:

1) immortality is ONLY acheived at the resurrection,
2) and this immortality is finally realized in a new incorruptible body and not an unfleshy 'soul,
3) and this only occurs for the righteous (i.e. it is a gift of God)

then how can the wicked possibly have immortal souls or even immortal bodies that will burn forever?

 

[SputnikBoy]

Hmmm ....a good point that we all seem to have previously missed. Indeed, how can they?

 

[Solo]

If the first death isn't final, what makes you think that the second death is final. I suspect that syntax is the hangup for your understanding and your inability to understand God's eternal justice is at question. I take his word in faith, and if it is as he says it is, then so be it. If it is different than that then so be it. Jesus says that there is eternal punishment and eternal fire and eternal life, and both the goats and sheep experience one or the other, therefore I believe it. It doesn't matter to me if it seems terrible to my finite understanding or not, if God says it is so, then so be it. I think no less of his love because of it. In fact I think more of his love because we all deserve eternal punishment and fire, and in his love he provided a way to escape it through his only begotten son, Jesus Christ.

 

[SputnikBoy]

I acknowledge that no one has all of the answers surrounding this and other scriptural issues, Solo. We don't have the exact details laid out before us by God as in a blue-print. We don't know so many of the 'hows' and the 'whys' and we have to do the best we can with what we have. I'm not sure whether or not you're saying this in a half-hearted way, Solo, but if you ARE saying "I don't really know", then good for you. We should not be afraid to say that.

However, I really DO think that the basics of this issue are SO important to sort out as the outcome IS a reflection on God. We all know that no sin is worthy of the penalty of eternal torment. And, I do believe that we CAN apply this human thinking of 'uneven justice' to God ...even to a God who we otherwise can't begin to fathom.