Help! Seriously, these are the kind of arguments/rantings I am up against.....

[for_his_glory]

lovebutterflies we can not force anyone to believe in that which we believe in, but can only give what God wants us to give to others in His word for the time and purpose of His ministry and pray that someone will hear the Holy Spirit speak to their heart.

It's a tough thing to go into forums that are anti Christian or anti God and expect them to not come against your beliefs and convictions. If you want to continue in these type of rooms first be prayed up and ask the Holy Spirit to guide you for you never know who might come to the Lord by what you post. You really do not need to defend your faith to others, but only give that which God gives you to reach out to others and give with the same love and compassion that God gives towards us.

Another important thing to remember, never take offense of what others say to you, but always allow the light of Christ shine through you.

God bless your efforts.

 

[Gazelle]

I would suggest that you engage in only those that center around Who is Jesus. It's fruitless to argue anything else with an unbeliever, imo. (Unless you have loads of concentrated, uninterrupted time--like with Jehovah Witnesses in your living room.

If they see they can twist your words and twist you around.. like some do even here...then you won't ever get to your points, you'll be too busy answering their's.

 

[childeye]

So...I am on another forum, which is anti-religion but mostly anti-Christian. I go on there and defend my Christian faith. I find beautiful scripture to back up my faith. I am constantly ridiculed, called stupid, a fool, a robot with no mind of my own. This morning, there was this one. (It's a bit long). I feel lost and a bit defeated. Any words of wisdom, I would surely appreciate.
So, the following is a quote from this other forum (which I am starting to believe I should just get off and leave them be)

God's creation was originally perfect, but humans, by disobeying him, brought imperfection into the world. Humans are evil and sinful, and must suffer in this world because of their sinfulness. God gives humans the opportunity to accept forgiveness for their sin, and all who do will be rewarded with eternal bliss in heaven, but while they are on earth, they must suffer for his sake. All humans who choose not to accept this forgiveness must go to hell and be tormented for eternity.

Perfection Seeks Even More Perfection

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.

There is no definition of perfection here but the persons own. That a perfect God does nothing but exist. If that were true an imperfect God would do everything yet not exist. Moreover this person says above what did God do during the eternity before He created everything? No such concepts of before or after exist in eternity but only in time. He asked what disturbed the equilibrium and compelled Him to create? Nothing disturbed the equilibrium but creation is only a manifestation of that equilibrium. Was He bored? Life must always be energy in motion of some sort. Was He lonely? Well as He is a Loving God He would then desire someone to Love. This does more to prove the Christian God. For if perfection is not needing anybody and being alone doing nothing, this man's view of perfection is obviously death.

Perfection Begets Imperfection

But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

Error, God created man corruptuble so as to raise out of it incorruptibility and create perfection.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it.

No, the creator of a painting begins with a blank canvas and yet it is a perfectly blank canvass yet not yet a finished painting.

so humans must have been created imperfect.

No a perfect human can become imperfect due to ignorance of it's own perfection. Such ignorance is not an imperfection if placed there by the Creator so that knowledge can be perfectly valued.

What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

Conjecture based on false assumptions.

The Freewill Argument

The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy.

Depends on what you call a freewill. The term free is relative to ones values.

The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness.

As I said the term free in front of will is relative to ones values. Not all men vaue happiness the same. Moreover Love is a Spiritual presence, not the product of reason but the basis of reason.

But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe.

Not true. Mankind being gullible through inexperience were open to being deceived and so they did not freely choose to disobey but were tricked into it through subterfuge.

God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

As the circumstance of being created for the purpose of acquiring knowledge begins in ignorance, no blame is necessary. Also as God has purposed that men be able to learn and experience Love it cannot be said God has no control over the will as it is ever subject to knowledge and ignorance of the Truth and ever growing towards Him.

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

The first solid point, which is why free in front of will is relative not absolute.

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

A improper view of freewill. As the knowledge God has purposed that men learn is the knowledge of His Character there are no other options as the will is subject to the knowledge and ignorance of God.

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions.

God does not have a freewill that purposes to learn about Himself. His will is not subserviant but is the expression of His character that never changes.

If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect.

It depends, If one has a false image of God his choices will be as imperfect as his image.

Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

Please note that the perfect human is learning what is the perfect God. The occupants in heaven included the devil which is the epitome of vanity come to fruit, not of a perfect freewill.

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

Not at all. As the point of creation is to Glorify the creator all imperfections must exist so as to show perfection. Try shining a light in the middle of the day and see if you see any light in the light. No Light is seen for what it is in the darkness. Hence the christian says our lies have proven God true.

 

[childeye]

A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

But our sufferings define our wellbeing and brings forth thankfulness. The damned would be those who have not suffered. So it is that the man seen standing in fire is now in discomfort for all he knew was comfort in the world. And the one who was in discomfort in the world now sees comfort. At the same time on earth there is aboy rejoiceing and thanking God because he found a crust of bread and a man cursing because he found a scratch on his porsche.

Infinite Punishment for Finite Sins

You don"t understand that the men whose finite sins are infinite punishment are those who think finding a crust of bread is hell. Get some perspective here.

God is perfectly just, and yet he sentences the imperfect humans he created to infinite suffering in hell for finite sins. Clearly, a limited offense does not warrant unlimited punishment. God's sentencing of the imperfect humans to an eternity in hell for a mere mortal lifetime of sin is infinitely more unjust than this punishment. The absurd injustice of this infinite punishment is even greater when we consider that the ultimate source of human imperfection is the God who created them. A perfectly just God who sentences his imperfect creation to infinite punishment for finite sins is impossible.

As I said, what was deemed as punishment by the man with the porsche was seen as a gift from God for the hungry little boy. Which way is hell for God is a consuming fire that never consumes.

Belief More Important Than Action

Consider all of the people who live in the remote regions of the world who have never even heard the "gospel" of Jesus Christ. Consider the people who have naturally adhered to the religion of their parents and nation as they had been taught to do since birth. If we are to believe the Christians, all of these people will perish in the eternal fire for not believing in Jesus.

Who says they won't get a chance to believe in Jesus? Every knee shall bow.

It does not matter how just, kind, and generous they have been with their fellow humans during their lifetime: if they do not accept the gospel of Jesus, they are condemned. No just God would ever judge a man by his beliefs rather than his actions.

Ones beliefs make one's actions. Sounds like these just kind and benevolent people are already in tune with Christ. For that is the Spirit that is the light of man come in the flesh.

Perfection's Imperfect Revelation

The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word.

The bible isn't God's Word but testimony to Him. For God's Word is Spirit. Hence the Holy Spirit inspired the writers of scripture and we call this written word and it is fallible by misinterpretation.

It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible!

Don't forget to give credit to God for all the good things that you deem bad. Jesus suffered greatly and he is God. God therefore also suffered in this world He created.

The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us.

Actually Christ is the means for avoiding hell and he has already defeated our enemy for us. Some just don't believe that yet.

The perfect God has decided to reveal his wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect man, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect man.

Yes he revealed His wishes. Love you neighbor as yourself and Love Him with all you heart mind and soul. For He is Love.

No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self- contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which he has equipped us. Surely the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal his perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

Yes but scripture says God didn't want it decipherable by anyone lest He open their eyes to it. It needs be this way so that evryone knows it is Him who is wisdom and not us who are wise.

Contradictory Justice

One need look to no source other than the Bible to discover its imperfections, for it contradicts itself and thus exposes its own imperfection. It contradicts itself on matters of justice, for the same just God who assures his people that sons shall not be punished for the sins of their fathers turns around and destroys an entire household for the sin of one man (he had stolen some of Yahweh's war loot). It was this same Yahweh who afflicted thousands of his innocent people with plague and death to punish their evil king David for taking a census (?!). It was this same Yahweh who allowed the humans to slaughter his son because the perfect Yahweh had botched his own creation. Consider how many have been stoned, burned, slaughtered, raped, and enslaved because of Yahweh's skewed sense of justice. The blood of innocent babies is on the perfect, just, compassionate hands of Yahweh.

Much of what you say here are types for deeper things. To get to the point, it was Job who was an upright man who was beset with evil things that happened which he did not deserve. But through these things God was vindicated and so was man. God then restored Job so give God and yourself a break. After all evrything made is His to do with as He pleases. We might complain but the integrity of man relies in remaining thankful for the least of things given by God.

Contradictory History

If the Bible cannot confirm itself in mundane earthly matters, how are we to trust it on moral and spiritual matters?

As I said the bible is not the Word of God, it testifies to it. The bible didn't even exist at one point in time but God has always existed. You can't just find an uncrossed t and say there is no God.

A perfect God who reveals his perfect will in an imperfect book is impossible.

Well that is why Jesus said all the laws and the prophets can be summed up in love your neighbor as yourself and God with all your heart mind and soul.

The Omniscient Changes the Future

A God who knows the future is powerless to change it. An omniscient God who is all-powerful and freewilled is impossible.

Well He is not free of His own will to be against his will. That's impossible. But God does know the future and changes it, for He sent the Christ, which is the very energy that created the universe into the creation. The Creator entered His creation and changes it from the inside.
The Omniscient is Surprised

A God who knows everything cannot have emotions. Nothing is hidden from him, nothing new may be revealed to him, so there is no gained knowledge to which he may emotively react.

What? Emotions don't come from ignorance so knowledge doesn't make one unfeeling. Remember God felt everything as Christ that we feel.

We humans experience anger and frustration when something is wrong which we cannot fix. The perfect, omnipotent God, however, can fix anything.

Many times have I been angered at things I could not fix but God fixed them. Not the way i expected but He did remove the anger making what I was mad about not worthy.

Humans experience longing for things we lack. The perfect God lacks nothing. An omniscient, omnipotent, and perfect God who experiences emotion is impossible.

As Love He experiences everything we do for that is what empathy does.

Should any Christian who reads this persist in defending these impossibilities through means of "divine transcendence" and "faith," and should any Christian continue to call me an atheist fool, I will be forced to invoke the wrath of the Invisible Pink Unicorn:

That's pretty funny. Please don't let Christians turn you away from Love because many christians do err when trying to explain Jesus and there is an enemy to God that is ever causing division even mostly amongst christians. You are smart enough to know what is good and right by reading your words here. So believe it or not, you already worship God by this, you just don't know it.

As for me and my house, we shall choose reality. "

Love is real, and God is Love.

 

[Mike]

Lots of good stuff here, but I really want to encourage you to pray about what God would have you do. Consider that Jesus told Pontius Pilate the reason He came to this world was to Testify to the Truth. And when Pilate questioned Him about what Truth is, did Jesus prolong the conversation. No, He simply stated that everything he had was Given to him by His Father.

I wouldn't tell you to get out of that forum, but I would encourage you to prayerfully consider what this is doing to you. It sounds like this is having a negative effect on you; that you are burdened. If this is not a joy but "work" for you, perhaps God has not placed it on your heart. This isn't to say we only go where we are willing to go, but we need to know when it is becoming destructive to our walks. The devil would love to get you wrapped up in circular arguments and make you "run in place", but that's not productive to your own walk.

Another thing is sometimes (I'm not saying this is you, but it has been me at times) it is "pride" that prevents us from walking away. Sometimes we just don't want to be shown up, and it's more about us than God. "If" this might be true for you, that's more reason to walk away. It's our privilege to share the Gospel. He's Made His Revelation known to them, and He alone will break their hearts of stone. Matthew 7:6 says "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." Instead, share the reason for your hope in spirit and in Truth. Let them decide in their hearts what they will do with it. two cents

 

[Image of Reality]

lovebutterflies,
If you continue to frequent nonChristian forums be prepaired to come away with doubts. Years ago I did the same thing you are doing in hopes of “spreading the Light†and eventually had every belief I had in Christianity shredded from limb to limb. These are smart people your dealing with. Now I am an agnostic. Although, there still seems to be something in me that wants to believe.

 

[Navigator]

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.
Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?
The existence of Yahweh is as impossible as the existence of cubic spheres or invisible pink unicorns.


Ummm...Lucifer/Satan? lol.

And there's that pink unicorn argument again...2

I addressed that one verbatim in another thread..

 

[modernnihilst]

A novel idea I use, because as a Nihilist I neither deny nor confirm God's existence, is simply ask them to disprove God's existence in a fashion that would stand up to scientific scrutiny. I have heard quite alot of attempts from both side and neither side has managed to fufill the requirements of scientific scrutiny. The only honest truth I have found in the "there is/isn't a God" argument is that neither side can prove scientifically thier proof, yet. Mabye one day one side will but untill then attempting to rectify matters of faith with science is both futile and an excersise in lunacy.

just my 2 cents

 

[Chris]

lovebutterflies

Maybe what you need to do is change your thinking a little rather than your approach.

Our god is a big dude If he made the world and is creator of the universe he doesn't need your defending him against peoples opinions. God does what he wants.


I spend time on other forums too and found respecting peoples beliefs and not expecting them to constantly agree with or accept mine works well.

It says in the gospels not all are going to believe and that is what happens with people. some hate the gospel, some dont mind it, others respect it, others believe it.

I just talk to the people that want to hear about it.

Ps: Hanging around a place like you are talking about that is a good way of learning to doubt your faith.

There is no way I would waste my time at say an atheist forum because they have made their choices and can live with those choices as I have mine. No point disagreeing all day about it!

The best thing to do is teach people with no respect for other peoples opinions how to how to show respect and once that begins happening people might listen a bit.

I am not saying dont share your faith but share it to the ones who need it most, that are receptive to your words as you are to theirs.


Matthew 7:6

Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.