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Help Stop Abortion: Let’s all fight back.

Rollo Tamasi

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Yes. So far none of this discussion has impacted a Christian's rights. None of this discussion has impacted whether it's "christian" to have an abortion. If a Person considers it against their faith to have an abortion. That's completely fine. The issue I'm discussing with JLB is that they wants to bring in legislation to fight abortion. That then opens up an avenue to where now JLB has to fight against established case law and rulings.

Since the US and its states are secular governments, it needs more than a religious stance to argue the legality.
Are you what the world calls "pro-choice"?
I don't think there are any real born again Christians that are pro-choice.
Leviticus 18:21; "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord."
This is really really really the same as abortion.
Killing babies.
God is against it.
 

Milk-Drops

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Are you what the world calls "pro-choice"?
I don't think there are any real born again Christians that are pro-choice.
Leviticus 18:21; "And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord."
This is really really really the same as abortion.
Killing babies.
God is against it.
Yeah, I am pro choice and not claiming to be a Christian.

The entire discussion I'm currently having with JLB is not me discussing whether or not abortion is moral or good. Abortion uses to be illegal, but it stopped being illegal because of messy legal issues. Personhood vs Bodily Autonomy.

The large issue is that we as Americans have the right to bodily autonomy. Meaning no one can dictate how we use our bodies as long as we are independently cappable of making those choices. A fetus/baby is dependant on the Mother's body. So legally the mother is under no obligation to sustain the pregnancy.

This is where some states have made rulings on when a pregnancy can no longer be terminated.

The discussion is nuanced and complicated because bodily autonomy effects other legislation.
 

kiwidan

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A fetus/baby is dependant on the Mother's body. So legally the mother is under no obligation to sustain the pregnancy.

Before a child is born it is dependant on its mother but is still a individual human being. When a child is born it is dependant on its mother to suckle her milk and feed and they are still a individual human being. When a child is 5, 10, they are still under there mothers dependency for food and shelter and clothing and such, and also legally under there authority yet they are still invidual human beings. When a child becomes a adult and starts taking responsible for themselves and managing there own life they are still a individual human being.

There is no point from conception when someone is not a individual growing human being in my view and opinion.
 
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Milk-Drops

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Before a child is born it is dependant on its mother but is still a individual human being.
Yes, but the main legal argument is that the individual requires the mother's body to even sustain life. The way the American legal system has set up case law, a person is entitled to their bodily autonomy and determination. That means there is no legal demand for a person to support another if it involves one's body. These laws also protect living people from being forces to hive up organs.

When a child is born it is dependant on its mother to suckle her milk and feed and they are still a individual human being. When a child is 5, 10, they are still under there mothers dependency for food and shelter and clothing and such, and also legally under there authority yet they are still invidual human beings. When a child becomes a adult and starts taking responsible for themselves and managing there own life they are still a individual human being.
The legal difference is that the child is capable of being alive without the use of the mother's body.

There is no point from conception when someone is not a individual growing human being in my view and opinion.
That has not been my argument. The arguments I have given JLB are the ones they will need to overcome in order to ban abortion.
 

kiwidan

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Yes, but the main legal argument is that the individual requires the mother's body to even sustain life.
Just like homosexuals fought for there right to be free from persecution just for there belief, and the Jews fought for there right to life to be free from persecution just because of there enthnicity.

Im a true liberal and will always stand for human rights and personal freedom and condemn crimes aginst humanity. I live by 2 rules.

Rule 1. Everyone has a right to life and liberty. Respect other individual human beings and there private property. Every human being is there own private property.

Rule 2. Everyone has a right to defend themselves from those who violate rule 1. No one likes to be persecuted, assualted, used, or abused.
 
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kiwidan

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Nazis always trying to persecute a minority claiming they a burden in society, psychopaths still folowing the nazis cleansing ideaology thinking its ok and justified to kill human life.

May the Lord bless the family in this article who love life and are happy and have unconditional love for life and family. Respect. I love you. What an amazing beautiful family. I love thy neighbour.

 
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Milk-Drops

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Just like homosexuals fought for there right to be free from persecution just for there belief, and the Jews fought for there right to life to be free from persecution just because of there enthnicity.

Im a true liberal and will always stand for human rights and personal freedom and condemn crimes aginst humanity. I live by 2 rules.

Rule 1. Everyone has a right to life and liberty. Respect other individual human beings and there private property. Every human being is there own private property.

Rule 2. Everyone has a right to defend themselves from those who violate rule 1. No one likes to be persecuted, assualted, used, or abused.
The main legal problem is that it's a clash of rights. Bodily autonomy and life. Since no one can be compelled to keep anyone alive legally with their body, it is still a woman's right to determine her own bodily autonomy. In order to get around this, everyone would have to lose their bodily autonomy.
 

jasonc

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Then let the court decide based on all the evidence provided.


Example:


Was the woman in a nightclub wearing revealing clothing and getting drunk acting foolish and ended up getting raped in n the parking lot by another drunk patron?


What are the circumstances?


“If a young woman who is a virgin is betrothed to a husband, and a man finds her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city, and you shall stone them to death with stones, the young woman because she did not cry out in the city, and the man because he humbled his neighbor’s wife; so you shall put away the evil from among you. Deuteronomy 22:23-24





JLB
so wearing clothing makes you exempt from being rape ,if my wife was walking on the beach in a bikini and was assaulted in that manner that's not rape.

one consent isnt if you aren't sober ,underage ,mentally challenged .
being drunk in the army and you saying ok ,isn't considered consent ,plenty are at Leavenworth for that ,civilian side its a bit harder ,date rape is using drugs to inebriate others to get sex,it can include alcohol ,bit often is pills.see William Cosby and what he did.

going to a club in scantily clothes is a sin but not a crime .yes some women drink and get a buzz or drunk and link up with other men who as sober .not a good idea but the courts will have to prove it rape ,its easier to convict in the army on that but in neither case is it ok to say or allow she deserved it because she was loose.
 

JLB

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going to a club in scantily clothes is a sin but not a crime .yes some women drink and get a buzz or drunk and link up with other men who as sober .not a good idea but the courts will have to prove it rape


Actually the woman will have to prove it was rape.
 

JLB

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so wearing clothing makes you exempt from being rape ,if my wife was walking on the beach in a bikini and was assaulted in that manner that's not rape.

one consent isnt if you aren't sober ,underage ,mentally challenged .
being drunk in the army and you saying ok ,isn't considered consent ,plenty are at Leavenworth for that ,civilian side its a bit harder ,date rape is using drugs to inebriate others to get sex,it can include alcohol ,bit often is pills.see William Cosby and what he did.

going to a club in scantily clothes is a sin but not a crime .yes some women drink and get a buzz or drunk and link up with other men who as sober .not a good idea but the courts will have to prove it rape ,its easier to convict in the army on that but in neither case is it ok to say or allow she deserved it because she was loose.


Jason, are you trying to validate the murder of unborn children?
 

jasonc

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Jason, are you trying to validate the murder of unborn children?
no,sister and my older step daughter are victims of rape


one no victim should be made to charge their assailant ,its means your character is attacked in court,you,must relieve it ,many choose not to.

can't prove if they don't want to .
 

jasonc

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Actually the woman will have to prove it was rape.
your context and example is poor .

saying she deserved it because she looked like a whore is not gonna win anyone .

rape seldom is about sex ,its about power . otherwise only the sexiest women get raped that isn't true at all.
 

jasonc

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Who said wearing clothes makes you exempt from being raped?
you did here

wearing revealing clothing and acting foolish ,getting drunk ,and gets raped

that is an example .
my sister wasn't drunk ,often the rapist know their victims and seldom is in it a bar .

my sister it was a family friend and boy friend later on ,not in a bar ,step daughter it was her baby sitter ,yes women commit this crime too
 

jasonc

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one is also missing the point

.we already fund single mothers ,we pay for childcare,and healthcare .

I'm not for that broken system but it is there ,it encourages or doesn't address the cause .
 

JLB

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life
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wearing revealing clothing and acting foolish ,getting drunk ,and gets raped

This certainly doesn’t say wearing clothing exempts you from rape.


Why are you making up something I didn’t say, as thought I did?





JLB
 
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